Has anyone tried any newer production tubes that were close to NOS tubes?

Ern Dog

I was on Audiogon and found a recent thread on new stock replacements for NOS Mullards here.

doctor r

I bought a pair of Psvane 12at7 for my Lector CDP. They are in rotation with Tele smooth plates, RCA black plates, and Mullard 10m pairs. The Psvanes spent about 50 hours to come into their own, but they sound more open with better extension than any of the other sets. Now the Mullard 10m bring something special to the music that none of the other tubes touch and it is almost better than sex. I started thinking that the tubes I really like seem to be getting harder to find. I have seen them priced as much as $200 to $300 a piece if you can find them (thanks again Snow). I use them very intermittently to remind me of how special they are, but I want to have a tube I can like and replace with the same tube in 5 or 10 years when it needs to be replaced. The Psvanes are easily good enough to fill that roll. They are extended and open sounding. They began their time a little harsh and two dimensional, but after a long break in period they opened up with very nice tone and sound staging. They do not sound like my Mullards, but closer to the Telefunkens with a little more base articulation. Very different from the organic RCAs. I like them all (love and covet my 10m pair) but I really like the Psvanes. As all tubes (NOS included) have a character that is their own these do also. As far as producing quality sound the Psvanes have it in spades.

Rick

headrott

For those of you enjoying the RCA long black plate 12AX7's, you should give some RCA 5751's with the 3 mica and box getter a try! The good aspects of the 12AX7 long black plates, but more resolution. The only down side I hear is the bass is not quite as deep, but only barely. Everything else is better, IMO. You do lose a little gain, but only barely.

Also, I wouldn't consider the Ei's "new production" as they haven't been made for about 25 years.

F1nut

heiney9 wrote: »

That one hurts Jesse, I know every tube I own like the back of my hand and can recall most brands and types by looking at the plate structure and tube codes, etc. I have spent exhaustive hours over the past 3 years learning, learning, learning. I can assure you no Shuguang tubes here, other than those that shipped with the units.

I don't think you understand, Shuguang has been making tubes branded as other since the late 50's. Therefore, it's entirely possible that at least some of what you own was made by them without you actually knowing it.

As far as the $400 pre-amp comment, I won't comment. Until you hear it, you can assume whatever you want. I don't take this hobby lightly and if it wasn't cutting it; it wouldn't be here. Is it a Joule Electra? No, it sure isn't but you'd be surprised how good it does sound.

I wasn't commenting on the quality of sound, I was commenting on the hypocrisy.

You enjoy your Psvane's and Ei's and the like and I'll enjoy my Mullards, Valvo Hamburg, Amperex, Sylvania GB's, RCA long plates, Mullard GZ34 rectifiers, etc.

I also use NOS Mullard, Sylvania, RCA, Telefunken, Raytheon and CBS-Hytron in my various pieces. However, I don't limit myself to NOS as I have found some of the newer tubes to be as good or better than.

Happy listening!

Dawgfish

Thanks for all the suggestions folks. It looks like I'm going to have a few more tubes to add to my wish list.

heiney9

Dawgfish wrote: »

Thanks for all the suggestions folks. It looks like I'm going to have a few more tubes to add to my wish list.

There is lots of territory to explore and I can honestly say the research and hunt is a big part of the fun for me as well as the final sound. It's amazing how different each tube and tube combo can sound. Lots of good combo's, but it's the GREAT combo's that you stumble upon that make it so much fun!

H9

Dawgfish

headrott wrote: »

For those of you enjoying the RCA long black plate 12AX7's, you should give some RCA 5751's with the 3 mica and box getter a try! The good aspects of the 12AX7 long black plates, but more resolution. The only down side I hear is the bass is not quite as deep, but only barely. Everything else is better, IMO. You do lose a little gain, but only barely.

Also, I wouldn't consider the Ei's "new production" as they haven't been made for about 25 years.

Your right on that. I've tried both the RCA and Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplate 5751s with good success. They are both among my favorite tubes.

Broc I've also found it's the mixing of diffent tube types that get you to audio nirvana. I have a DIY tube preamp that I've been fooling around with that actually sounds very, very good. It uses 6J6 and 6C4 tube types. Both of these types can be readily picked up for very reasonable prices. I picked up a trio of Mullard Blackburn NOS 6J6s for $14 including shipping. Since the tubes are so cheap for this, I've experimented with literally dozens of combinations of tubes with this pre. The best combo I've found is the Mullard 6J6s paired with RCA Greyplate 6C4s. The sound stage is huge with this setup and the tone from lows to highs is perfect. The RCA Greyplates actually sound better with this setup than the much higher acclaimed Blackplate versions of this tube. In my Anthem Amp 1, I've found the best combo is my SED Winged C EL34s, with RCA Cleartop 12AU7s for the inputs and a Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplate 5751 rectifier tube. Thanks to THSmith for this tube suggestion. You were spot on about this combo. I've also tried it with Telefunken Greyplate 12AU7s, a Valvo Hamburg 12AX7, and original Yugoslavian EI EL-34s. This setup sounded very good also, but I prefer just a little more sweetness in the midrange than this combo provided.

As I mentioned earlier, I've got a YS Audio Experience Symphonies + R pre coming in today along with some JJECC803s, and some RCA and Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplates. That's what really got me going with this thread. Fortunately I have some high quality tubes with this setup, but I know how much I like the Amperex, Phillips, Mullard house sound. When I started looking at prices for 12AX7s for these tubes and saw the prices, I started getting a little concerned.

headrott

Dawgfish wrote: »

Your right on that. I've tried both the RCA and Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplate 5751s with good success. They are both among my favorite tubes.

Broc I've also found it's the mixing of diffent tube types that get you to audio nirvana. I have a DIY tube preamp that I've been fooling around with that actually sounds very, very good. It uses 6J6 and 6C4 tube types. Both of these types can be readily picked up for very reasonable prices. I picked up a trio of Mullard Blackburn NOS 6J6s for $14 including shipping. Since the tubes are so cheap for this, I've experimented with literally dozens of combinations of tubes with this pre. The best combo I've found is the Mullard 6J6s paired with RCA Greyplate 6C4s. The sound stage is huge with this setup and the tone from lows to highs is perfect. The RCA Greyplates actually sound better with this setup than the much higher acclaimed Blackplate versions of this tube. In my Anthem Amp 1, I've found the best combo is my SED Winged C EL34s, with RCA Cleartop 12AU7s for the inputs and a Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplate 5751 rectifier tube. Thanks to THSmith for this tube suggestion. You were spot on about this combo. I've also tried it with Telefunken Greyplate 12AU7s, a Valvo Hamburg 12AX7, and original Yugoslavian EI EL-34s. This setup sounded very good also, but I prefer just a little more sweetness in the midrange than this combo provided.

As I mentioned earlier, I've got a YS Audio Experience Symphonies + R pre coming in today along with some JJECC803s, and some RCA and Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplates. That's what really got me going with this thread. Fortunately I have some high quality tubes with this setup, but I know how much I like the Amperex, Phillips, Mullard house sound. When I started looking at prices for 12AX7s for these tubes and saw the prices, I started getting a little concerned.

It sounds to me that the first set of tubes you are using for your Anthem Amp 1 is more about tone (although the RCA clear tops are a little more about detail and resolution than tone) and the second set of tubes (i.e. Telefunken 12Au7's, Valvo Hamburg 12AX7's and yugoslavian Ei EL-34's) are is more about resolution and detail. I have found (for my personal tastes) that I like tone (i.e. RCA 5751 3mica) but also detail and resolution are an absolute must (i.e. RCA 5751).

The problem with Sylvania 5751's (it is somewhat of a small problem) is that they are lower detail and resolution. But, the tones you get are amazing. I prefer the RCA 5751's however because they have tone (although not a lush as sylvania's) but have a huge soundstage and detail and resolution in high amounts.

heiney9

I do have to say last nights listening session that went on into the early morning was quite pleasureable. I found both the tone and resolution as well as dynamics that I really like. I now think back to the first day I received this amp and how disappointed the cheap Chinese tubes were that shipped with it. The Ruby power tubes (Svetlana's) were dreadful.

1962 Valvo (Holland-short plate) ECC83 and 1960 Mullard (Mitcham-short plate) ECC82 are a great combo of tone, resolution, tight bass and clarity. The SED =C= 6L6GC's power tubes are great as well. In fact last night I was pushing bass tones out of the 5B's I didn't think were possible. It's going to take some special tubes to top what I heard. I already am on the hunt for proper back-up pairs.

H9

Upstatemax

F1nut wrote: »

I wasn't commenting on the quality of sound, I was commenting on the hypocrisy.

I don't see any hypocrisy...

Just because he does not really like chinese made tubes does not mean he can't like anything they make.

I think making tubes and making boards/sockets are two different animals.

organ

Dawgfish wrote: »

Thanks for the info. I have the New Sensor versions it looks like. I'm going to have to try some of the originals. I should have been more clear, I've got a new for me pre coming in ;-). It's a YS Audio Symphonies + R that I bought used from Wally of Underwood HiFi. The JJs are supposed to have about 30 hours on them while the RCA and Sylvania Blackplates are unused NOS.

You're welcome. The St. Petersburg tube is the sound you're after. They're known for having a smooth, warm and detailed presentation. I've ran them on several EL34 amps with the same result every time.
Good to hear the JJ's are already have some hours on them. Let us know how the new pre sounds.

heiney9

Be prepared for sticker shock!! IMO, the Svetlana's from New sensor are pretty average when you compare them to the real SED =C= from St. Petersburg. I remember when you could get SED =C= EL34's for about $35/pr. Now they are about double, same with the SED =C= 6L6GC, which are also excellent. :cheesygrin:

H9

Dawgfish

organ wrote: »

You're welcome. The St. Petersburg tube is the sound you're after. They're known for having a smooth, warm and detailed presentation. I've ran them on several EL34 amps with the same result every time.
Good to hear the JJ's are already have some hours on them. Let us know how the new pre sounds.

I got the pre yesterday and had a chance to listen to it for a few hours last night. My initial impressions are VERY positive. It's a great sounding pre. I plan on writing a review for it after I get a lot more time on it and get a good feel for it's sound, both the potentially positives and negatives. I haven't noticed any negatives so far, but that could change with time.

The pre came with the JJ ECC803s already in it for the input tubes and it uses a single GE 6X4 for the rectifier tube. It also came with the original Sovtek tubes, and some Sylvania and RCA Blackplate 12AX7s. I have to admit, I was surprised how well the pre sounded with the JJ ECC803s. My initial impresions are they are really good sounding tube with great tone and detail from top to bottom, and a great soundstage. If you look at this pre on the Pacific Valve website, they actually write a blurb saying they found the JJ 803s to sound the best in this pre in their opinion. Another interesting tidbit is I bought the same exact preamp (matching serial number) that is shown on the pictures for the pre on the Pacific Valve website. More to follow....

Brock, while the price for the real SEDs my be higher than the new sensors, that's still managable. If they sound that much better, which all indications are they do, than to me the increased costs will be worth it. Thanks for the heads up.

headrott

Dawgfish wrote: »

I got the pre yesterday and had a chance to listen to it for a few hours last night. My initial impressions are VERY positive. It's a great sounding pre. I plan on writing a review for it after I get a lot more time on it and get a good feel for it's sound, both the potentially positives and negatives. I haven't noticed any negatives so far, but that could change with time.

The pre came with the JJ ECC803s already in it for the input tubes and it uses a single GE 6X4 for the rectifier tube. It also came with the original Sovtek tubes, and some Sylvania and RCA Blackplate 12AX7s. I have to admit, I was surprised how well the pre sounded with the JJ ECC803s. My initial impresions are they are really good sounding tube with great tone and detail from top to bottom, and a great soundstage. If you look at this pre on the Pacific Valve website, they actually write a blurb saying they found the JJ 803s to sound the best in this pre in their opinion. Another interesting tidbit is I bought the same exact preamp (matching serial number) that is shown on the pictures for the pre on the Pacific Valve website. More to follow....

Brock, while the price for the real SEDs my be higher than the new sensors, that's still managable. If they sound that much better, which all indications are they do, than to me the increased costs will be worth it. Thanks for the heads up.

You should give the real Tesla E83CC's a try in the preamp. The JJ's (again) are an attemp at recreating the Tesla E83CC sound which was trying to recreate (more succesfully then the JJ tubes) the Telefunken ECC803S tubes. The price difference is significant between the two tubes, but when I put the Tesla E83CC tubes into my DAC I was very impressed. The soundstage is huge, the bass solid and deep, they have a neutral sound and are very detailed. Plus, unlike the JJ ECC803 S tubes, the Teslas were tested to last 10,000 hours (on the spec sheet). Again, it's the difference between a true NOS tube and an attemp at recreating a true NOS tube. Just a thought.

Greg

organ

Dawgfish,
That's great news man. I'm glad you're enjoying the pre amp so much. Also great to hear you got a very unique piece that was featured on their website. Looking forward to reading your review. Don't forget the pics of your rig too :-).

As for the New Sensor vs St Petersburg EL34's. I think both are excellent tubes. Each one has something to offer that the other doesn't. I prefer the St Petersburg because I like my mid range as rich as possible and I like to keep my system on the warm side of neutral. Someone looking for a more forward and neutral presentation with as much extension on both ends would prefer the New Sensor version. Like I said, they're both excellent tubes, it's just a matter of preference.

Enjoy the new gear.

heiney9

I have to disagree Organ, the New Sensor Ruby labeled tubes (same construction as Svetlana) are horrible and nothing like you describe. Very hashy and lumpy sounding tubes. Zero definition, muddy bottom end and nasally midrange. Real toilet floaters, IMO. Perhaps they aren't relabeled Svetlana's from New Sensor but that's the info I got off the 'net.

H9

organ

Their bass is tighter, mids more forward, and more extension on both ends compared to SED everytime I try them. Not mushy at all. I don't know anything about Ruby tubes and will probably never try them because as far as I know, they just-re label tubes.

heiney9

It is possible the Ruby's I have aren't the same as New Sensor Svetlana's. Because Ruby's are all rebrands and I'm sure they rebrand more than one current production tube. I read in a few places including tube asylum they are Svetlana's, perhaps some are and some aren't. Another reason I don't care for many new production tubes.

H9

zingo

I believe Ruby's are select, rebranded Shuguang or JJs depending on the tube type.

Dawgfish

organ wrote: »

Dawgfish,
That's great news man. I'm glad you're enjoying the pre amp so much. Also great to hear you got a very unique piece that was featured on their website. Looking forward to reading your review. Don't forget the pics of your rig too :-).

As for the New Sensor vs St Petersburg EL34's. I think both are excellent tubes. Each one has something to offer that the other doesn't. I prefer the St Petersburg because I like my mid range as rich as possible and I like to keep my system on the warm side of neutral. Someone looking for a more forward and neutral presentation with as much extension on both ends would prefer the New Sensor version. Like I said, they're both excellent tubes, it's just a matter of preference.

Enjoy the new gear.

Thanks Organ! Just for an update last night I was listening to the new pre and decided to play around with the tubes some. I like the detail and soundstage of the JJ tubes, and they are on the slightly warm side of things, but again I prefer Amperex and Mullard levels of warmth. The pre came with a pair of Sylvania Triple Mica Black Plate 12AX7s and a pair of RCA Double Mica Greyplate 12AX7s (I originally thought they were including blackplates). The pre uses three 12AX7s (1 for input, 2 for each channel) and 1 6x4 as a rectifier. I tried the Sylvania TM BPs on the left and right channels and while the tone was awesome, I lost a lot of detail in the highs and with soundstage and imaging (I know I need to break the SYlvanias in as they are brand new).

I next tried the RCA DM GPs and they had most of the detail of the JJs, but definitely had more warmth in the midrange. I love the way vocals sound with warmer tubes like Amperex and Mullards. They give you that singer is in the room with you type of sound that makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. I still thought I was missing some of the detail in the highs that I was getting with the JJs however. I love the way cymbals sound with the JJs, I'm a drummer and they have more detail and natural tone in the cymbals (especially jazz ride cymbals) than any tube I've ever tried (Including Telefunkens, Amperex, and Mulllards). It actually sounds like a real ride cymbal is being played in the room with you with these tubes which is something I never got with any other tube (or solid state gear for that matter).

I pulled the RCAs out of the left and right channel tube sockets and put back in the JJs. Immediately the detail in the highs that I really like was back, but I missed that warmth in the vocals. Next I decided to try the RCA DM BP in the single input tube position while still running the JJs on the left and right channels. Bingo! This combo had the detail of the JJs, but with a touch more of warmth and liquidity in the midrange. It sounds simply stunning. The bass is very accurate also. So far this setup is giving me everything I'm looking for, great tone from top to bottom, wide, wide soundstage, pin-point imaging, nice accurate but punchy bass, and great detail. It's as close to perfection as anything I've heard in any of my systems past or present. Now, I wonder what the pre would sound like with an Amperex or Mullard 12AX7 in the input tube position........

heiney9

Don't forget about Valvo Hamburg 12AX7's w/the angled halo getter (expensive but not as expensive as long plate Mullard or Amperex Holland) I've given up in the time being on the long plate Amperex and Mullard tubes because they are getting close to $200 pair for good used ones.

H9

Dawgfish

heiney9 wrote: »

Don't forget about Valvo Hamburg 12AX7's w/the angled halo getter (expensive but not as expensive as long plate Mullard or Amperex Holland) I've given up in the time being on the long plate Amperex and Mullard tubes because they are getting close to $200 pair for good used ones.

H9

Believe it or not I just happen to have an extra Valvo Hamburg 12AX7 w/the angled halo getter laying around. It came with my Anthem Amp 1. I tried it in the input tube position while running the two RCA Double Mica Greyplates in the left and right gain stages and it sounds even better than the JJ/RCA DM GP combo I mentioned above. I've got two Amperex 12AX7s on the way. This is going to be fun.....

organ

Dawgfish wrote: »

Thanks Organ! Just for an update last night I was listening to the new pre and decided to play around with the tubes some. I like the detail and soundstage of the JJ tubes, and they are on the slightly warm side of things, but again I prefer Amperex and Mullard levels of warmth. The pre came with a pair of Sylvania Triple Mica Black Plate 12AX7s and a pair of RCA Double Mica Greyplate 12AX7s (I originally thought they were including blackplates). The pre uses three 12AX7s (1 for input, 2 for each channel) and 1 6x4 as a rectifier. I tried the Sylvania TM BPs on the left and right channels and while the tone was awesome, I lost a lot of detail in the highs and with soundstage and imaging (I know I need to break the SYlvanias in as they are brand new).

I next tried the RCA DM GPs and they had most of the detail of the JJs, but definitely had more warmth in the midrange. I love the way vocals sound with warmer tubes like Amperex and Mullards. They give you that singer is in the room with you type of sound that makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck. I still thought I was missing some of the detail in the highs that I was getting with the JJs however. I love the way cymbals sound with the JJs, I'm a drummer and they have more detail and natural tone in the cymbals (especially jazz ride cymbals) than any tube I've ever tried (Including Telefunkens, Amperex, and Mulllards). It actually sounds like a real ride cymbal is being played in the room with you with these tubes which is something I never got with any other tube (or solid state gear for that matter).

I pulled the RCAs out of the left and right channel tube sockets and put back in the JJs. Immediately the detail in the highs that I really like was back, but I missed that warmth in the vocals. Next I decided to try the RCA DM BP in the single input tube position while still running the JJs on the left and right channels. Bingo! This combo had the detail of the JJs, but with a touch more of warmth and liquidity in the midrange. It sounds simply stunning. The bass is very accurate also. So far this setup is giving me everything I'm looking for, great tone from top to bottom, wide, wide soundstage, pin-point imaging, nice accurate but punchy bass, and great detail. It's as close to perfection as anything I've heard in any of my systems past or present. Now, I wonder what the pre would sound like with an Amperex or Mullard 12AX7 in the input tube position........

That's great to hear man. The NOS tubes should sound better when broken in. Make sure to make a mental note (or written) of the results you get from different tube combos. Don't be surprised if you change output tubes in your amp and realize it doesn't sound right with whatever combo you may be running in your pre amp :-). IME, Mullard is one of those tubes that always go well in just about every situation.

heiney9

Dawgfish wrote: »

Believe it or not I just happen to have an extra Valvo Hamburg 12AX7 w/the angled halo getter laying around. It came with my Anthem Amp 1. I tried it in the input tube position while running the two RCA Double Mica Greyplates in the left and right gain stages and it sounds even better than the JJ/RCA DM GP combo I mentioned above. I've got two Amperex 12AX7s on the way. This is going to be fun.....

It should sound better , The Valvo Hamburg with slant getter is a really nice, clean, neutral and transparent tube. Among my favorites.

Have fun. Which Amperex did you get? Like I said the long plate D getter Holland versions are really expensive but the early short plates with the large round getter sound almost as good. I have a pair of Valvo Holland short plates with large getter and I swear those in combination with the early Mullard short plate Mitcham made ECC82 is simply phenominal. My jaw dropped at how great that combo was. Vocals and soundstage presence to die for and my 5B's were putting out bass notes I didn't think they were capable of.

That's where the fun begins :cool:

H9

Dawgfish

I've got the early Holland short plates with the round getter. I'm a big fan of Holland Amperex/Phillips tubes as you know. They're by far my favorites of the 6922s (well maybe not by far, I really like the Mullard and Brimars I've tried before also). I can't wait to hear the 12AX7 versions.

Organ, thanks man. I've been writing notes down on the different combos. The way things sound right now, I don't think I'm in any hurry whatsoever to change the power tubes in the amp. When it's time to replace the EL-34s, I'm definitely going with the original Winged Cs. Thanks to everyone for their feedback.

Dawgfish

Just an update. I have found the holy grail tube set-up for my new pre. The set-up is using a Sylvania Triple Mica Blackplate 5751 in the input stage while using Amperex Holland Short Grey Plate Halo Getter 12AX7s in the left and right channel gain stages. This setup is pure magic! Other combos that were quite nice were using a Mullard Blackburn 12AX7 in the input tube position with the two Amperex tubes, a Sylvania Long Black Plate D Getter 12AX7 with the Amperex tubes, and a Sylvania Double Mica Blackplate 12AX7 with the Amperex tubes. Actually the Double Mica Blackplate Sylvania sounded the best out of all of them, including the TM BP 5751, but it became microphonic a few hours after installing. Looks like I'm going to have to get a few more Sylvania DM BP 12AX7s!

heiney9

Amperex-Holland and Sylvania 5751 are very hard to beat. Pricey, but a magical combination. I have found others, but that so far has been in my top 3 or 4.

Amperex/Valvo-Holland large halo, short plate ECC83 and 1960 Gf1 Mitcham made Mullard ECC82 short plates are simply another stunning combo.

I did just score some long plate 1958 Mullard ECC83's, just got them today. Can't wait to try them.

H9

P.s. a combination like the above and what you have can NEVER be achieved with current production tubes, simply not possible. Just like there will never be another 427 Shelby Cobra.

Dawgfish

Nice score on the long-plate Mullards! You're going to have to tell us what you think of 'em. Oh yeah and I agree totally with you on the NOS vs current production tubes, at least till I can hear one that compares. I'm putting my money on the vintage tubes though unless I'm proven wrong. I may not be from MO but......

headrott

heiney9 wrote: »

Amperex-Holland and Sylvania 5751 are very hard to beat. Pricey, but a magical combination. I have found others, but that so far has been in my top 3 or 4.

Amperex/Valvo-Holland large halo, short plate ECC83 and 1960 Gf1 Mitcham made Mullard ECC82 short plates are simply another stunning combo.

I did just score some long plate 1958 Mullard ECC83's, just got them today. Can't wait to try them.

H9

P.s. a combination like the above and what you have can NEVER be achieved with current production tubes, simply not possible. Just like there will never be another 427 Shelby Cobra.

You will like the Mullard long plates very much Brock. Are they D-getters or halo getters? There is not a drastic difference between the two, but a little different. Detail amount a little higher in the halo getters, IMO. Let us know what you think.

Dawgfish: The only thing I don't like about the Sylvania TM BP 5751's verses the RCA TM BP 5751's is the detail amount the RCA's have. The tone is absolutely better with the Sylvania's however. It's a trade off, but depends on the other tubes involved and your preferences. I wish there was tube that had the detail of the RCA's but the tone of the Sylvania's. That would be the "ideal" tube, IMO.

Dawgfish

Thanks Headrott. I've heard/read that regarding the RCA 5751 TM BPs. I'm keeping my eyes open for two or three that won't break the bank. I do have a source for some fairly reasonably priced RCA TM BPs, but I'm just hoping they have them in stock. If they still have any in stock this weekend............