7.2 Monitor Series on VSX-1121, Advice Needed

MalVeauX

Heya,

So I have a bunch of entry polk audio speakers that I've gathered from new egg basically on deals that just seemed way too good to pass up. I'm using them currently for 50/50 music/hometheater. I used to be a 5.1 user, but after getting a new receiver, went ahead with the 7.2 instead and really like the immersion factor more, as well as simply looking at more speakers (dunno why, it just is pleasing to see lots of towers). Anyhow, the point of all this, is that I'm looking to see if I can improve things inexpensively or if I'm basically going to have to break out of entry level to see any solid improvement.

My receiver is a Pioneer VSX 1121. I grabbed it as an open-box to save costs and have been relatively happy with it. I liked that it had 2 pre-amp subwoofer outputs and that each channel terminal had plugs instead of just jamming wires around so that I could just terminate my cables with banana plugs and easily re-wire and swap things at a whim since I do that a lot. I'm not confident that it is powering everything at a performance level, but here's where the wise people of the forum come in. The issues I'm having with the VSX1121 is that I can't seem to just play back music where all the channels are utilized equally, so I use "extended stereo" for the broad image and it works, but I'm just wondering if there's a way to make it just go "all channel" like one of my old Onkyo's would do. For movies, it seems to do great in ProLogic Dolby Movie mode, and all my channels are used and it sounds great. But I'm just not sure if the VSX1121 is putting enough power into the speakers.

Speakers:

Fronts: Pair Monitor 70's
Center: CS1
Center (front heights): Pair of Monitor 40's (these do not get used unless I use a specific mode)
Surrounds: Pair of Monitor 50's
Backs: Pair of Monitor 30's
Subs: Pair of PSW505's

Overall, I'm underwhelmed with the Monitor 70's. Everything else on it's own seems to be great. But I've just always felt that the 70's were not doing much more than the 50's were, or 40's for that matter. I figured with 4 6.5 drivers, it would have a more filling effect and simply provide a lot more volume and fullness to the room. But maybe I'm under powered with the VSX1121? Here's where I'm wondering if it's time to add some discreet amplifiers to drive the 70's and let the VSX1121 drive the rest of the setup with it's decent power output for those smaller speakers.

Things I'm considering include getting a new center channel, a bigger one, like a CS2 or better. I'm happy with the surrounds/backs. I'm underwhelmed with the 70's. I grabbed them for $300 for a pair, so I don't feel like I totally wasted money on them, but I do feel like another set of 50's would have been indistinguishable sound-wise.

TL;DR:

Is the VSX1121 under powering my setup?
Would a larger center channel be really worth while yet?
Are discreet amps for the 70's going to be worth it or basically just "kind of" better?

Thanks for any consideration.

Very best,

tonyb

If you like all channel stereo, that receiver is probably only putting out 30 watts or so. All channel stereo is probably more demanding than surround sound on a receiver. What volume levels are you listening at ? Do you have the 70's set to large or small ? What are they crossed over at ? A better center will help your listening experience but first, go over your settings and see if you can tweek the sound a bit before kicking them to the curb.

cfrizz

The speakers are fine, what you are lacking is power, and unfortunately I don't think your receiver has preouts to add separate amplification. So you would have to get another receiver that has them so that you can get a separate amp. I would get at least a 5-7 channel amp of 200wpc @ 8ohms. It will cost more money, but you will have it for years with a system you will be very happy with.

This was posted by spec_out in another thread that sums it up perfectly.

"I kinda have some experience in this matter. I started out with some rtia5s connected to a mid 90's HITB Sony AVR. Did it make sound yes. Did I think it sounded better then the sony cubes I had before, yes.

Then I upgraded to a used Yamaha 463. Nice improvement. A lot more settings. It sounded better. But I dont think I really got anything until I got my Pioneer Elite VSX-32. That really opened them up. They started to sound musical and really good in a HT setup.
Then I connected it to my carver C-1 preamp and M1.0t power up Via preouts. This is how they are supposed to sound. Warm, detailed, and powerful. Night and day difference over just the elite.
The difference is more present when listening to 2ch stereo or concert blurays, but its noticeable in movies as well.
Audio falls into three categories for me. They can make noise, make sounds, or make music. You never know where your at until you have heard them all.

The main point is get something with preouts, make that the most important. You will want to grow at some point (being on this site will make that happen sooner rather then later) and having to spend another $400+ to get another AVR with preouts + the cost of an external amp is not fun.
Granted if you havent heard them at their peak you wont really know what your missing. To some thats fine, for me, not having them at their peak was killing me. That and there was a sound I was striving for that I wasnt getting from AVR's."

MalVeauX

tonyb wrote: »

If you like all channel stereo, that receiver is probably only putting out 30 watts or so. All channel stereo is probably more demanding than surround sound on a receiver. What volume levels are you listening at ? Do you have the 70's set to large or small ? What are they crossed over at ? A better center will help your listening experience but first, go over your settings and see if you can tweek the sound a bit before kicking them to the curb.

Heya,

I generally listen at moderate to higher volumes, at lower volumes it just doesn't sound very dynamic, so probably under powered. 70s are set to small, all speakers set to small, and cross over is at 150hz. I equalized the mid-bass and lower mids down a little because they seemed to be the over-riding volume, and it sounded a lot more balanced to me that way.

cfrizz
The speakers are fine, what you are lacking is power, and unfortunately I don't think your receiver has preouts to add separate amplification. So you would have to get another receiver that has them so that you can get a separate amp. I would get at least a 5-7 channel amp of 200wpc @ 8ohms. It will cost more money, but you will have it for years with a system you will be very happy with.

It has pre-amp outs for all channels actually, one of the reasons I went for it so I could grow amps if needed later. Any recommendations for a decent amplifier that can do 7 channels at 200wpc/8ohm? I'm totally oblivious to these things and where to find them online. I won't be able to buy local. And I'm open to used.

Very best,

tonyb

Seems pretty high for the crossover at 150. Most probably have them at 80-60 I would guess. Try different settings and see how you like the sound.
With that said, those speaks don't need that much juice to sound their best. An amp will surely help out though. Given you like it loud, be carefull, that receiver can only do so much before it clips and drags the speakers down with it. You don't need mega watts in an amp, just good clean power. Thumb around some threads on amps, plenty of used ones for a couple hundies to get your feet wet with.

TNHNDYMAN

Hey Mal- you have a nice setup that should sound pretty nice but can obviously be improved. I agree that trying to run all 7 speakers in 7 ch stereo at full blast will be quite a load for any AVR to run. The 70's should be room filling on their own if you run most cd's and music in stereo, direct, or pure audio mode. The 70's do open up and sound better if they get some decent power such as a dedicated 2 ch amp.

First I would rerun your calibration program and double check all the settings. I would highly recommend going with a cs2 for your center as I have owned both. A big improvement.... Do you have a subwoofer, and what kind? I think your crossover is too high at 150 and that is why the 70's sound similar to the 50's. You are taking the freq they would do better than the 50's and sending them to the sub. Personally I'd move the 40's to rear surround duty and use the 30's for heights. Movies and surround sound should improve with these changes, but for music I'm not a fan of multi channel all speakers blasting away. If you are using listening to SACD's that have been mixed in 5.1 that's a different story.

For music I'd keep it to running your 70's and sub only in stereo or direct mode. 5 and 7 channel amps can get real expensive and in my opinion not necessary for most applications. If you get a nice 2ch amp for the 70's or a 3 ch to include the center as well then the AVR can handle the load of the surrounds quite adequately. YMMV, good luck in your search for sonic bliss.

MalVeauX

tonyb wrote: »

Seems pretty high for the crossover at 150. Most probably have them at 80-60 I would guess. Try different settings and see how you like the sound.
With that said, those speaks don't need that much juice to sound their best. An amp will surely help out though. Given you like it loud, be carefull, that receiver can only do so much before it clips and drags the speakers down with it. You don't need mega watts in an amp, just good clean power. Thumb around some threads on amps, plenty of used ones for a couple hundies to get your feet wet with.

Heya,

I tried 50hz and 80hz, and I like the cleaner sound with the xover set at 50hz, but it feels like there's a slight mid-bass hole when I set it there, but at 80hz it fills up, but is a touch boomy. Probably just the weakness of the subs not being as strong in the deeper sub-bass. I've been wanting to get some DIY 15's. I'm a fanatic for sub-bass, but I don't really like boomy mid-bass at all. Headphone wise, I like Denons if that helps at all (Denon D5000, etc). So leaving it on 80hz for now, but equalized down the mid-bass to drop some boominess.

End of the day I think it is more of a tweaking thing for me.

First I would rerun your calibration program and double check all the settings. I would highly recommend going with a cs2 for your center as I have owned both. A big improvement.... Do you have a subwoofer, and what kind? I think your crossover is too high at 150 and that is why the 70's sound similar to the 50's. You are taking the freq they would do better than the 50's and sending them to the sub. Personally I'd move the 40's to rear surround duty and use the 30's for heights. Movies and surround sound should improve with these changes, but for music I'm not a fan of multi channel all speakers blasting away. If you are using listening to SACD's that have been mixed in 5.1 that's a different story.

Thanks. Do you think the CS2 or the CS20? They're similar, and the cost is not much more. Just wondering if there's a real difference between those two? Or are they the same thing essentially? I do plan on at least getting a better center channel. I've found the hard way that in home theater, a good near full range center is really a treat since so much is involved in the center channel in movies. I actually have my center channel at +1 db over the fronts as I like it to be a little more than they are.

I'll experiment with putting the 40's in the back and 30's up front again.

Thanks!

Very best,

TNHNDYMAN

Personally, I'd stick with the CS2 since it's from the same Monitor series. They are similar but consistentcy on the front stage is very important. I run my center "hot" +2db over calibrated setting for most day to day TV viewing just to hear dialogue more than the surrounds and reset back to spec when watching movies.

Again not sure what subwoofer you are currently using and that may be a weak link as well as the center. After rereading your initial post it looks as if you want to run 7ch stereo to send the same signal to all speakers. That may be fun for parties, but it's still not ideal for critical listening. Also running all 7 speakers at a high volumne is putting a large load on the AVR. It may say 100WPC, but in real world figures you'd be lucky to get 40-50 when driving all the speakers per channel and are risking the receiver. It's your gear and party like you want to with it, but to keep the magic smoke inside the AVR, I'd recommend getting seperate amps if you want to run it wide open often. Emotive makes some good value 5ch amps that might be something to consider. Also keep an eye on ebay and your local CL for good quality used amps.

MalVeauX

TNHNDYMAN wrote: »

Personally, I'd stick with the CS2 since it's from the same Monitor series. They are similar but consistentcy on the front stage is very important. I run my center "hot" +2db over calibrated setting for most day to day TV viewing just to hear dialogue more than the surrounds and reset back to spec when watching movies.

Again not sure what subwoofer you are currently using and that may be a weak link as well as the center. After rereading your initial post it looks as if you want to run 7ch stereo to send the same signal to all speakers. That may be fun for parties, but it's still not ideal for critical listening. Also running all 7 speakers at a high volumne is putting a large load on the AVR. It may say 100WPC, but in real world figures you'd be lucky to get 40-50 when driving all the speakers per channel and are risking the receiver. It's your gear and party like you want to with it, but to keep the magic smoke inside the AVR, I'd recommend getting seperate amps if you want to run it wide open often. Emotive makes some good value 5ch amps that might be something to consider. Also keep an eye on ebay and your local CL for good quality used amps.

Heya,

Per the first post, I'm using dual PSW505's for subs. They seem to do ok for the most part, but are very, very entry level. I think my BIC 12 sounds a lot better in general, but I wanted two matching subs until I get new ones (I plan on getting two 15's later to replace these PSW505's).

CS2 sounds like a good plan then.

Any good online retailers for amplifiers that you're speaking of? I google and get a bunch of weird little shops and ads and stuff, but no real options for picking up the real deal, or seeing pictures, or specs and the like. It would be nice to find a website with amplifiers kind of like the format Amazon does or NewEgg or other online malls with return policies.

It looks like I may be fine with simply getting a 3 channel amplifier for the 70's and CS2. And then let the VSX1121 handle the 50's & 40's since they're just surrounds anyways.

Any suggestions for a nice 3/4 channel 200wpc 8ohm amplifier that would be decent here? And perhaps a place where I can shop for it online?

Very best,

TNHNDYMAN

Sorry I overlooked the 505's twice as I reread the 1st post. I'd be interested in one if you upgrade if shipping didn't kill the price, it's hard to beat neweggs 199 and free ship deal.

3 channel amp would be your best bet for now unless you happen to come across a great deal on a 5 or 7 ch amp while looking. The bay has tons of amps everyday and you can just watch and follow to get a better idea of what type of money differant ones are going for. The return policies may be lacking but deals are there if you shop wisely.

Audiogon is a good source for quality gear. AudioKarma has a huge community and if you pay $25/yr for membership you can shop members sales area.

Adcom, Rotel, Parasound, B & K, many other high quality brands sell multi ch amps.

MalVeauX

Heya,

Could anyone drop a link to an example of a decent inexpensive 3 channel amp that does roughly 300wpc @ 8ohm? Trying to get an idea of what prices I'm going to be having to look at. I don't need the best, I'm using entry level here after all. Just looking for something to toy around with for a while. I keep finding a lot of bogus "3000" watt junk that can't be possible at the price point, and multi channel amps that output tiny bits of wattage and voltage. Kind of lost here.

Very best,

cnh

Good suggestions above. I run an M-70/CS2/M-30 B.A. 300 watt RMS/600 watt Peak. sub. on an Onkyo TX-SR 805 (51 lbs of AVR, 130 watts x 7). Definitely get the CS2, it makes a huge difference. 50 percent of your movie sound is carried by the center.

Never cross over at 150hz with a speaker set like that. The Onkyo above is the smallest/weakest AVR I would consider adequate to drive the M-70s! Even though they have a decent efficiency rating, they sound "anemic" without REAL POWER! Five drivers in each cabinet, you have to consider that. It's not a simple matter of driving M-50s with two smallish 5" mids and a tweeter! That's why M-50s usually sound better than a lot of towers in the store. Because the cheap/A$$ AVRs they're hooked up to "can" provide enough power for them whereas they muddy up the M-70s. I've heard this effect first hand.

M-70s (and their newer cousin TSI-500s) sound like an "entirely" different speaker when you apply good clean power to them. It's startling just how different! They easily rival the Rti-A5s, and I prefer them to the A5s with good power behind them!

You should go used for your 3 channel amp. Parasound, Adcom, Acurus, NAD, Rotel, etc. all make very nice units for your needs. Check out places like audiogon.com, etc.

You're lucky that Pioneer has some pre-outs.

On another note. I find that when you run a CS2 which has a bottom of 60 hz and M-70s at 40 hz. That 60 hz as the crossover for the fronts works well for me, but I have the extra power of the Onkyo to work with. Set your surround/rears at 80 hz.

The PSW 505 (IMHO is a better sub than the BIC but that's just an opinion). If it is boomy you need to back it off, check the Phasing switch and dial things in better. Most people drive their subs till they "bottom out" thinking that MORE bass is a good thing. Good BASS is a a good thing and not all tracks or movies have humongous bass. I find too many people run their sub too HOT! An SPL meter might be useful here. Calibrate that volume from the seated position.

Good Luck, and good listening!

cnh

MalVeauX

Heya,

Sounds good. I definitely will be grabbing a CS2 soon to replace my center. Last thing is just to find a decent amplifier. Everything I'm finding is several thousand dollars which is steep considering the speakers and all cost less basically. Would love to find something in the $300~500 area that would cover the 3 channels with 200 watts or so. Not sure I'm going to find that. I'll have to just keep an eye out for a deal I suppose and suffer the mud for a while until then.

With my crossover at 80hz, and equalized mid-bass down a touch, I like how the bass is that way; I like sub-bass to have a touch of emphasis, but I don't like the mid-bass to get boomy and out of control. With the 70's under powered, they're slouching on the bass for sure. My surrounds sound fuller since they require less power. Hah. Maybe I should have just gotten more 50's instead of the 70's at this point.

What about something like this, but simply bi-wire the 70's and run the center off a single channel?

Very best,

TNHNDYMAN

bi wiring with the avr and in general is a waste of time. If you are serious about needing a decent amp pm me with contact info and I might be able to help you get started.

MalVeauX

Heya,

Looks like I might be better off for now simply getting a 2 channel amp that does 200wpc @ 8ohms, or just two mono blocks. Prices are all over the place. I don't think I need more than 2/3 channel right now as the other speakers are decently driven off the AVR (vsx1121). It's just the 70's that likely need more juice that isn't getting there. I think even a 120~150wpc amp would probably make the 70's sound better than just the AVR's power, since they're not getting the 110wpc listed by the AVR, probably way less, making the drivers get next to nothing.

Very best,

MalVeauX

Heya,

Anyone have thoughts on these 2 amplifiers?

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-650
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=245-690

QSC GX3
QSC RMX 850

Again, for pushing two Monitor 70's.

Very best,

MalVeauX

Heya,

My concern is that they are possibly just too noisy. Looks like reviews are putting a lot of value on the QSC, being a great value amplifier with a 6 year warranty, providing solid power output into the loads, but again, my concern is that they're for outdoor/live use, and not home use perhaps, so they're cooling systems are just loud with fans. Anyone have any insight on this? Are they too noisy you think? I don't care if there is a fan blowing when it's dead silent. But if it's so loud that you can hear it while there's basic playback going on, then definitely not a good thing. As it is, my HTPC has a fan that is relatively loud, and I'm ok with that, and my AC is pretty loud too of course, I'm ok with that. So I'm curious if one of these amplifiers would be too loud or if they're acceptable in terms of noise if you consider a computer fan that is loud and an AC unit that is loud. They seem to do the same thing, the GX3 and RMX850, but it looks like the RMX850 is a lot heavier and more robust with current output, and the GX3 is just less robust and more budget oriented. Not sure if I should care too much at this point since I'm just powering some Polk Monitor 70's, good budget speakers, but nothing worth dropping $1000 on an amp for yet.

Oh and definitely getting the CS2. Will likely get a separate amplifier for the CS2 in the future. And the surrounds can just come off the AVR until I eventually get stupid and have power amps on everything like a fool, I know I might end up there, bleh hehe.

Thoughts?

Very best,

MalVeauX

Heya,

Update:

So after getting more information else where, I'm being told by some avid speaker folk that the M70's are not under powered. The Polks are simply too efficient to truly benefit from a better power amplifier than what the VSX1121 already offers. I'm being told that a power amp of 200watts will only add about +3 db to volume and will not add any enhanced properties like sound stage or anything else over what they're already doing.

So confused...

Very best,

tonyb

I could agree with part of that. That receiver on it's own can power the monitor series, yes......the monitors are efficient enough. Some things to consider though. Your receiver in 7 channel mode is only putting out about 40 watts each channel. Also, nobody buys an amp to gain loudness, thats not what an amp does per say. An amp will bring out more detail in the music, let you hear deeper into it, while giving you better bass control and possibly faster transients. Do you need 200 watts for the monitors ? No, you do not....but a beefier receiver or an amp will help them sound better. An amp can make most any speaker sound better, wether or not it's needed is a different story. Hook them up to the pioneer, see how it sounds and if you think you can benefit from an amp I believe that receiver does have preouts to add one if you so wish. Good luck to you and let us know how things turn out.

MalVeauX

tonyb wrote: »

I could agree with part of that. That receiver on it's own can power the monitor series, yes......the monitors are efficient enough. Some things to consider though. Your receiver in 7 channel mode is only putting out about 40 watts each channel. Also, nobody buys an amp to gain loudness, thats not what an amp does per say. An amp will bring out more detail in the music, let you hear deeper into it, while giving you better bass control and possibly faster transients. Do you need 200 watts for the monitors ? No, you do not....but a beefier receiver or an amp will help them sound better. An amp can make most any speaker sound better, wether or not it's needed is a different story. Hook them up to the pioneer, see how it sounds and if you think you can benefit from an amp I believe that receiver does have preouts to add one if you so wish. Good luck to you and let us know how things turn out.

Heya,

I'm confused about the 40watts per channel thing; it says 110wpc at 8 ohms, 7 channels. How do we determine the 40 watts? Is that real world? And if so, how is that calculated? Just trying to under stand. Also, if that's the case, how can the same spec be trusted on an amplifier that says **** wpc at 8ohms over Y channels, real world performance wise? If it truly is only doing 40 watts per channel, I would like to experience them on something with 100 watts or more to see if it matters at all. I'm getting volume for sure, but it would be nice to see if the mids & treble improves at all, tightens, better sound stage, etc, with an amplifier; the bass is taken care of by subs, so the amp will have nothing to do with those they are self-powered and not using the VSX1121.

Thanks!

Very best,

cfrizz

Mal we can all talk to you about it until the cows come home, but the only way YOU are going to know is when you finally hear the difference for yourself. More power makes a very real difference.

spock 2054

cfrizz wrote: »

Mal we can all talk to you about it until the cows come home, but the only way YOU are going to know is when you finally hear the difference for yourself. More power makes a very real difference.

+1 on what Cathy said. A good 3 channel amp for the front and center channels:
http://www.amazon.com/Emotiva-XPA-3-Emotiva-XPA-3-Amplifier/dp/B008O37ELI

Or peruse flea bay...

Just a suggestion - try listening without the amp, then add the amp and see if you can hear the difference.

tonyb

MalVeauX wrote: »

Heya,

I'm confused about the 40watts per channel thing; it says 110wpc at 8 ohms, 7 channels. How do we determine the 40 watts? Is that real world? And if so, how is that calculated? Just trying to under stand. Also, if that's the case, how can the same spec be trusted on an amplifier that says **** wpc at 8ohms over Y channels, real world performance wise? If it truly is only doing 40 watts per channel, I would like to experience them on something with 100 watts or more to see if it matters at all. I'm getting volume for sure, but it would be nice to see if the mids & treble improves at all, tightens, better sound stage, etc, with an amplifier; the bass is taken care of by subs, so the amp will have nothing to do with those they are self-powered and not using the VSX1121.

Thanks!

Very best,

Most entry to mid level receivers when run in 7 channel mode drop their power considerably. Just google your receiver with bench test after it and some links should come up. Receiver wattage ratings are somewhat misleading to say the least. Common mistake most folks make right off the bat in believing those ratings.

Incidently, I just threw that 40 watt figure out there. I know the 1020 is about 38 watts running 7 channels, I'm sure the 1121 is much better, probably 70 or 80 watts per in 7 channel mode.

MalVeauX

Heya,

Hrm, so if that's the case, how can I know if a quality 200wpc amplifier is actually putting out 200wpc and not just doing what a good AVR is doing with it's rated 110wpc? Seems a little too "magical" to me, where one is always inferior to another.

Very best,