various HS/HT upgrade questions

mikemokr

I humbly seek the collective wisdom on a few questions I have re my plans to build a new a/v system, which will be used probably 70/30 for HS vs HT.

Here's what is known:

-- room is 18'x26' with cathedral ceiling topping out at 12'. The fronts/TV will be along a short wall. This is the family room and it opens onto an eating/kitchen area via an opening ~12' wide/7' high at (what when facing the TV/fronts would be) the left rear half of the room.

-- fronts are and will be (for the foreseeable future, anyway) Monitor 7C's.

-- sub (which has been ordered) will be a single SVS 20-39pc.

-- (not that it would affect the HT but fyi, from the kitchen/eating area ceiling are mounted a pair of M3II's.)

-- currently running a 35wpc Onkyo amp (circa 1987) with various separates. Plan to upgrade to a HT receiver of 75-100wpc.


Questions:

1. For the center I'm leaning pretty strongly toward the cs400i. The 1000p is beyond my budget. My main question is whether timbre-matching might be an issue with the 14-year-old Monitor 7C's, and if so, how much of an issue and what would my alternatives be, short of buying new fronts?

2. For the rears I'm trying to decide if the f/x300i's would suffice or should I spring for the f/x500i's, assuming I can shoot the budget even more to hell than I already will have. I plan to wall-mount these (I've got 16-gauge shielded speaker wire running in the walls to banana-plug jacks near the top of the walls in the rear). Here too with either model I'd ask the timbre-matching question re the 7C's.

3. A non-speaker question: Prerequisites for the receiver are 1) a/b channel capability, but I don't need multiroom/multisource; 2) phono input; 3) enough inputs for DVD, CD changer, two cassette decks (although I may wind up selling the one that is not a 3-head Nakamichi) and VCR; 4) Dolby Digital, DTS and Pro Logic II but I'm not going to worry about THX now. And, oh yeah, I want it to sound good ... So, at this point I'm thinking the Onkyo TX-DS595 but am open to suggestions. In particular, I'm sorta intrigued by the idea of Yamaha-style front "effects" channels (and I have wiring in the walls to accomodate this neatly) but from what I can tell, the Yamaha receivers capable of that are beyond my budget. I'm thinking roughly $500 for the receiver at this point.

Thanks in advance.

mike

hoosier21

Hey Mike send me an email, lets talk.

rabernathy@aseng.com

Russ

TroyD

I wouldn't mess with your fronts. The 400i will do nicely I think. A buddy of mine has the 7c's and I have hooked up my 400i with them for demo purposes and it worked out just fine. You could always look for a used one but I think the 400i would do just fine. I think the 1000 is overkill.

Rears, I don't have any experience with the fx's. The M3II's work nicely though. Personally, if you are going to skimp, this is the area to do it.

For your receiver, I'm not a huge fan of DSP's or whatever, I think most of them sound like crap. For 500 you can get a good reciever from Denon, Onkyo, Marantz...etc. I personally like Denon and Marantz (although the new Marantz line has gotten some bad press) but I say listen to them and see what you like. Don't go by wpc ratings alone, a good 50-70 wpc receiver will do nicely. My listening area is about the same size and I have a Denon 70wpc receiver that does nicely.

My only caution about audioreview.com is that most reviews are either a love 'em or hate 'em kind of thing. Ecoustics.com and other places are a good source of info as well.

Enjoy!

Troy

mikemokr

Thanks Troy & doorbell. (Russ, email bounced -- mine is now enabled via the Forum profile link.)

One followup question -- what's the difference between Dolby Pro Logic and Dolby Pro Logic II? The Polk "Surround Formats" article indicates Pro Logic is sorta a backward-compatibility thing for getting as much as possible out of a VCR in a HT, but it doesn't mention Pro Logic II That Yamaha RX-V620 has regular Pro Logic, not II; should I much care either way? Yes, I'll still be using the VCR a fair amount, have a decent library of videotapes (especially music, which wouldn't really be a surround-sound issue, right?).

I've read about Yamaha supposedly doing DSP better than anyone else, some proprietary CAD schemes, but that's not a huge selling point for me anyway.

Meanwhile, it occurs to me as I continue researching this that the 12'-wide x 7'-high opening from the family/HT room to the eating/kitchen area could be a bit of a problem acoustically. I'd think it especially would affect the surrounds -- because of that opening I'm basically limited to putting the rears on the back wall rather than on either side of the main listening area, but in a bipole setup the left rear to some extent will project out into the eating area because there won't be a side wall there to bounce off of (except from 7' on up). And no, there won't be anything I can do about that -- no putting in doors or whatever. SO (if this is making any sense at all anymore) I'm starting to wonder if I'd be better off with front-firing rears than bipoles. Maybe even the M3IIs.

Strong Bad

While I'm not completely up to snuff on the ins and outs of pro-logic II, I'll offer this up.

Pro-logic II seems to be unneccesarily created by Dolby Labs. Gotta be the $$$ factor! It's kind of in the middle of Pro-Logic and Dolby Digital 5.1. Since all of your VHS movies are no doubt in standard Pro-Logic, then this new fangled Pro-Logic II serves no purpose. You only get playback of whats there and that's Pro-Logic. I'm assuming you'll be jumping on the DVD bandwagon and if that's true, then yet again, Pro-Logic II is a waste since all DVD's have Dolby Digital and/or DTS 5.1 tracks onboard (and sometimes the newest 6.1 tracks). Why play back something in the inferior PL II and not in DD or DTS 5.1. Doesn't make sense.

For the fronts, your 7C's are great speakers. Keep them. The CS400i is a great center. You'll be happy matching them together. For the rears, I have the FX500's which are excellant. I'm sure you'll be happy with either the FX500's or the FX300's. I wouldn't go any smaller then the 300's.

I wouldn't worry too much about the timbre matching issue. The old and the new Polks match well. I have a huge set of older Polks, specifically the SDA-SRS 2.3's. I'm running them with the CS400 and FX500's. Sounds like a champ!

Good luck and happy shopping!

John

jcaut

If you decide you want direct-radiators for rears, you might consider the R10's or even the RT15i's. The prices are right, right now.

Doesn't DPL II "derive" five full-range channels from any two-channel source? I've read that it is reasonably effective with stereo music, though I haven't personally heard it. It might be worth a listen.

I've got a DTS Neo:6 mode on my receiver that is similar. I don't like what it does to music, however.

Jason

schumach

I have the F/X300i's in my system and they sound great. I also use the CS400i for my center and there are no complates there.

mikemokr

I appreciate the comebacks.

I'll need to research DPLII some more ... if it "adds value" to stereo music, that might be worthwhile for me, since as I say I expect to use the system probably 70% of the time for HS rather than HT. Then again, do I really need the artificially generated rear channels for music?

Still would like to hear comments (including an "official" recommendation from Polk cust. svc. perhaps?) regarding whether I should bother with bipole-capable rears, given the lack of a side wall in the left rear half of my room.

One new question I have regards the size of the cs400i. In reading various reviews I see now that it is one rather large ****, and I currently have only a 27" TV, which it is not in my budget to upgrade anytime soon. I'm thinking I might need to build a simple shelf to help support the 400i's 14" depth atop the TV. Another alternative would be to put it under the TV (which rests on a table with an available shelf) but that would be only a few inches off the floor. The prime listening area will be ~15' back from the TV/center so I'm not sure it's that big a deal either way; I'll probably wind up trying it in both places, but curious how anyone else might have dealt with this issue.

TroyD

For ambient music purposes, my Denon AVR-1800 receiver has a 5ch stereo mode, that is much better to listening in ProLogic or any other DSP...something to consider. I'm sure Onkyo et al. have something similar.

If you are interested in using all 5 channels for music purposes, I am told that conventional speakers may be more suitable than the fx speakers. I have R10's in the rear and do a nice job.

Troy

mikemokr

now, how do you like that Denon receiver? I presume the AVR-1802 is the current equivalent? From the specs at least it seems comparable to the Onkyo TX-DS595, and similar price. Right now those and the Yamaha HTR-5460 are the ones that have passed my initial screen. Also haven't ruled out the comparable JVC models, as the USB input is something I could probably make use of -- I have a laptop with a USB port and I have a CAT-5 drop where the a/v gear is set up (home LAN w/ cable modem).

mikemokr

And now to test the theory that "there's no such thing as a dumb question" ...

JVC RX-8010V and 9010V are rated for 100wpc x 5 but 120wpc x 2 (stereo). My Monitor 7C fronts are rated for 10-100wpc. Just what is the danger of a blowout in stereo mode? I tend not to crank the music to eardrum-imploding levels anyway, generally more moderate volume. If it makes a difference I presume I'll have the fronts set to "small" since I'll have a hefty sub too. Would there be a danger if I don't push the volume? I presume clipping would be a giveaway that I'm risking a problem but could damage be done under these circumstances even without audible warning signals?

This also would apply to my M3II's in the kitchen, also rated for 100wpc.

juice21

20 watts over isn't going to blow you're speakers. pushing them too hard with insufficient, unclean power will blow them out. the first audible sign that you will blow a speaker is listening at high or even moderate levels and hearing distortion, if you hear distortion begining to occur, you know you've reached the limit of your equipment, turn it down a notch. as long as you are below 'distortion' levels on your respective equipment you will be fine.

TroyD

I like my Denon receiver, I like it a lot actually. I really like the Marantz as well, if you check www.ac4l.com has the SR-5000 for 288 dollars. That is really something to think about, I believe RonP has that receiver as well. I don't know if it has the 5ch stereo or not though. I don't have any experience with the JVC receivers so I really can't comment.

As far as the power goes, no worries, those Monitor 7's will handle it just fine. I have a Carver m1.5t running my RT7's (using the pre-outs on my receiver) and have not had a single problem.

Troy

OrangeToupee

My 2 cents...

Troy speaks truth about 5/6 channel stereo ... holy trancelike state batman!! I recently purchased the Denon 2802 ($549.00 http://www.reliableaudiovideo.com ) and connected these items to it...

1. RT800i's
2. CS 400i
3. Velodyne CT 120 (subber tubber)
4. F/X 500i's (rear surround)

While Troy and others are right about having direct radiators for rears being best for music, even my configuration with the FXer's in back, is delivering musical sound through CD's and such with unbelievable separation and envelopment. I'm literally in awe of what I'm hearing. One problem with this is that your recordings will be exposed for what they are ... so your current favorite artist/album may soon be on your list of second tier CD's.

Currently, all I'm able to listen to are Joni Mitchell's "Night Ride Home," and "Turbulent Indigo." They are recorded so well, each instrument (especially the legendary Wayne Shorter on sax.) soars and arcs from one speaker to the next, all the while deep resonant bass massages your body ... sometimes audibly, and sometimes as the silent masseuse.

It's an entirely different world ... and it's a good one. Best of luck with your decision, it will be an important one,

OrangeToupee

mikemokr

Troy or RonP, any idea how many a/v inputs the SR-5000 has, and whether there's a phono input? The "specs" on the Marantz web site don't give a number more specific than a "wide variety" :mad:

Also, is there a/b speaker capability in that receiver? From http://www.marantz.com/pdfs/u_rcv_sr5000_bck.pdf I can't get a clear answer but I don't think I'm seeing posts for "B" fronts.

thanks again to all for the feedback ... although now I'm more torn than ever over whether to go with f/x or direct radiators in the rear ...

mikemokr

Originally posted by OrangeToupee
http://www.reliableaudiovideo.com )

Judging by the prices on what Polk products they have, I assume they're not an authorized dealer? (I've read the earlier threads on places like brandnamez.com so I think I understand the issues ...) What was your experience with them?

OrangeToupee

Direct radiators for your "B" fronts in rear. Buy these first because they will work best for music (must have receiver with 5/6 channel stereo, for music as well as television ... opinion, sounds great) and that is your greatest initial concern. Then purchase surround channel speakers and place them at your sides when the money comes flowin' in.

This is what must be done, it is also what I must do. I foolishly purchased the F/X'ers first not realizing that my first love was music. However, you can't go terribly wrong either way. If you love your music it would seem obvious to go with compatible "B" front speakers for your rear selection.

Oh, and one more thing ... yes, the CS400i is huge and barely fits atop my Sony 32" television. It almost a balancing act. You have some measure of flexibility though, as you can place the rubber stick-on feet wherever you want to. There is very little margin for error with smaller televisions, so make sure it's stable if you decide to purchase one. It's a fabulous sounding speaker, though, so what choice do you really have?

The OrangeToupee looks the best

OrangeToupee

My experience with them was fantastic. I received my Denon 2802 within a week via UPS, with double boxing and all manner of insulation to provide safe journey. I received my warranty card and documentation, I don't know what the drawback would be if there is any.

Here is a link http://www.reliableaudiovideo.com/info.html that I believe explains everything fairly well. There are others that no doubt perform similarly well.

mikemokr

Originally posted by OrangeToupee
Direct radiators for your "B" fronts in rear. Buy these first because they will work best for music (must have receiver with 5/6 channel stereo, for music as well as television ... opinion, sounds great) and that is your greatest initial concern. Then purchase surround channel speakers and place them at your sides when the money comes flowin' in.

I think I'm now seeing the sign that says Entering Tradeoff County ...

I need the "B" channel for speakers in the kitchen (M3II's). Surrounds at the sides also will not be doable because of the layout of the room/aesthetic considerations. For this reason I'm not looking for a 6.1 or 7.1 receiver.

BUT would there be some way to use my current integrated amp (Onkyo A-8037, circa 1987, 35wpc x 4 if I'm not mistaken) along with the new receiver to 1) power the kitchen speakers, and 2) power a pair of effects speakers that someday I'd like to hang off the front wall? Don't need multisource for the kitchen so all four of those channels would be pumping out whatever the receiver has got going.

This is what must be done, it is also what I must do. I foolishly purchased the F/X'ers first not realizing that my first love was music. However, you can't go terribly wrong either way. If you love your music it would seem obvious to go with compatible "B" front speakers for your rear selection.

And if I go with direct radiators as rears, running out of the rear surround channels, with 5 ch stereo mode capability in the receiver? Not too bad a tradeoff I hope? I also must say that while I expect to do 70/30 HS/HT I'm not sure I'd want to lose the rear surround channel altogether, as I would under your scenario.

Oh, and one more thing ... yes, the CS400i is huge

Upon rereading Polk's HT Handbook, I'm now thinking I'll put the 400i on the shelf under the TV and point it upwards a little as necessary to get the tweeters pointing at seated ear level.

jcaut

I have to say that I'm not that excited about "5-ch Stereo" in my setup. It creates a lot of sound; Good for a party, but doesn't sound good (to me, with my equipment) for critical listening. I don't really care for most DSP modes that simulate surround, either. For a stereo source, I usually just prefer plain-old two channel stereo. But of course, that's just me....

My Denon receiver has a Matrix mode that I use some. The effect is a little more subtle than the other modes, in that it doesn't seem to add a lot of artificial reverb. It adds a spaciousness, especially to acoustic music.


If you believe you'll use your system 70% for stereo music, then I'd say concentrate on having good, relatively full-range, front speakers, a musical sub, and good solid amplification. It seems to me that most of the issues you're getting into here would be more important if you were trying to optimize a HT setup for multichannel music formats like DVD-A.


Concerning your Onkyo amp: You could always use outputs for a second zone, or even tape outs to feed your amp for the other room.

mikemokr

jcaut, thanks for the ideas re the Onkyo ... heh, now you also remind me that LONG ago I had a Marantz portable ("boom box" although somehow I have a problem using the term for that model) that if I recall correctly had a Matrix mode ...

re other thoughts, HS may be the main thing but of course I want kick-**** HT too ...

anyway, I expect to take delivery of a sub tomorrow and I already have my Monitor 7 fronts so ... after hooking up/trying out/tuning/etc the sub, next step probably will be the receiver, and I'll deal with center/rears after that.