Help me tame Lsi9

tapeshc

Not an audiophile so please bear with my terminology.

I am in the process of finalizing speakers for 2 channel setup.

Comparing Magnepan MMG/B&W 603 S3/Lsi9
Setup
Sony 555ES CD Changer
ASL AQ2004DT
Rotel 1090 (380 W/ch @ 8 ohms)
Monster THX Ultra interconnect.
Monster XP Pink speaker wire.
NILES HDSL-4 speaker switcher.

I will be going for Lsi15 but wanted to get a feel of Lsi, so got this from Crutchfield.

Problem: Lsi9 are too sharp, in the sense clarity is more than MMGs but that makes female voices very harsh. MMGs have a sweetness to them a very pleasant feeling. While Lsi9 although more clear but…….

Don’t think break in should be an issue as both the sets are new. Sensitvity is diff. but I do increase the volume for MMGs every time I switch.

B&Ws I will borrow this weekend from a dealer, so cant say how they will sound.

Help me here !

P.S. Build quality in comparison to my Polk RM7500 is very very poor. Specialy the grills, very flimsy. Black glossy finish is not glossy you can see lines on it. Wooden panels not properly aligned. RM7500 was superb in finish. I have seen Lsi15, even that was better than these.

Steve@3dai

Try removing the tube pre-amp from the system and report back. I just wonder if that's coloring the sound in any way, the LSi series is fairly unforgiving to equipment.

bigsexy1

If anything, wouldn't the tube pre-amp help to tame them? I know a lot of people with Klipschs or other horns swear by tubes.

tapeshc

It may sound dumb but every thing remaining same from cables to component, why one speaker would be too bright and other wont.

Please help understand this.

Though I will be getting new tubes to replace stock tubes, lets see if that helps. My problem is I cant afford preamp/proc that I wanted Rotel 1098 so I ahd to find this cheap solution.

Steve@3dai

Originally posted by tapeshc
It may sound dumb but every thing remaining same from cables to component, why one speaker would be too bright and other wont.

Please help understand this.

Though I will be getting new tubes to replace stock tubes, lets see if that helps. My problem is I cant afford preamp/proc that I wanted Rotel 1098 so I ahd to find this cheap solution.

I'm not saying that the tubes are the problem, I'd just like to see the output of the cd player to the Rotel just to minimize the variables.

Speakers can be bright, dull, flat, have a spike, all kinds of stuff. Infinity speakers are noted to be on the bright side, the tweeters they use, the crossovers, and the enclosure. It's all in what the engineers designing the product want to hear.

Tour2ma

tapescs,

Possible you are reacting to the point source tweets in the 9's vs. the Maggies' more diffuse ribbons.

You really have not said anything about speaker placement, but I'd guess your MMG's are toed in, and you may have done the same with the 9's. Try setting the 9's parallel with no toe in. In general you'll have to play with placement, but try this.

Also the liveliness of your room is a factor. Live is good for Maggies, since they are di-poles, but can make more traditional speakers sound harsh.

Frank Z

Tapesch,
Check your PM's, I sent ya one earlier.

organ

The tube pre is not the problem but IMO it could be solved with tube swapping. I own the same pre and don't have problems with bright/sharp sound.

First I need to ask you what tubes you're using? The stock JJ tubes that came with the pre is no good. Try to look into NOS or more mellow current production tubes.

The best tube to tame down the bright/sharp sound would be to replace the 12AX7 with a 5751 like this one: http://www.thetubestore.com/jange5751.html You should get a warmer sound where the highs roll off earlier than 12AX7's. The second step would be to look at some mellow or neutral sounding 12AU7 tubes. I find RFT to be neutral and a good compliment for the 5751. If you don't want to go with the 5751, I find the Svetlana 12AX7 to sound warmer with less harshness.

Maurice

tapeshc

Organ/Maurice

Well I didn’t know much about tubes and just read some write ups on the TubeStore website and ordered following. I ordered cheap ones because when you are not sure what you are doing its better to keep the bill low.

But now it seems one needs tube sense not common sense. Fingers crossed hope it will make a diff.

Electro-Harmonix 12AU7A / EH-12AU7 2 8.95
ECC82EH Tungsram ECC82 TU-ECC82 1 24.95
Sovtek 12AX7LPS Vacuum SO-12AX7LPS 1 11.95
Tube Ei ECC83 Low Noise EI-12AX7-LN 1 14.95
Electro-Harmonix 12AX7EH EH-12AX7 1 9.95


Thanks

organ

Oh man, you're serously going to enjoy trying out those tubes. Find the best combination for your system.

Here's my experience with the tubes you listed:

EH 12AU7: Very good dynamics and clarity. Good mids too.

Tungsram ECC82: Haven't heard them yet but I'm wondering why you only ordered one when the pre needs two?

Sovtek 12AX7LPS: My favorite 12AX7 tube. I keep going back and forth between this one and the JAN GE 5751. A lot of slam, dynamics and amazing on details. Produces a very lively sound.

Ei ECC83: I really enjoyed this tube until I got the Sovtek LPS. Ei sounds brighter than Sovtek but has very smooth mids. A very neutral sounding tube IMO.

EH 12AX7: Haven't heard this one.

Let me know what kind of results you get especially on those Tungsram. I bet the Tungsram will sound best. My favorite 12AU7 right now are RFT and Mullard. The RFT 12AU7 can be purchased cheap at www.triodeelectronics.com.

Remember to let the tubes warm up for 20-30 mins before critical listening. Enjoy:)

Maurice

*edit* Take the write ups with a grain of salt. The tubes reviewed on thetubestore were tested on guitar equipments where the desired sound is different than hi-fi gear.

tapeshc

AS I said, when you know nothing about a subject you better keep stakes low so I didnt buy two of them because it was $24.95, I would prefer not going wrong with that amount. So I will compare with one in one channel and see if it makes diff. then get another one.

Didnt go for Mullard, was supposed to be good but agin its costly.

The very reason I went with this low cost pre-amp is to listen to good music and stay married.

Thanks

Tapesh

Emlyn

Tapesh,
You may know this already because it's in the manual, but your amplifier, the Rotel RB-1090, puts 700 wpc into 4 ohm speakers. Polk only rates the LSi9 speakers to be compatible with 200 wpc amplifiers. While I know that it is unlikely that too much power will damage speakers, there may be a mismatch between your amplifier and the LSi9s. You may want to see if your Rotel dealer will let you borrow a lower output amplifier like the RB-1070 or RB-1080 to see if your experience with the LSi9s improves.

By the way, the RB-1090 is a great amplifier but I think it is best used with large full range speakers.

tapeshc

Emlyn

Thanks for responding.

I am a very quite listener so I am not even using that kind of power.

Why I bought this very high powered AMP. It will be good for any kind of speakers and more power means more resolved sound(thats my understanding, may be wrong).

shack

You may want to see if your Rotel dealer will let you borrow a lower output amplifier like the RB-1070 or RB-1080 to see if your experience with the LSi9s improves.

By the way, the RB-1090 is a great amplifier but I think it is best used with large full range speakers.

The only time too much power comes into play is at max power. Too much power should not even be an issue here.

madmax

Too much power can cause the speakers to sound like they are not loud enough when in fact they are louder than what you are used to with a lower power amp. (distortion is perceived as loudness before it becomes obvious). When you try to make it louder you apply too much power and damage something. Keep in mind we are talking pretty loud here.

Play a lot of different sounds on them. Loud, soft, heavy, light etc. Spend an intense evening with each set of speakers. Instead of grading every aspect of each set just look at how much you enjoyed the evening. That will tell you the right speaker to choose.

madmax

Tour2ma

Originally posted by madmax
Too much power can cause the speakers to sound like they are not loud enough when in fact they are louder than what you are used to with a lower power amp. (distortion is perceived as loudness before it becomes obvious). When you try to make it louder you apply too much power and damage something. Keep in mind we are talking pretty loud here.

Have read this three times and still can't make out what you are saying...

Are you talking about distortion due to overdriving a speaker or signal distortion from running out on the amp's curve?

Emlyn

Originally posted by tapeshc
I am a very quite listener so I am not even using that kind of power.

Tapesh,
I'm stumped. Neither LSis or Rotel amps are known for being harsh in the high frequencies. Since you usually listen at low volumes, the high power output of your amp is likely a moot point. If you have access to any other amp or receiver I'd suggest hooking the LSis up to it to see if your perception of the speakers changes.

I think the term you're thinking of with your LSis now is "sibilance". It shouldn't be coming from tubes, your speakers, or your amp at low volume.

Shell

Build quality in comparison to my Polk RM7500 is very very poor. Specialy the grills, very flimsy. Black glossy finish is not glossy you can see lines on it. Wooden panels not properly aligned. RM7500 was superb in finish. I have seen Lsi15, even that was better than these.

Are you sure you did not get a knock off of the LSI? I find the LSI contructions to be superb. The distorted high end sound and poor constuction just does not seem like the LSI, they have one of the best tweeters you can buy at that price.

Emlyn

Tapesh,
I'd overlooked the Niles speaker switcher you have before. Usually the H designator for them means they're rated for high power. Still, their limits are usually 250 wpc. If you haven't already, try removing the speaker switcher from the path for the LSi9s and see if that does anything.

madmax

Originally posted by Tour2ma
Have read this three times and still can't make out what you are saying...

Are you talking about distortion due to overdriving a speaker or signal distortion from running out on the amp's curve?

Distortion from running out on the amp's curve if I'm reading this right.

Try this, take a 100 watt per channel amp, turn it up until you first hear distortion then set it back a little. Listen to it. Measure the loudness if you have a meter. Now, connect a 600 watt plus amp to the same speakers. What you will notice is a few things. The speakers will not sound as loud at the same power (90 to 100 watt peaks). Turn the amp up until you think it is the same loudness and you will notice that the sound will carry MUCH further away from the room. To seem as loud as the 100 watt amp you will have to get to the same distortion point which the speakers may not like. If you measure the loudness again you will see a gain in loudness but you will not feel that it is louder. The distortion factor is what you perceive as loudness to some degree. If you are really thinking about this then keep in mind that the loudness you experience must be greater than the dynamic range of the source. What you perceive as loudness with no distortion present is the difference between the softest sound and the loudest sound within a small time period. The smaller amp can barely achieve this range. The very large amp moves up the scale, kind of like adding an offset, and still gives the impression of the same loudness (lowest level compared to the highest level). If you add the distortion likely from the smaller amp it adds to the perceived loudness. Obviously with the larger amp as soon as you reach the same distortion level the speakers give. Very strange I admit but a lot of years of living with 1000+ watt amps has proven this to me. Add this to Ripleys believe it or not if you wish...
madmax

tapeshc

Emlyn

I was doing comparison the old way but when it was very close then I started using the HDL-4.

Shell

What you said was the first thing that came to my mind. I remember when I saw LSi25 & LSi7 for very brief time I had a very good impression so I was shocked to notice all that.

But they are coming from a authorized dealer and Crutchfield has very good reputation so I stopped thinking that way.

Now I am thinking of visiting that dealer almost 160 miles from here to take a second look at the Speakers.

Thanks

F1nut

A few things....

Sibilance is a nasty little effer. It's cause is difficult to nail down, but it could be your room, source, wires, amp, etc. or it could be your ears. Some folks ears are very sensitive to it, mine are.

In addition to the good suggestions above, try some different IC's. MIT Shotgun and Cardas Golden Cross would be a good place to start and get rid of that Monster speaker wire while you're at it.

LuSh

I'm currently using a NAD intergrated, its been 5months now with my LSi9's. My system setup sometimes is too warm. The LSi speakers are some of the most forgiving speakers i've ever heard. The tweeter has NEVER EVER sounded bright or harsh. Almost to the point where I think the speaker should sound brighter in areas, but overall I was happier with these then Vertias or Paradigm Studios I had listened too.

In terms of build quality I found the LSi's to be the best constructed out of any that I had been pricing. The high gloss finish on top and bottom is not a Piano gloss finish, your suppose to see the wooden lines. These are not Def Tech's or Mirage OM series speakers. The grills are as stable as the other speakers I looked at. In fact I'd even go as far to say they look like they are worth their price without even having listened to them. Very very very strange.

The midrange, lower bass required a long break in period. It sounded like the speaker had 2-3 crossover points, instead of sounding like one complete speaker for about 2months. I was well aware of this before I bought the speakers so I knew it would take time.

I really am shocked at your displeasure.

madmax

A harsh CD player or Preamp will cause nasty highs. I just tried a different CD player/recorder and it was harsh and nasty compared to my others.
madmax