Bought new Monitor 70's - run with Yamaha HTR-5740

wsnydes

Hi, I'm a new member looking for some advice. I'm not a complete novice when it comes to these things, but I'm no expert either. I'm basically piecing together a 2 channel system that will be used mainly for listening to music. I just bought two Monitor 70's. I'm currently running them with a Yamaha HTR-5740 A/V receiver. They aren't broken in yet, but I'm already noticing that the speakers are begging for more juice. I've got the receiver configured for two channel output. It is not biampable (which I tend to believe wouldn't matter anyway with a passive crossover). What I'm looking for is some advice on how to proceed. I'd like to be economical, but not necessarily cheap either. Would I be better off replacing the receiver with something that is biampable and with a higher wpc rating (currently at 100wpc) or simply get a good appropriate amp (recommendations welcome)? Or is there something in my receiver setup that I'm missing that could improve performance?

I do not intend to make these a part of a surround system as I already have one that I run for movies and such. So expansion isn't in the equation. The receiver will likely be replaced eventually anyway if that helps.

Thanks in advance.

Syndil

Your A/V receiver doesn't have dedicated pre-amp outputs. It has recording outputs for a tape/MD recorder, but those outputs will not be volume controlled--they will be at a fixed level. So if you plan to add an amp to the receiver, you'd have no way of controlling the volume.

So your choices are to ditch the A/V receiver for a two-channel amp/pre-amp or a two-channel integrated.

I would not replace your setup with another A/V receiver just because it has higher wpc or it is bi-ampable.

wsnydes

Thanks Syndil. I didn't even think of that aspect.

Do you have something in mind that might work well for my setup?

Syndil

So many possibilities... I'd just start searching craigslist or eBay or Audiogon for a good deal on an integrated or an amp/pre-amp. Honestly there are so many bargains on really great used equipment I would not even consider buying new, especially if you're on a budget and want to get the most bang for your buck. If you find some possibilities and want some opinions on whether they are a good buy or not, just post 'em up.

Might start by looking for an Adcom GFA-545 or GFA-555 amp. Either will drive the 70's without breaking a sweat, but the 555 will give you more headroom in case you are thinking of upgrading your speakers later.

wsnydes

I do have another question. A quick glance through amp and pre-amp stuff, I worry that I might get over my head a little bit. My speakers are 8 ohm, so i know that eliminates a lot of serious issues with matching components. If I was considering replacing my receiver anyway, would it make sense to simply go that route and bi-amp? And do you have an opinion on bi-amping? I understand the principle, but my basic understanding has me believing that doing so simply cuts the power to all channels, generally speaking with a receiver and no other amps. And the power to the tweeters is wasted since they use so little power to begin with.

If I went this route for example: http://www.amazon.com/Yamaha-RX-V667-7-2-Channel-Theater-Receiver/dp/tech-data/B003P2V52M/ref=de_a_smtd

would I be better off going that route? I don't need or necessarily want something that will shake my house to pieces, which one reason why I don't have a sub to go with these speakers. I feel that they'll provide enough low end sound for me, I just need something to drive them adequately. I like a good, clean sound quality over wall shaking ability, if that helps.

Syndil

The Monitor 70s are Polk's entry-level speaker, with an efficiency rating of 90db. I don't believe you will notice any improved sound by bi-amping them. If you have the option and want to try it, I'd say sure, why not, but I don't think bi-amping is a goal you need to be striving for.

I doubt the Yamaha receiver above would be much of an improvement over what you have now. A/V receivers are great for hooking multiple sources up to a TV and getting sound to all of your multiple speakers for surround sound. That's what they are built for. But to use an A/V receiver for 2-channel listening, you'd be paying for a whole lot of features you would never use, where that money should have instead gone into a higher quality component with less features.

For example, for about the same money as the Yammy 7.2 receiver, you could have this:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/music-hall-a15-2-as-new-75wpc-integrated-amp--3

wsnydes

Thanks Syndil. That actually looks like something that would suit my needs very well. The reason I tend to focus more on the receiver aspect is because I do also have my dish receiver and a dvd player running through it as well. So my line of thinking was that I wuld upgrade the receiver that I was considering anyway and do it with one that would allow me to add an amp later if I wanted. However, I realize that since I only have the two channel's in use, it's not as though I need the extra channels. I'm not really a big believer in bi-amping myself, but it is always nice to get others opinion. The only downside to the amp you attached is that I would have to buy a radio turner, which isn't a big deal and might not even be noticed if I didn't have it. However, it does have a phono input. I do plan on picking up a turntable soon, so that is something that I can use.

Thanks again for the input. You've been very helpful.

Syndil

Glad to help. The Music Hall example was just the first thing I happen to run across. But if you want a tuner, there are plenty of integrated stereo receivers with tuners available, or you could find a preamp/tuner & amp combo, or you could add a standalone tuner.

There's this Outlaw Audio RR2150, for example:

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/outlaw-audio-rr2150

Retails for $699. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html

cnh

Welcome to Club Polk!


That Outlaw would be great for your M-70s. I have a pair in my HT and I use an Onkyo TX-SR 805 to power them along with a CS2 and M-30s. The Onkyo has an honest 130 watts per channel and weighs almost 51 lbs. But to tell you the truth they sound even better when I hook them up to a Denon AVR with pre-outs and an Adcom GFA-555 with 200 watts x 2. The 70s love that combo for music.
But I don't use them much for two channel these days.

Another possibility for you is a Harman Kardon 2 channel HK 3490 (someone was selling one on the forum here, not sure if it's still around?) 120 watts x 2 @ 8 ohms, 150 x 2 @ 4 ohms. I don't think the HK is quite as good as the Outlaw above but it is a lot less expensive!!

cnh

wsnydes

Thanks again. More of general question regarding these integrated amps. I'm more familiar with car audio amps, but even there it's been 10+ years since I've really kept up on them. Life has gotten in the way, so I'm playing a little catch up. The Music Hall amp was a 75wpc amp, and my current AVR is a 100wpc just like the Outlaw amp. Now, I'm assuming that the output generated by these amps will not only be better in general, but a cleaner and have a greater sound stage along with them as opposed to the AVR, right? Currently, my only real complaint with my current setup is that I feel like my 70's are craving more power on the low end. So that is where I really want to improve upon, but with an older receiver I also feel like the mids and highs might also be a little deprived. Is my thinking flawed or am I getting the gist of what I should be looking at in integrated amps?

cnh

The 100 watts on that Outlaw are a lot more than the 100 in a Yamaha mid-level receiver. No contest. Because the Outlaw and the HK can both drive 4 ohm loads (so they have more punch) especially for the bass. As you suspect.

When I added a power amp to the M-70s the first thing I noticed was the NEW authority the "bass" now had and how much less strained and cleaner everything else was.

The Outlaw and the HK are both Stereo receivers--a bit more old school on their power ratings. They also have pre-outs so you could punch up those 70s by using those as a pre-amp in the future.

Other good mid-level integrated amps are NAD and Cambridge Audio.

Here's a gross way to look at things. What's your Yamaha weigh? The HK probably weighs at least as much or more and is only a 2 channel amp! It doesn't drive 7 speakers, only two. The Outlaw is even a little heavier. Most of that weight is in the transformer and supporting capacitors, etc. These are High Current amps with more head room than a Yamaha receiver.

Have fun!

cnh

wsnydes

cnh, if i wanted to go new, would something like this still provide some good punch?

http://www.amazon.com/Harman-Kardon-HK-3390-Receiver/dp/B00198BOAM/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1342480299&sr=1-2&keywords=harmon+kardon+stereo+receiver

i was looking for something at around 100w instead of the 120w, but it's marked down considerably. one thing that i haven't mentioned so far is that I do plan to move, and this equipment would be the primary "entertainment" equipment likely found in a central room on the main level. knowing that, i hesitate at something that is only 80wpc. i'm aware of the HK brand and sound, and have had good experience with them. as someone that is more experienced in this area, i'd be curious to know your opinion and if you've played with this particular, especially since you referenced its big brother.

wsnydes

amazon also has the HK 3490 used for $320 or so. They're in very good condition supposedly. I didn't find any used ones on audiogon. My wife wasn't all that happy that I bought the speakers, so I'm sure this conversation about needing more punch isn't going to go well either. But I think I will see if I can convince her to let me go with a used 3490. I was just reading another thread raving about them. But I would still like some insight on the 3390 if anyone has any. Especially if it isn't worth the extra $80 between a new 80w versus a used 120w.

thanks all for the insight.

tonyb

I guess a more appropriate question would be.....how loud do you play them ? When you say they "are begging for more juice", that tells me your turning it up to the point the music sounds compressed or starts to break up. Very bad. How big of a room are they in and what are you using as a source ?

2 squirrels on a wheel can drive the M70's, really, they are very easy to drive and don't represent a heavy load even to an entry level receiver. As Syndil pointed out, the monitor series is polks entry line, maybe look for a used pair of RTIA 7's or 9's if you want better sound. Think about the source too, crap in equates to crap out regardless of the speaker.

wsnydes

currently, they are in a larger room. my main level where they are located is pretty open. source isn't really the issue because they sound under powered in any of the sources that I've played over them. I'm not disappointed in the sound quality in general, I'm actually pretty pleased with them in that regard. But there is room to add some power at the low end. Even on heavy base songs with CD quality source or better, there isn't a lot of rumble that I would expect. It's pretty tame. That is where I really feel that they need a little more oomph.

The Yammy I am running it is about 13 years old that I originally bought for a home theater setup. I have Yammy speakers (6 total) and an 8" Yammy sub. While I was always happy in general with the sound the system produced, I was always looking for more from the sub in particular. So I know that the AVR is on the weak side to begin with. So much so, that Yamaha actually exchanged my sub because I thought that there was a problem with it. I had the same issues with the replacement. So it has to be the AVR. I replaced this Yammy with a Pioneer VSX-1019AH-K and that system really came to life. Even the sub produces like I always thought that it should. So, I had a pretty good idea that I wouldn't have enough power with the Yammy to satisfy me going into the purchase of the 70's. But I had the receiver laying around and wanted to give it a try and replace the even crappier AVR I was currently using in that room.

So short story long, I kind of expected to be in this boat to begin with. But I didn't want to spend the money if it was going to work out. The Yammy got pretty heavy use as my primary "everything" receiver. It was always on when I was home. So it's also possible that it's a little worn as well.

Syndil

I think the HK 3490 would work fine for you, but I think you could do better at the same price range. Looking at the internals of the 3490:



I see a lot of empty space and standard electronic switching power supplies where I would expect to see large, toroidal power supplies and heatsinks. Not a sign of a high quality component.

This is the inside of a HK 990:



I would feel much better recommending the 990 if you want to stick with HK, but that is a $1,700 receiver (on Amazon).

The point is that if you go with something like the Outlaw, it's going to have much higher quality internals at lower price. The Outlaw does use a toroidal power supply.

wsnydes

would that still be the case even at the 100wpc? I know watts aren't all created equally. it also doesn't have the preamp outputs that i do like in case i wanted to expand later. add some external amps, unless you are saying that if i went with the outlaw that i wouldn't need that capacity.

Syndil

I take it you are referring to the HK 3390, at 80 wpc:



HK's wpc ratings are going to be on roughly the same scale as Yammy's wpc ratings, so if the Yammy feels anemic at 85 wpc, the HK 3390 is going to be more of the same. And neither is going to be anywhere near the performance of the Outlaw, which would be more of a competitor to the HK 990.

BTW if you are confused where I got the 85 wpc rating for the Yammy, Yammy lists its power ratings like this:

100 Watts x 6 (8 ohms, 1 kHz), 85 Watts x 6 (8 ohms, 20Hz to 20kHz)

Unless you are playing a 1kHz tone, the rating is 85 wpc, not 100. And 85 wpc out of a Japanese mass-market receiver is not going to be the same as 85 wpc out of a more respected brand. For instance, here is the inside of an Adcom 5300 stereo amplifier, rated at 80wpc:



If we were to rate the Yammy on the same scale as the Adcom, it would probably be closer to 30 wpc. Or if we put the Adcom on the Yammy scale, Adcom could probably claim 200 wpc.

Point is, don't put too much stock in the wpc rating, especially from the mass-market brands. Go for quality, not quantity.

wsnydes

i mispoke with the 80wpc. i was looking between the HK 3390 and 3490, but then found a used 3490 that was like new for $320, and that is 120wpc. i see that the outlaw is 100wpc. and i missed the pre-outs earlier, so they are there. so that would suit my needs in that department as well. so for your money, you'd go with the Outlaw over the HK 3490.

Syndil

I see you edited your previous post, changing 80wpc to 100wpc, which meant you were referring to the Outlaw, not the 3390. In that case, the response is yes, the Outlaw's 100 wpc is a less-inflated rating than the Yammy's.

And the Outlaw does have preamp outputs.

They are bridged in this photo:

Syndil

wsnydes wrote: »

so for your money, you'd go with the Outlaw over the HK 3490.

Every day of the week.

Not that the Outlaw is the only choice out there, mind you. But it is a brand that I respect and am familiar with, as I currently run an Outlaw 990 pre/pro with my home theater setup.

wsnydes

and at $400, that's a good price as well. I did quite a bit of looking and research last night and didn't find anything cheaper with a comparable condition.

Syndil

I feel like I've been a little too biased towards the Outlaw, so I tried to find some possibilities from NAD and Cambridge, the brands cnh mentioned, but I'm falling short. I was thinking a Cambridge 340T tuner and a 650A integrated would be good, or a NAD C370 integrated + a NAD C420 tuner, but either combo is a few hundred more than the Outlaw. Although they are both definitely sleeker looking, which might help with the WAF. The Outlaw is, well, ugly, if I'm honest.

wsnydes

I'm indifferent on the Outlaw's appearance. That being said, I like the HK's look better, but I also want performance. I've read some more reviews on it this morning and I think I can see why you lean that way. When you see things like "performs above pricepoint" I get intrigued and interested quickly. The Outlaw you linked to was more than the HK, but again, I don't want to get something and feel the immediate need to upgrade. I don't have a sub to fill in the lows (at least right now), so I do want something to push the lows more. The Outlaw seems like it would do that with my new 70's. I'm not opposed to a sub (although my wife is...), so I'd like to appease both of us at the same time. I typically listen to music with her around at a reasonable volume and crank it up a little (not quite to 11) when she's not around. But regardless, I'd like to feel some bass when I listen to music. I don't right now.:sad:

I think I'll pull the trigger on that Outlaw. It's hard to find them for sale used, let alone at that price. At least from the research I've done.

Syndil

It is a pretty good deal. You can buy a B-stock RR2150 directly from Outlaw, but they want $599 even for that.

https://www.outlawaudio.com/mofcart/bstock.html

wsnydes

Why wouldn't someone just buy a new one at the same price?! That doesn't make much sense.

Thanks a lot for the input. I look forward to hooking it up.

Syndil

Well new is a hundred more, but then again, it's only a hundred more.

Congrats on the purchase and let us know how you like the Outlaw!

wsnydes

I need to get my eyes checked apparently. Or get some of these numbers out of my head. Oh well.

I'm waiting for the seller to let me know what shipping costs will be, so hopefully we get that sorted out soon so I can play with it soonish.

Thanks again. I'll let you know.

hertz9753

Syndil wrote: »

I think the HK 3490 would work fine for you, but I think you could do better at the same price range. Looking at the internals of the 3490:



I see a lot of empty space and standard electronic switching power supplies where I would expect to see large, toroidal power supplies and heatsinks. Not a sign of a high quality component.

This is the inside of a HK 990:



I would feel much better recommending the 990 if you want to stick with HK, but that is a $1,700 receiver (on Amazon).

The point is that if you go with something like the Outlaw, it's going to have much higher quality internals at lower price. The Outlaw does use a toroidal power supply.

Why didn't you post the whole review of the H/K 3490?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/hk-3490

Syndil

hertz9753 wrote: »

Why didn't you post the whole review of the H/K 3490?

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/hk-3490

If you read the entire review, it's pretty clear it was written by an amateur. He talks about things like being impressed with the size of the power supply given that it runs only two channels, without mentioning whether it's an electronic switching power supply or a magnetic toroidal power supply, which is a much more relevant concern than just the size of it. He also had to take it to a friend's house for listening tests.