looking for the best 12ax7's I can get...

nooshinjohn
nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
edited August 2012 in Electronics
I am looking to get a matched pair of 12AX7's for my new tube amps. I have never done tube rolling before, and I am looking to see what are considered to be the best of the best.
The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited July 2012
    If you would rather have a "true" 12AX7, I would ask what qualities you are looking for from the 12AX7 tube? By qualities, I mean tone, soundstage, transparency, detail, etc.

    I would recommend some RCA or Sylvania (gold lettering (or equivalent)) triple mica black plate 5751's. They are a little lower gain than 12AX7's however. I don't know if that matters.

    5751's have much better bass (typically) than 12AX7's if they are the triple mica's as they are built to withstand becoming microphonic and have very "solid" sound to them.

    What qualities in the tube are you looking for John?

    I would consider Valvo Hamburg 45 degree halo long plate 12AX7'sgetter tubes one of the "best of the best". Also 50's RCA black plate 12AX7's and Tesla E83CC or Telefunken ECC803S tubes. the Telefunkens are very very expensive however. The Teslas are not cheap, but not insanely expensive. you just need to make sure you get the real Teslas and not relabeled JJ tubes. there are A LOT of fake Teslas out there.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • TNHNDYMAN
    TNHNDYMAN Posts: 2,145
    edited July 2012
    John- I've got some Telefunken smooth plate halo getter 12AX7's that came out of a Fisher console that still test good. I'd could put the 2 closest #'s together for you to try a pair if you'd like. Just send me you address via pm. Not new or a perfect matched pair but at least you could get an idea of their sound.
    2-ch System: Parasound P/LD 2000 pre, Parasound HCA-1000 amp, Parasound T/DQ Tuner, Phase Technology PC-100 Tower speakers, Technics SL-1600 Turntable, Denon 2910 SACD/CD player, Peachtree DAC iT and X1asynchorus USB converter, HSU VTF-3 subwoofer.

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,647
    edited July 2012
    What's best depends greatly on the piece of gear, the power tubes (in your case) used and what sounds best to you. Since your amps are custom there is no reference, so pick something and start rolling.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,196
    edited July 2012
    Impossible question to answer, just jump in and start rolling.

    Valvo Hamburg 45* slant getter
    RCA 12AX7 long plate
    Mullard long plate
    Amperex long plate
    Sylvania GB 5751

    All of the above are very scarce NOS/NIB so expect to buy used and expect all but the RCA to cost some $$$.

    I'm sure there are others I am forgetting.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited July 2012
    All of the above listed are great choices. I've tried all of these with good results. One I would like to add to this list are Raytheon long blackplate 12AX7s. I actually prefer them to both the RCA and Sylvania TM BP 5751s and BP 12AX7s. YMMV.
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  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited July 2012
    Give the Psvane 12AX7s a try too. I really enjoyed them in my 300B amp, and they may not be the ultimate, but they are decently priced.

    http://www.audioaficionado.org/tubes-valves/9264-got-my-psavane-12ax7s-today.html
    Jake
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    edited July 2012
    Thanks for the suggestions. I suppose I should have said what I am trying to get out of them.

    What I want to do is tighten up the bass considerably, bring a bit more focus to the mids, and sharpen up the highs, without getting too bright. It is amazing to me that swapping a tube or two can alter the sound so much... Let the fun begin!
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • TNHNDYMAN
    TNHNDYMAN Posts: 2,145
    edited July 2012
    John- got your address, I'll ship tomorrow or Saturday.
    2-ch System: Parasound P/LD 2000 pre, Parasound HCA-1000 amp, Parasound T/DQ Tuner, Phase Technology PC-100 Tower speakers, Technics SL-1600 Turntable, Denon 2910 SACD/CD player, Peachtree DAC iT and X1asynchorus USB converter, HSU VTF-3 subwoofer.

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  • Dawgfish
    Dawgfish Posts: 2,554
    edited July 2012
    Any of the Sylvania, RCA, and Raytheon Blackplate 12AX7s or 5751s will give you the type of sound you describe. Telefunkens, Siemens, and Valvo Hamburgs will also give you this sound. I really like the American Blackplate 12AX7s and 5751s as they really give you everything; lows, mids, highs, detail, large soundstage, wonderful warmth while still being detailed. The German tubes in general tend to be a little more on the neutral side of things while providing great detail, soundstage, bass, and highs. They tend to be flatter in the midrange however and wether or not this is a good thing is up to the listener. I really like the Raytheon long Blackplate, Halo getter 12AX7 as it gives you the detail, highs, and soundstage of a good Telefunken or Valvo Hamburg, while having the mid-range warmth more comparable to a Mullard or Holland Phillips/Amperex tube. The thing is try different ones out as time/budget permits and see what you like and what pairs well with your system. All of the tubes listed above however will put you on the fast track to the better sounding 12AX7s and variants out there. Welcome to the slippery slope of tubes!
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  • doctor r
    doctor r Posts: 837
    edited July 2012
    Beautiful amps John. What tubes (12ax7) are in the amps now? PM sent.
    Rick
    integrated w/DAC module Gryphon Diablo 300
    server Wolf Alpha 3SX
    phono pre Dynamic Sounds Associates Phono II
    turntable/tonearms Origin Live Sovereign Mk3 dual arm, Origin Live Enterprise Mk4, Origin Live Illustrious Mk3c
    cartridges Miyajima Madake, Ortofon Windfeld Ti, Ortofon
    speakers Rockport Mira II
    cables Synergistic Research Cables, Gryphon VPI XLR, Sablon 2020 USB
    rack Adona Eris 6dw
    ultrasonic cleaner Degritter
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited July 2012
    John, first set of tubes I would try are ABSOLUTELY the RCA 5751's with the triple mica black plates. They have a moderate midrange warmth, but still nowhere close to sloppy or low detail level due to this. The bass is spectacular, it's very tight, very detailed and deep. The highs are only slightly exteneded, but nowhere close to bright. The RCA is the most detaild, articulate and I think best (overall) 5751 I've heard.

    My other suggestion would be the Tesla E83CC's. If you buy them from this guy on ebay I gurantee they will be the real thing. The Tesla E83CC's are transparent and neutral. The bass is tight, detailed and articulate. The midrange is not warm, but very detailed. The high end is extended, but not bright. This tube is a what I would consider all of the best qualities of the Valvo Hamburg 45 degree halo getter long plates, but more refined. I have the link to get them below:

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/ULTIMATE-Matched-Pair-NOS-Tesla-E83CC-ECC803S-12ax7-tubes-Ships-US-/180932108860?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a2064e23c

    I have no affiliation with the seller, but am a satisfied customer. I have talked with Nikolay quite a bit about tubes and trust his opinion for the most part.

    I hope this helps. let us know what you try.
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • iskandam
    iskandam Posts: 704
    edited July 2012
    I have no experience with NOS tubes due to the exorbitant prices, so I decided to go with current production tubes. If you're looking for lively, detailed sound with extended and sparkling highs, neutral mids, and great bass, look no further than the TJ Full Music 12AX7.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    edited July 2012
    Thanks guy for all the suggestions. I guess I should ask the same thing in regards to the 12at7's as well. I just looked at the ones I have and they are not even the same brand. I don't even have a clue how that happened,
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,196
    edited July 2012
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Thanks guy for all the suggestions. I guess I should ask the same thing in regards to the 12at7's as well. I just looked at the ones I have and they are not even the same brand. I don't even have a clue how that happened,

    Amperex Bugle Boys with the D getter and flat bar. Hard as hell to find, but 12AT7's (ECC81) are much more reasonably priced compared to 12AX7 (ECC83). Valvo Hamburg, usually from the late 50's, again hard to find, but among the best.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    edited July 2012
    The Bugle Boys are on the way. The ones I got are NOS, made in 1961/France, but are not the D getter.... hope these help.

    I am beginning to think the Sunfire Pre is the issue, as I am listening now with the SC 37 and they sound so much better.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,196
    edited July 2012
    The French made Amperex's are pretty nice too. Not as transparent, open or as tight as the earlier cross-bar D getter type, but very close.

    I have a super rare pair of 1958 Bugle Boys with the cross bar D getter as well as the Treble Cleft logo, which means they are specially selected for the lowest noise and close matched sections. Best 12AT7 I've ever heard!

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    edited July 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The French made Amperex's are pretty nice too. Not as transparent, open or as tight as the earlier cross-bar D getter type, but very close.

    I have a super rare pair of 1958 Bugle Boys with the cross bar D getter as well as the Treble Cleft logo, which means they are specially selected for the lowest noise and close matched sections. Best 12AT7 I've ever heard!

    H9
    Mine have the treble cleft as well, but not as nice as yours... wanna sell 'em?:wink:
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,196
    edited July 2012
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    Mine have the treble cleft as well, but not as nice as yours... wanna sell 'em?:wink:

    Treble Cleft is a good thing, those should sound very nice. Nope, keeping mine. I have 3 pairs of Bugle Boy 12AT7's, (2) Made in Holland with the cross bar D and (1) French made (no treble cleft).

    Another excellent tube is the 1958 or 1959 Mullard ECC81 made in Mitcham, Long Arm D getter (Tk1 production code and "R" instead of "B" for the factory code). Mine are marked Heath by Mullard.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,446
    edited August 2012
    Thanks for all the help guys. The new tubes have firmly put these amps into the realm I was hoping for when I started building them. They have brought a truly emotional connection to the time spent listening to music.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2300 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon 680d DSD

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
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  • TNHNDYMAN
    TNHNDYMAN Posts: 2,145
    edited August 2012
    John- have you tried the Telefunkens yet? I'm curious to your thoughts in sound because I have nothing to compare them to.
    2-ch System: Parasound P/LD 2000 pre, Parasound HCA-1000 amp, Parasound T/DQ Tuner, Phase Technology PC-100 Tower speakers, Technics SL-1600 Turntable, Denon 2910 SACD/CD player, Peachtree DAC iT and X1asynchorus USB converter, HSU VTF-3 subwoofer.

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  • anmurash
    anmurash Posts: 1
    Just got a good experience I would like to share. I just tried Valvo Hamburg 45 degree halo getter in my system and surprisingly they over performed my carefully selected Telefunken West Germany. Another surprise I got with holy grail Mullards f92.
    They did not sound right in my system. Actually they sounded terrible and too syrupy.
    The stock Golden Dragon 12AX7A are also very good tube and fits to all kind of music. The amplifier I have VAC Avatar was voiced for those tubes and sounded pretty good for all types of music. Telefunken and Valco sounded better with acoustic jazz, and classical, but Golden Dragon sounded better for Rock music.
    I only decided to put aside Golden Dragon, because Telefunkens and now Valvos do real magic for set of selected jazz/instrumental records.
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