Rewiring internal speak wires and reference level?

chiptouz

Ok, two questions here:

1: is is worthwhile to rewire the internal speaker wire that came with the speakers?

2: When people mention listening at reference level here do they mean playing their amplifier at 0 level on their av receiver? On my Denon 3808ci I rarely go any higher than -10, which I assume means 10 below reference level of 0. If this is the case how high do people usually go and remain safe so that they do not blow their speakers by clipping their internal AMP. I have no interest in ruining my speaker.

Thanks....

Chip

nhhiep

I think "reference level" doesn't mean listen at 0 (or anything) volume. On my Denon 3806 connecting to an HK amp, i rarely go pass -15, except when I test to see when my ears will bleed.

zingo

chiptouz wrote: »

1: is is worthwhile to rewire the internal speaker wire that came with the speakers?

It can be if the speakers are old enough to have corroded or deteriorated wiring, or if the wiring is of inadequate gauge. I upgraded the wiring in my old Klipsch Fortes, but I have literately upgraded everything else, and that was all that was left.

chiptouz wrote: »

2: When people mention listening at reference level here do they mean playing their amplifier at 0 level on their av receiver? On my Denon 3808ci I rarely go any higher than -10, which I assume means 10 below reference level of 0. If this is the case how high do people usually go and remain safe so that they do not blow their speakers by clipping their internal AMP. I have no interest in ruining my speaker.

I believe "reference level" is 90db, but it really doesn't matter. Reference level really has to do with theater, and standards for mixing, testing with pink noise, etc.

Whatever volume sounds the best in your room with your equipment, is the one you should listen at. Just make sure you keep the levels below ruining your equipment or ears.

BlueFox

chiptouz wrote: »

2: When people mention listening at reference level here do they mean playing their amplifier at 0 level on their av receiver? On my Denon 3808ci I rarely go any higher than -10, which I assume means 10 below reference level of 0. If this is the case how high do people usually go and remain safe so that they do not blow their speakers by clipping their internal AMP. I have no interest in ruining my speaker.

The volume numbers on an AVR or pre-amp mean nothing. They are only a visual guide for the user. With the numbers you know that at 'x' the volume is just right, but at 'w' it is to low, and at 'y' it is to high. If you are interested in accurate volume numbers then you need to buy a Sound Pressure Level meter. Then you can find out that -10 on your AVR is equal to 83db, for example. Of course for different source material you will have different SPL values at the same volume setting.

I mostly set my pre to -40, which usually produces SPL levels in the 70db range, with peaks into the 80s, and dips into the 60s with string quartets as a source.

zingo

On a preamp, below "0" should be when the preamp is attenuating the signal, and above "0" should be when it is amplifying the line signal. That's what those numbers should mean, but that's probably not standard, especially on cheaper equipment.

Face

If your ears hurt at -15, either your receiver isn't calibrated correctly or your amp/speakers aren't up to snuff.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/73283-dynamic-eq-and-reference-level

rebuy

As far as internal rewiring of speakers from the stock wire, I have done this by replacing stock wiring with 14 gauge and it made a big sonic difference, not a subtle difference. So if you are able to rewire with a high quality large gauge wire, do it, you'll notice a difference.

skrol

This could be anther area of great debate. There are some who have warned against changing the internal wire gauge as it will change the ESR of the wire from the original that was used to voice the speaker. Therefore, the voicing would be changed.

rebuy

Yes, it could be a great debate for those who have not done it and rely on theory like some members and have not experimented with different materials and tweaks. I have personally done this and had better than expected results, so I really have actual experience. I did not notice a change in the voicing of the speaker being very careful about wire length and the actual build specs from the speakers I worked on. I'm sure everything built into the speaker including wire length was there for a reason. I used very high quality speaker wire for the task as I was not going to alter a factory built crossover without using superior replacement parts.
Some will argue that that small amount of wire from the crossover to the speaker does not matter in the grand scheme of the audio chain, I say different. A chain is only strong as it's weakest link, and internal wiring of a speaker can make a lot of difference.
Most folks won't even think about it but if I have my Xovers modded I will want better wire than standard when I get them back.

FastGame

skrol wrote: »

This could be anther area of great debate. There are some who have warned against changing the internal wire gauge as it will change the ESR of the wire from the original that was used to voice the speaker. Therefore, the voicing would be changed.

I never understood this inside the speaker wire thing...I mean lets all run this super silver fine strand/braided large gauge wire from amp to speaker, then inside the speaker is this small cheap a$$ wire :rolleyes: go figure...

skrol

I have wondered that myself. Why not voice the speaker with high quality internal wiring when it is designed? It is likely a cost saving measure.

True, I haven't personally experimented with changing the wiring of my speakers. When I consulted the gentleman who originally voiced the RTA11TL's, as well several Polks from that era, about tweaks and upgrades; he advised against deviating from the original wiring ESR as well as the inductor ESR.

Now given the 10% tolerance of the resistors and who knows what tolerance caps and inductors used in the production speakers, maintaining the original internal wire ESR may not be as critical as it would be in the design / prototype phase. Pretty sad how these engineers go through great pains to tweak values within tight tolerances to get that perfect sound only to have marketing and cost saving measures de-tune it with low grade or even substitute components. But that helps us to afford to buy them and gives us something to do when we get the itch to tinker.

Face

No harm in re-wiring, bypassing connectors, soldering straight to drivers, etc...just be aware you may change the overall balance of the speaker, for better or worse, that's all.

transmaster

For the lengths if the conductors we are talking about unless there is something wrong with the wires, corrosion, loose connections, cold solder joints, etc. most people are not going to hear any difference if you change out these wire for something with a larger AWG, or wires made from silver, or other metals. Nor is there any advantage in sold wire, over stranded. The one thing I would be concerned with if a larger gauge, or a solid conductor is the affect this heavier less flexible wire is going to have on the connection points on the speakers, heavy and stiff enough to damage them.

There is one wire that would be interesting to try. Have any of you heard of Flex Weave wire? It is well known in the Amateur Radio world and we use is mainly for antennas. the insulated #12 wire has 259 strands of tinned copper wire. As the name implys it is very flexible. if not internal speaker connects it would make great speaker wire. I always purchased it from the Wireman (http://www.thewireman.com/antennap.html)

FLEX WEAVE? 12, or 14 AWG with Black, Army Green, or Clear ultra violet resistant, very flexible PVC jacket.

Face

So you speak from transmitter radio experience and not actually modifying speakers?

transmaster

I have used Flex-Weave as speaker cable it works very well you do the electric drill method of twisting it together. When I purchase it I get it several hundred feet at a time so after an antenna job I have enough left over to use it for other purposes. My '95 Ford F150's sound system is wired with it still, because it is so flexible it is very easy to snake through the nooks and crannies of a pickup truck. I have not had a reason to use it for internal wiring in speakers. Next time I decide to build a new HF antenna I just might try it out.

rebuy

I do not agree with transmaster that you will not notice a difference in sound with better wire inside the speaker cabinet itself. I realize that it is a very short run of wire as I have done this myself but the results were better than stock wire. I didn't have to sit there and question if the sound was better, it was clearly better to my ears.

gp4jesus

Bottom line: be like any inventor - try it. You can reverse it if you don't like it. We wouldnt have some of high tech toys we do if someone didnt try or gave up after 1 or 2 failures.

Over the past 30 years I've rewired several sets of speakers including my LCR (check my sig) plus a pair of subs*. In one case* I got a welcome* surprise*! In all cases the results were worth the effort. I'll detail my results & "bang for the $" advice when I can get to my computer.

Go for it! Tony

gp4jesus

I?m back. Chiptouz, my fraternal RTi A7 owner. Let me apologize for being long winded. I copied and pasted from a MS word file when these threads come up.

You can expect what I've enjoyed EVERYTIME I rewire or reduce speaker wire resistance: more output from the same input ? something of particular interest to anyone using an AVR.

I agree w/ the comments concerning the insanity of super pricey, stout wire connecting speakers containing cheap, thin wire and $3 worth of XO components. I also get a little peaved when naysayers spout theory but no experience. See Trey (VR3) about XO component upgrades - either coaching you on parts or him handling the soldering. Jbooker82, another member of the ?A7 fraternity, and others will vouch for Trey?s ?sound? work.

I've recently read several articles that go into detail on how amplifier output impedance & damping factor(s), speaker wire (SW) gauge (resistance), & speaker impedance relate to each other. Before I get into that I need to be sure you know 3dB is the smallest volume difference most can hear. Some "golden ears" claim they can hear smaller differences but let's not go there. A 3dB increase requires twice the power. The appetizer to a story about a pair of subs so please read carefully:

Sub & wire specs:
each w/2 12" drivers wired in parallel
Nominally: 4 ohms, impedance low point of 3 ohms.
Speaker wire: single 10? run of 10 ga Monster Cable (MC) to each, soldered directly, one driver daisy-chained to other; standard ?" spaced bananas @ other end. Calculated SW resistance slightly less than .02 ohms (.019978)
Amp: Belles
XO: 80 Hz, 18dB LP filtering.

I had them 95% dialed in within a day or 2; finished tweeking w/in 3 weeks. 6 months later?

Speaker Wire: double 5? run of that MC; each driver has its own soldered connection w/bananas (stacked) @ other end.
SW's new calculated resistance, slightly less than .005 ohms (.0049945)
I had to start from scratch dialing in the subs. Everything, I mean EVERYTHING sounded fat. I had to do more than slightly turn down the sub XO output.
I lowered the sub's wire's resistance a mere .01498 ohms. Could you believe reducing a SW's already LOW resistance such a miniscule amount could increase their* output over 3dB? I didn't. Are you beginning to understand why, especially where bass is concerned, heavy gauge wire is so much more important than some would lead you to believe?

Keep in mind these simple tenets to get the ?most bang for your $:?
1. shop quality over quantity (size) for vocals/mids & and especially for the highs/tweeters. Your A7 & CSi A6 tweeter wire is adequate in size. Quality?
2. shop quantity (size) over quality below the vocal range. Polk wired your A7 subs w/18 gauge. Bass carries up to 90% of the electrical energy in music or sound tracks. Read on you?ll see size REALLY does matter.
3. mids fall in between the size/quality discussion. 12 gauge OFC will do it here. I used AR wire from Parts Express. Center channel, too. Upping the ante in the quality department can only help your cause.
You can use higher quality all around if you can $wing it. Do one channel then reconnect and listen. The modded channel will be louder particularly in the bass. If you discover you don't like it or feel it?s a waste of time, reverse your work and call me a liar.

A7 sub wire: a local car audio shop. 8 gauge power line - about 7' each red & black should be enough for both speakers. Big & cheap! Plan doing both because the modded channel's low end will be louder than the other. You DO want your LR balanced and you don't want the unmodded channel ?feeling left out.? Your toughest challenge is replacing the lousy, cheap wire between the binding posts and the XO board(s).

A sidenote about my experience rewiring my A7 subs for the naysayers: along w/the wire I removed Polk?s LP filtering from one channel. To minimize the effect of the unmodded subs 125 Hz LP filter during testing, I set my active XO to 60 Hz. I powered only the subs while adjusting the XO's LP* output* until they were balanced. Not surprisingly the unmodded subs needed lots more to match the modded subs, remember internal 18 gauge wire. Later using test tones I intentionally set the modded channel lower than the unmodded channel. Tom & kick drums were still louder, more percussive proving thinner wire will compress your output.
* my XO has separate L&R input settings plus HP & LP output settings

I've conducted a variety of tests to my A7s in 2 channel mode. One channel wired or powered one way the other, another. Each time the bi-wired or bi-amped channel out performed the one single wired or full range.

I said that to say this: at the risk of igniting a heated debate, bi-wire* your speakers as follows: buy enough power line and whatever you use to rewire your mids for a double run to your AVR. A single run to your center should do but feel free to experiment.

I can see some winding up to sling mud already. If you're bent on reducing resistance between your AVR and LCR to the absolute minimum and in turn maximizing output* along with improving speaker damping?
* one of your reasons for starting this thread

Finally you?ll need a stout soldering iron for that heavier wire.

Shaloam, Tony.