SDA 1C VS RTi 12's
naturallight
Posts: 689
OK, i have the 2 speakers sitting there, so why not compare them. I also hope that now that i'm used to the SDA's again, the problems i hear may be solved by the RDO's..but not willing to dump 200 bucks just yet.
Since i've been playing more music on the SDA's....the amount of CD's i don't like on them keeps building, mostly due to the treble.
Now both speakers are played with an Adcom pre...no added buttons or any added bass. The amp is the Onkyo M-504, The CD's are played thru the Jolidia. Also lets forget the SDA "effect" for now.
Now the first thing that hits you is the SDA's are a way more up front speaker. For lack of better terms, there pretty much in you face. But they also seem to be treble heavy, to a certain point. With the SL2000 in there..there are mounting CD's that are just not pleasent to listen too.
The RTi12's on the other hand seem to be laid back (which seems strange for HT type speakers) Plus don't come across as treble heavy. So the CD's that are not pleasant on the SDA's are ok on the 12's. There also more midragey..if there is such a word..LOL
Let me put it this way..the SDA's maybe i would say they sound like 2 way speakers, then when you go to the 12's..then your hit with more midrange. Not a good way to say it, but i don't know how to say it any better.
Your kind of hit with this mid stuff..at first, you think well this is not good....but after a few min....then, yeah it's not so bad at all. At first compared to the SDA's they may seem..well veiled..but after a few min, there really not. Your just getting hit in the face with 2 different sounds.
The 12's want more power then the SDA's..at least to maybe put out the same bass. I'm not sure about this, but the SDA's are 6 ohms, the 12's are 8....so they don't work the same if you put them at say 10 oclock on the volume. To volume match the speakers...you have to crank it up a bit for the 12's.
The 12's sound stage..is nothing to throw to the curb...they do sound really good. It's not SDA sound stage, but what is.
The SDA's will give you plenty of bass. The 12's you have to turn up some to get the same amount, but will just keep going. I can play the 12's at disco volume if i want and the bass will beat you to death. the SDA's i can't turn up that high as there is 1 driver..that really dosen't like too high volume and will pop.
But what do you want from 25 year old speakers...LOL
Now the only way i have to test this is to shut down the system, pull the banana plugs from one set of speakers and move them to the next. Pretty much what i came up with the SDA's are really up front beat you in the face speakers....with the SL2000 too treble heavy, the 12's on the other hand are laid back speakers, with more mid range going on..which is not bad. Plus at least with this amp not treble heavy.
Since i've been playing more music on the SDA's....the amount of CD's i don't like on them keeps building, mostly due to the treble.
Now both speakers are played with an Adcom pre...no added buttons or any added bass. The amp is the Onkyo M-504, The CD's are played thru the Jolidia. Also lets forget the SDA "effect" for now.
Now the first thing that hits you is the SDA's are a way more up front speaker. For lack of better terms, there pretty much in you face. But they also seem to be treble heavy, to a certain point. With the SL2000 in there..there are mounting CD's that are just not pleasent to listen too.
The RTi12's on the other hand seem to be laid back (which seems strange for HT type speakers) Plus don't come across as treble heavy. So the CD's that are not pleasant on the SDA's are ok on the 12's. There also more midragey..if there is such a word..LOL
Let me put it this way..the SDA's maybe i would say they sound like 2 way speakers, then when you go to the 12's..then your hit with more midrange. Not a good way to say it, but i don't know how to say it any better.
Your kind of hit with this mid stuff..at first, you think well this is not good....but after a few min....then, yeah it's not so bad at all. At first compared to the SDA's they may seem..well veiled..but after a few min, there really not. Your just getting hit in the face with 2 different sounds.
The 12's want more power then the SDA's..at least to maybe put out the same bass. I'm not sure about this, but the SDA's are 6 ohms, the 12's are 8....so they don't work the same if you put them at say 10 oclock on the volume. To volume match the speakers...you have to crank it up a bit for the 12's.
The 12's sound stage..is nothing to throw to the curb...they do sound really good. It's not SDA sound stage, but what is.
The SDA's will give you plenty of bass. The 12's you have to turn up some to get the same amount, but will just keep going. I can play the 12's at disco volume if i want and the bass will beat you to death. the SDA's i can't turn up that high as there is 1 driver..that really dosen't like too high volume and will pop.
But what do you want from 25 year old speakers...LOL
Now the only way i have to test this is to shut down the system, pull the banana plugs from one set of speakers and move them to the next. Pretty much what i came up with the SDA's are really up front beat you in the face speakers....with the SL2000 too treble heavy, the 12's on the other hand are laid back speakers, with more mid range going on..which is not bad. Plus at least with this amp not treble heavy.
Post edited by naturallight on
Comments
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I've noticed the total opposite.
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The RD0194-1 Tweeters make a monster difference.
Does not help much in your A/B testing. Mine are smooth as Silk (all puns intended) but have been in place for the better part of five months. SDA-2A's with exceptional high end reproduction. I cannot hear for s**t but am told I have the nicest stereo any has heard.
not saying much as it is a small market. From the little I have seen SDA's are all about having the proper space to set them.
Just my .02 cent and most likely overpriced. I will say the SDA seems to be quite sensitive to its source. My new to me GFP-750 and Signal Cable interconnects have contributed greatly. -
I've noticed the total opposite.
I've owned both sets, the 12's were their best at HT duty. I feel like the 1C's are their best at two channel.
I sold the 12's to fund the rebuild of the 1C's. Money well spent -
Yes, i'm really sitting procrastinating. I can't afford to fix the SDA's right now, as the house comes first (according to the wife) So i'm just moving things around and testing stuff out. Some of my terms may not be correct in how to describe the difference. When i say the SDA's are more up front speakers, that may be more musician speak, then HI-FI terms. It would be like comparing a stock Marshall 4X12 cab to one loaded with Greenback speakers. The greenbacks will give you a clearer note presentation, and also project that out farther. If that makes any seance.
Lets put it this way if the SDA's and the 12's were in a Polk demo room. I highly doubt anybody would walk out with the 12's....LOL There really completely different speakers. Your really trying to compare apples to oranges. If you like the presentation from the SDA's the 12's don't stand a chance. You just can't get around the SDA "effect" Nice to say, lets forget that for now, but impossible to do really.
Now my statement of the SDA's may be a little treble heavy, is not a good description, and thats my fault. It becomes an issue, dependent on the source material. Since i've been pulling out alot of CD's and trying different music, it becomes noticable. It's not ear splitting, but is not pleasent to listen too for long periods.
All these cd's(where this problem shows it's ugly head) are 'remastered" from old analog tape. The old vinyl recordings are long gone, never sounded like this. So your stuck with what these clowns think is a good "remastered" copy. Now maybe the RDO's will tame some of these recordings. The difference with the 12's on this, is the SDA's have both tweeters fireing at you at almost ear level, when seated. The 12's only have the 1 tweeter and is really fireing above your head when in the seating position. So could be why the 12's make these cd's at least more pleasent to listen to.
Now the RDO's may or may not help with these cd's. Now you really can't fix badly recorded material. You can only try and make it passable. Since i have the bass and treble controls, well the hated answer is to maybe turn down the treble a tad. That may or may not help the recording. But may salvage it enough so it's not so unpleasent to listen to -
One of the more technically knowledgeable would have to give the exact figures but the SL-2000 has a big spike in its response curve. I could see where a remastered mix could hit the spike causing what you describe.
Before I did the RDO's I powered with 17 watts Class A so did not hear the harshness in the highs as others have. -
The problem with these old "remastered" analog tapes to cd's Is these bands are long gone. In some cases some of these guys have died. The record companies pull this stuff out, say heck we can still make some money off this stuff. The artists that did the original recording at the time, normally say fine. They could use the money. But don't really have any control over how it's remastered.
Pretty much there term for "remastered" is to make it MP3 ready. They pretty much turn the old tape up to were it's just below the digital "clip" boost the bass and treble, then compress it. So you can buy a single song for 99 cents off some website, so you can download it to your PC or MP3 player. So what you end up with is nothing like the original vinyl pressing.
A good percentage of the population, thinks this is great, they can download this, listen on there MP3 player with there earbuds, or on there Bose wave player, or there 300 dollor stereo..works great.
If you try and play this on a "GOOD" stereo system, with quality speakers, amps, cd player ETC: Then the flaws in there "remastered" cd become readily apparent. If you have heard the original vinyl recording, on good equipment, you know strait away it was never recorded like that.
It's pretty sad, but nothing you can do about it. So you can do a couple of things. Just relegate it the never played pile of cd's, search and find a vinyl copy of that album..hope it's not over played, or try and fix it the best you can, which pretty much means try to drop down what these clowns ramped up. The only 2 things you have...IF you have them are the bass and treble controls. Now of course this is considered heinous, and should never be done or needed. In a perfect CD recording world i would say yes, your right. But thats not the case. Now no matter how good your preamp is, or all your components are, you can't fix an over processed, over treble boosted female vocal. Dropping your treble a tad, will not "fix" it, but "may" make it at least more pleasant to listen to.
Now the artists, that are alive, have control over there music..there cd's are wonderful...which thankfully most of my CD's are. Any Pink Floyd CD, Clapton, 24 nights, live....wonderful CD, the SDA's will give you a presentation like your sitting in the middle of the theater. Even with the SL2000's ,The RDO's should make it even better if thats possible...LOL Thankfully most of this stuff is well recorded and EQ'd.
When you start looking for old, not so known bands.....IF you can find any recording at all, your lucky.
So you take what you can get, if you want to hear these songs again. In alot of cases, you can't even get the real original album/ cd remaster. They don't think it's worth it, so they take X amount of songs they think might sell...jam them onto a CD. So you end up with whatever "remastered" pile of junk they think will sell. Forget any Vinyl reproduction...LOL Not worth there time. -
Well if i could afford a Class A tube amp, to power the SDA's...i'd be a happy camper. But thats not going to happen. If this was the 1980's and i'm just playing all vinyl, i would probably say there is nothing wrong with the SL2000's at all. I never used the bass or treble controls, they were a waste of space at that point. NOW....I'm not so sure.
I don't feel i have bad equipment, at this point thats all i can afford anyway, so updates are few and far between. When you can play most of this wonderful digital mess as i will call it. And 85% of your CD's pretty much work perfectly. That's a plus. If you can put on a Clapton CD an feel like your in the Filmore...what more can you want. When you put on a "remastered" pile of junk from the Rossington Collins band, that makes her voice to the point of you can barley take listening to it....when you have heard the original Vinyl recording, and know it doesn't sound like that. Then thats NOT the fault of your equipment.
The SL2000's are not the best, and maybe the RDO's will tame her voice some. But to say that throwing more high dollar equipment at a "supposed" problem, is going to fix it..not really true. There was no problem before in the original vinyl record. These people created the problem by doing a crap remaster.
Can you fix this CD...hell no. Can you make it passable to listen to..maybe. Maybe IF you can turn down the treble these clowns put in there....well maybe it becomes a listenable CD, as apposed to one you have to throw in the no play pile. This is not the right answer to this...there is no right answer, except to find the right vinyl record. Baring that..if you can turn down the treble..maybe it becomes at least passable to listen to..so in that case, the bass and treble controls, are not such a useless function. -
Cool write-up. When it comes to tone controls the one I found the most use for was the variable loudness on the Yamaha. For very low level in the office during the day I could dial in a click or two. Did not change the volume but would bring up the voices on the tuner.
I know less than nothing about playing digital media. I am reading but it can be a bit much to adsorb in one shot.
With the low power Class A I am not sure I could hear the problem but was assured it existed so I bought the RDO's. I did not have listener fatigue issues before the swap but again I was not driving them hard. I cranked it up on occasion but not for long as the CA-1000 gets hot in Class A. I am re-listening to every CD I own after dropping in the GFP-750. (has to be the pre amp and not the cables as cables do not matter :rolleyes:) I am sure that even the lowest level of the Signal Cables are better than the left over AV cables and freebie patch cords I had in a baggie. There is no high end audio where I live so please do not laugh when I say the Signal Cables are some of the nicest looking cables I have ever seen. Sound nice also but I have not heard any thing high end.
The RDO194-1 swap sounded fantastic the day I did them and gave the first listen. I was warned they would fluctuate during a break in period lasting between 100 and 300 hours depending on who gives you the break in time. I woke up the next morning and walked into the office and they sounded like crap. Someone had got past the dogs and alarm system and swapped the silk domes for wet sponge. Sounded like that for the better part of two days. They sound amazing now.
I realize the board loves the SDA's but I also understand your being reluctant to just throw money at them. By time I have done my crossovers I will have almost $600.00 in a pair of SDA-2A's I bought for $90.00.
I enjoy reading your thoughts on the topic so feel free to continue. Can digital disks be de-compiled like source code? If so something might be done about it there. Can it be torn apart and remixed in house? -
LMAO..no i'm not reluctant to throw money at the SDA's...I just can't. the wife says the house comes first, my Audio concerns or obsessions..are pretty much at the bottom of the list.
Your question about "decomposing" the song sort of speak..no it can't be done..at least as far as i know. I'm a musician, been in the studio's EQ'ing stuff. Once you finish the final mix..thats it. your done. This now gets dumped to 2 channels. There is pretty much is no return from that.
So my comments about throwing large dollors, cables, amps, tubes, at just badly recorded CD's is pretty much on the mark. You just can't fix BAD..no matter how much you think you can.
Case inpoint would be a les Dudek cd. The clown that "remastered" this..should be shot, and i'm not sure what this guy did. Some songs are so..well for lack of better words..so Vailed..it sounds like somebody thru something over the speakers. This you can't fix, no matter how much money you thru at the system.
I would love to re- EQ some of this stuff...but you really can't, or at least do it right. What your hearing may be 32 channels of music, that after the mix is done...gets put to a 2 channel "stereo" format. You can mess with it to a certain degree..as like your bass, and treble controls. You can put a "supposed" EQ rig in there. Yes you can mess with the sound, but your only dealing with the basic 2 channel sound of the stereo. Again, you can mess with it....maybe you can make BAD..not so BAD..and at least listenable. But you really can't FIX it.
To really fix any of this, you would need the original 16 or 32 track tapes, have a Hugh console , lots of outboard equipment, then re- EQ this mess yourself..then put it to the 2 channel format. Then make your own well recorded CD....LMAO Which of course will never happen. So your stuck with whatever these people want to give you for old out of date and not so NUMBER 1 records. If they don't think they can make a buck..you will never even find the recording -
RD0-194 swap was the best upgrade I did for my 1C's. I had the same problem you did. The minute I swapped the RD0-194's for the SL2000's I was in Heaven. I really didnt notice much of a "burn in". They were awesome from the get go. Best upgrade for me and I have had almost all of the upgrades done.I got static in my head
The reflected sound of everything -
Thanks rromeo, thats good to know and what i was hopeing for. That will be the first upgrade i do, when i am "allowed" to "waste" money on this...LOL
This may help some of these "remastered" cd's...at least tame them somewhat. It may help the Rossington Collons cd...it may tame some of the treble. But you still may have to pull back your treble control to make it reasonable. This cd is "almost" fixable. They just ramped up the treble across the board. So all the guitars, her vocals are on the bleeding edge. So in this case..the treble control may salvage this cd.
Thats the problem with old remastered "classic" rock band stuff...some is done, some what well, some are just a mess, and you can't even try to fix it. So to me, having the bass and treble controls.."MAY" make some of the cd's salvageable.
