Warped "audiophile" vinyl

nspindel

Very frustrating. Just got back into vinyl after about a 25 year hiatus. I've gone and bought a few new records, including several of these 180g lp's. I'm a bit frustrated, as I've opened up several brand new albums, still in shrink wrap, put them on the platter, dropped the needle, and watched the tone arm bobbing up and down. I've returned one so far, but have opened a few more since and some have been even worse. Tonight I had one record where the tone arm couldn't even track, it kept skipping from a warp.

What gives? Is the warping due to issues from the manufacturer? Or could it be that these albums aren't being properly stored/warehoused?

Should I be returning every record that's not true and flat? Or as long as the needle is tracking ok is it not a big deal?

gdb

Shrink wrap is the culprit. Get two 13" squares of 3/16"-1/4" plate glass, sandwich record between and expose to direct sunlight briefly and carefully. Flat once again........

nooshinjohn

gdb wrote: »

Shrink wrap is the culprit. Get two 13" squares of 3/16"-1/4" plate glass, sandwich record between and expose to direct sunlight briefly and carefully. Flat once again........

Worst advice ever. If they are new, take them back for a different copy.

nspindel

I was googling a bit, came across similar advice. Sandwich between two plates of 1/4" glass and put it in the oven at 175 degrees for a couple of minutes. I cannot possibly fathom how this can be good for a record. Sure, maybe it straightens out the warp, but at what cost? Surely heating the vinyl to the point where it is pliable has to cause some sonic degradation. I can see giving that a shot for an old record, but for a brand new one? Not an option.

I've also come across some mad-expensive machines that bake the vinyl straight, but I don't feel any differently about that. This cannot possibly be good for a record.

I'm with John. I spent good, hard-earned money, I want a good record. It's just annoying because this is not an isolated event. It's happened with a few records already, and I've only been buying records for about a week.

nspindel

What's the answer to my question, though? If I'm seeing the tone arm bobbing up and down a bit, but the needle is tracking ok, do I care? Am I being unreasonable, and unnecessarily so, for wanting to see brand new records arrive perfectly flat?

brgman

http://vinylflat.com/vinylflatproducts.html

gdb

Someone should go soak their fat head and stop condemning tried and true methods...........

I'd guess that if the cart. tracks OK then there's probably no great harm but, I have to believe that the stylus' cantilever mounting will not profit from the extra motion. If it were me, I'd either return em or flatten em.

gdb

Oh yeah, those things ARE FORMED with heat.

teekay0007

nspindel wrote: »

What's the answer to my question, though? If I'm seeing the tone arm bobbing up and down a bit, but the needle is tracking ok, do I care? Am I being unreasonable, and unnecessarily so, for wanting to see brand new records arrive perfectly flat?

From the link to brgman's suggested Vinyl Flat gizmo (can't believe I spent the time reading that - that's a few minutes I'll never get back!): "It is suggested that you stop using the Vinyl Flat once the warp or dish has been reduced to a playable level. Repeated exposure to heat and/or pressure to obtain a perfectly flat playing surface increases the chance of damaging record grooves and should be avoided."

Please note: I do not condone the use of this apparatus. Heck, I don't even "get" the whole vinyl thing! 'specially when CDs, SACDs and digital recordings in general, can sound SO GOOD while being pretty hassle-free. Anyhoo...carry on! :loneranger:

brgman

[Heck, I don't even "get" the whole vinyl thing! :[/QUOTE]

nuff said

Fongolio

The use of a good record clamp will help flatten all but the most drastic warps. I have one of Joe's The Clamp units and it is fantastic at flattening mild to medium warped records. Clearaudio makes "The Twister" which is decent and not too expensive.

newrival

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Worst advice ever...

thankfully you're here to save us all from it :rolleyes:

gdb

He's a legend....in his own mind!

msg

nspindel wrote: »

Very frustrating. Just got back into vinyl after about a 25 year hiatus. I've gone and bought a few new records, including several of these 180g lp's. I'm a bit frustrated, as I've opened up several brand new albums, still in shrink wrap, put them on the platter, dropped the needle, and watched the tone arm bobbing up and down. I've returned one so far, but have opened a few more since and some have been even worse. Tonight I had one record where the tone arm couldn't even track, it kept skipping from a warp.

What gives? Is the warping due to issues from the manufacturer? Or could it be that these albums aren't being properly stored/warehoused?

Should I be returning every record that's not true and flat? Or as long as the needle is tracking ok is it not a big deal?

Neil, dredging up an oldie here, but where did you settle in on your position with damaged/blemmed new vinyl? I'm in exactly the same place you were when you originally posted this. seriously frustrated with the lack of quality I'm finding on NEW product.

I found your post while searching "vinylflat". skimmed the other posts and see some mixed response. I'm considering giving one of these flattening methods a try, but will do so as conservatively as able. I just saw a surprising method employed where the owner used a couple of pieces of 3/8" glass from the tops of some round end tables to sandwich the record, and then left it in his oven overnight with only the light on - no oven heat in this method, just the heat from the oven light. record went from two sharp hops making the record unplayable, to almost flat. would it revert/hops return? possibly, only time will tell, but perhaps with the amount of vinyl I'm happening across, it might be handy to have a relatively safe maintenance process in the tool belt for addressing this. returns/exchanges are a hassle.

If I proceed, I'll try it on something I can find again, not one of the more rare albums I'm trying to save. most of them seem to play okay, but just seems unnatural and I'd like to find a relatively safe diy method to fix this nuisance without damaging a record.

BlueMDPicker

Fongolio wrote: »

I have one of Joe's The Clamp units and it is fantastic at flattening mild to medium warped records.

Me too. Wouldn't think of parting with it. If one of the three settings won't make it playable, frisbee it.

As far as new, purchased vinyl--take or send it back for sure.

msg

Maybe I'll try that. I know they're not available anymore, but wasn't there another product that Joe recommended after his clamps were unavailable?

gce

nspindel wrote: »

What's the answer to my question, though? If I'm seeing the tone arm bobbing up and down a bit, but the needle is tracking ok, do I care? Am I being unreasonable, and unnecessarily so, for wanting to see brand new records arrive perfectly flat?

No, you're not being unreasonable! If you buy from a reparable dealer you should be able to get a replacement. I like buying from Amazon as they will replace anything with no questions asked.

pitdogg2

gce wrote: »

I like buying from Amazon as they will replace anything with no questions asked.

Wished the above was true but that was not the case in my last Amazon adventure. Bought a new bulb for my TV from "USA" seller which just happen to be a front company for Chinese co. Long story short I paid mucho extra for OE bulb but was shipped OE equivalent from China. It took 3weeks and too many emails and phone calls to get Amazon to do ANYTHING!!!

BEWARE

Nightfall

Clamps only work for one side of a warped record though right? The opposite side would need a clamp for the outside of the record.

BlueMDPicker

Joe's "The Clamp" is a spindle clamp with a downward mandrel pressure over disks (of three different thicknesses) under the record. Imagine the center pole of a tent. As it's raised, the canvas tightens and conforms. Clear as mud?

nspindel

pitdogg2 wrote: »

gce wrote: »

I like buying from Amazon as they will replace anything with no questions asked.

Wished the above was true but that was not the case in my last Amazon adventure. Bought a new bulb for my TV from "USA" seller which just happen to be a front company for Chinese co. Long story short I paid mucho extra for OE bulb but was shipped OE equivalent from China. It took 3weeks and too many emails and phone calls to get Amazon to do ANYTHING!!!

BEWARE

Yeah, but there's a difference between buying from Amazon versus buying from a 3rd party seller on Amazon. Anytime I've bought anything direct from Amazon, returns have been a breeze.

gce

nspindel wrote: »

pitdogg2 wrote: »

gce wrote: »

I like buying from Amazon as they will replace anything with no questions asked.

Wished the above was true but that was not the case in my last Amazon adventure. Bought a new bulb for my TV from "USA" seller which just happen to be a front company for Chinese co. Long story short I paid mucho extra for OE bulb but was shipped OE equivalent from China. It took 3weeks and too many emails and phone calls to get Amazon to do ANYTHING!!!

BEWARE

Yeah, but there's a difference between buying from Amazon versus buying from a 3rd party seller on Amazon. Anytime I've bought anything direct from Amazon, returns have been a breeze.

^^^What he said. I've bought a lot of new albums from Amazon and really haven't had many issue, but when I've had them I get a replacement within 3 days.

Dawgfish

msg wrote: »

Maybe I'll try that. I know they're not available anymore, but wasn't there another product that Joe recommended after his clamps were unavailable?

Yes, Joe recommend the Clearaudio Twister Clamp. I was not lucky enough to get his clamp, but saw ReelTrouble's clamp from Joe in use quite a few times.

I found a clamp very similar to Joe's on the 'Gon several years ago that was made by Simply Physics. It works great, but unfortunately that clamp is no longer available either. Another great clamp is the one available from J.A. Michell. You can find them on EBay in the $50-60 range which is a good bit more reasonable than the Clearaudio Twister. It has a wide diameter and a raised edge on the outer periphery, which helps push the record down when it is screwed down. Another thing is the actual body is made of Delrin which is non resonate.

One thing to keep in mind is to use a washer of some sort (rubber or felt) between the record and platter whenever using a clamp. Otherwise the outer edge of the lp can lift up and away from platter when the clamp is depressed.

In all honesty I find a combination of outer periphery ring and center weight to be the most effective way of dealing with warped vinyl. Unfortunately not every turntable has the room to mount an outer ring or is built sturdy enough to handle the weight of the outer ring and center weight. In those cases a clamp and shim is the next most effective means versus using only a center weight (that does not screw or clamp down).

Nightfall

What's better, couple or decouple? Herbies Mats are designed to decouple vs clamps designed to couple. Has anybody ever compared?

Nightfall

BlueMDPicker wrote: »

Joe's "The Clamp" is a spindle clamp with a downward mandrel pressure over disks (of three different thicknesses) under the record. Imagine the center pole of a tent. As it's raised, the canvas tightens and conforms. Clear as mud?

I get that much and that would work good for one side of the record where the center is raised up on the platter like this

Platter --> | ) <-- Record

but when you flip the record over

Platter --> | ( <-- Record

How would a clamp help anymore as it's the outside that needs to be clamped now. Unless there is something I am missing here or I am not understanding correctly.

Dawgfish

^^This is one of the reasons I find an outer periphery ring and center weight to be the best method, it accounts for both situations.^^

Dawgfish

Nightfall wrote: »

What's better, couple or decouple? Herbies Mats are designed to decouple vs clamps designed to couple. Has anybody ever compared?

The short but somewhat confusing answer is both! A good platter mat has two main functions;

1. Isolate the record from bearing/motor noise and an acoustically live platter like most of the cast aluminum ones.
2. Absorb excess energy from the record that is being produced by the stylus tracing the groove (the downforce of a stylus on a record at the tip of the stylus is actually several hundred to thousands of psi!).

The Herbie's mat does an excellent job with the first item, but not as well with item 2. The same goes for many of the thick rubber mats that typically come on traditional tables with cast aluminium platters. I have tried the Herbie's mat, stock rubber mats, carbon fiber mats, copper/carbon fiber mats, and stainless steel mats. The carbon and metal mats isolate the sound from the platter by using the principle of dissimilar materials to suppress resonance, but they also absorb excess energy from the record while being played. For this reason you want the record to be coupled to the mat.

I have found the carbon and various metal mats (and combos) to sound superior to the Herbie's and rubber mats. In general these mats have a clearer sound, with better imaging, soundstage, and dynamics. Each one of these mats will sound slightly different depending on the type of material(s) being used, but in general sound superior to the rubber, foam, cork, etc. mats you find on the market.

One more thing, a flatter surface is easier to trace by the stylus and tonearm than one that is not flat. For this reason and the reasons listed above you want the record to be flat and coupled.

txcoastal1

Good explanation

Dawg do you have a link or name for this mat

BlueMDPicker

Nightfall wrote: »

I get that much and that would work good for one side of the record where the center is raised up on the platter like this

Platter --> | ) <-- Record

but when you flip the record over

Platter --> | ( <-- Record

How would a clamp help anymore as it's the outside that needs to be clamped now. Unless there is something I am missing here or I am not understanding correctly.

Same principle, same effect. The concentric clamp, exerting downward tension in the record center with a spacer disc beneath the record center, makes the record surface want to conform in a level plane to its concentric edge.

Concentricity?

Schiit works!

Dawgfish

txcoastal1 wrote: »

Good explanation

Dawg do you have a link or name for this mat

Thanks! The carbon fiber, copper/carbon fiber, and stainless mats I have were all manufactured by TTWeights Audio, which unfortunately went out of business in December. You still see their platter mats as well as their periphery and center weights pop up on Audiogon and similar sites from time to time however. I like the copper/carbon fiber the best but it is quite heavy(4lbs) and not compatible with all turntables. The pure carbon fiber mat is very close to the copper/carbon fiber mat in performance and is light enough to use with most tables. I'll post some pics soon.

Dawgfish