I joined the SDA club

Crashdot

I picked up a pair of SDA-SRS 2.3 speakers yesterday for a good price. Having never heard these before (as the owner had them set up backwards which I didn't discover until I got them home), I am immediately impressed at the 180 degree soundstage. I had to check four times to make sure my surround speakers didn't get turned on by accident.

Cheers!

vstarkwell

Congratulations!!!!!

schwarcw

Congrats on your new SRS 2.3s! I know that 180 degree sound is a little startling the first time that you experience it. There are many ways to tweek that speaker to make it better.

Regards,

leroyjr1

Congrats!!

chandler9a

Congratulations! and welcome to the SDA club. I grew up on that model, great speakers you have there, I always felt like they don't get enough credit. What are you running them with? Are you planning on doing any upgrades to them? I will tell you its worth it but enjoy them as they are for now.

Crashdot

The wide sound stage did take me by surprise. My listening room has terrible acoustics due to concrete walls and floors, so I have a ton of acoustic foam up. This can mute high frequencies a little, so initially the speakers were subdued. I equalized a tiny bit, and suddenly everything changed. I was listening to the 24/192 Alan Parsons Project I Robot, and started hearing tracks coming from as far to the side as my surround speakers, but I was running in stereo. I kept checking the surrounds, and indeed it was just the SDAs fooling me. Many of the recordings I have listened to are similarly impressive. The one thing I may do when I reorganize, is move the speakers a little closer together (currently 10 feet apart, 10 feet from listening position) since the manual suggests this for reflective environments.

I am using a Denon AVR-4311CI, because it supports 4-ohm and 6-ohm speakers. I have the SDAs bi-amplified so they are getting 140 watts/channel x2, and as I can't listen to these terribly loud in my complex, I think this will be sufficient.

I'm not sure I can afford to upgrade the crossovers, but I do have six RD0 tweeters that I can try. I think that with a little acoustic adjustment and proper placement I will be quite happy as they are. I'm glad I took a chance on these.

Cheers

GlennDog

For some reason, your writing makes me think UK . . are you English? . . not there's anything wrong with that! . . . btw Congrats! on your new puppies!! and welcome home!

F1nut

Crashdot wrote: »

I picked up a pair of SDA-SRS 2.3 speakers yesterday for a good price. Having never heard these before (as the owner had them set up backwards which I didn't discover until I got them home), I am immediately impressed at the 180 degree soundstage. I had to check four times to make sure my surround speakers didn't get turned on by accident.

Cheers!

Are they 2.3's or 2.3TL's. How do you know he had them backwards?

I am using a Denon AVR-4311CI, because it supports 4-ohm and 6-ohm speakers. I have the SDAs bi-amplified so they are getting 140 watts/channel x2,

Your AVR has only one power supply for all the channels, therefore it is incapable of bi-amping. Some might call what you're doing passive bi-amping, I call it ghetto bi-amping. True bi-amping not only requires separate amps, but active crossovers as well.

headrott

Crashdot wrote: »

The wide sound stage did take me by surprise. My listening room has terrible acoustics due to concrete walls and floors, so I have a ton of acoustic foam up. This can mute high frequencies a little, so initially the speakers were subdued. I equalized a tiny bit, and suddenly everything changed. I was listening to the 24/192 Alan Parsons Project I Robot, and started hearing tracks coming from as far to the side as my surround speakers, but I was running in stereo. I kept checking the surrounds, and indeed it was just the SDAs fooling me. Many of the recordings I have listened to are similarly impressive. The one thing I may do when I reorganize, is move the speakers a little closer together (currently 10 feet apart, 10 feet from listening position) since the manual suggests this for reflective environments.

I am using a Denon AVR-4311CI, because it supports 4-ohm and 6-ohm speakers. I have the SDAs bi-amplified so they are getting 140 watts/channel x2, and as I can't listen to these terribly loud in my complex, I think this will be sufficient.

I'm not sure I can afford to upgrade the crossovers, but I do have six RD0 tweeters that I can try. I think that with a little acoustic adjustment and proper placement I will be quite happy as they are. I'm glad I took a chance on these.

Cheers

Congratulations on the 2.3's, and welcome to the club! BTW, are they RD0's 194's or 198's? And, are the speakers 2.3's or 2.3TL? When you have the money, you will like the effects of redoing the crossovers. It is easily worth the money for the benifits you will gain. Also, you should apply dynamat Xtreme to the drivers and PR, put JB Weld on the drivers and as you said, put the RD0 194's in to the 2.3's or RD0-198 into 2.3TL's. You'll love the effect of these cheaper mods. But in the ong run, you should do the crossovers as well. Enjoy them!

Edit: Jesse beat me to it.:biggrin:

Crashdot

GlennDog wrote: »

For some reason, your writing makes me think UK . . are you English? . . not there's anything wrong with that! . . . btw Congrats! on your new puppies!! and welcome home!

No, I'm from the midwest in actuality. Cheers though!

Crashdot

F1nut wrote: »

Are they 2.3's or 2.3TL's. How do you know he had them backwards?
Your AVR has only one power supply for all the channels, therefore it is incapable of bi-amping. Some might call what you're doing passive bi-amping, I call it ghetto bi-amping. True bi-amping not only requires separate amps, but active crossovers as well.

He had the left and right speakers swapped. I didn't notice this until after I got the speakers home and unpacked them. When I heard the speakers at the owner's place, I was not impressed, but thought that it might have been due to his amplifier or acoustics. I'm glad I bought them anyway!

The AVR has only one power supply, but as far as I understand, separate amplifier circuits for each channel. With one channel, I am limited to 140 watts per amp, but if I bi-amp, more of the power from the power supply is available to the speaker. The product description says "The equal power amp design features 9 discrete power amp circuits, and each channel is rated at 140 watts (8 ohms, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, .08% THD). The amplifier section also features the ability to easily handle 4 ohm speakers." Presumably the amplifier power supply can drive all 9 channels and should therefore have a fair amount of power handling capacity, at least as much as I need anyway. I have been up till now, using two RTA12Bs in addition to seven Monitor 5jr's which are 4 ohm speakers. There are specific Bi-amp settings in the receiver for this application.

I can't debate true bi-amping, but I think I am achieving my objective, which is to supply more power to the speakers.

The speakers are 2.3 with SL-2000 tweeters I believe, and I have RD0-194 tweeters in storage.

Cheers

drumminman

Congrats on your new babies! Very good suggestions made above on tweaks and upgrades. :cool:

As much as you like them now, they're capable of a whole lot more.

heiney9

Crashdot wrote: »

I can't debate true bi-amping, but I think I am achieving my objective, which is to supply more power to the speakers.


Cheers

You aren't. Think of it this way, a 4 wheel drive truck in 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive still has the same horespower. HP doesn't magically increase just because you engage the other two wheels. Same with the AVR, the power output is limited by the power supply and in those receiver current limiting, no matter how many channels you have running. AVR's can NOT properly power a pair of SDA's. When I say "properly" I am talking about getting the best performance from them. Congrats on the new SDA's.

H9

heiney9

Crashdot wrote: »

The product description says "The equal power amp design features 9 discrete power amp circuits, and each channel is rated at 140 watts (8 ohms, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, .08% THD). The amplifier section also features the ability to easily handle 4 ohm speakers." Presumably the amplifier power supply can drive all 9 channels and should therefore have a fair amount of power handling capacity, at least as much as I need anyway. I have been up till now, using two RTA12Bs in addition to seven Monitor 5jr's which are 4 ohm speakers. There are specific Bi-amp settings in the receiver for this application.

Cheers

That right there says it all, "product description" of course the marketing people are going to make it sound like that. It doesn't matter how many channels it has, it's still sourced from one power supply that can only supply so much no matter how many channels are incorporated or combined. 5JR+'s despite possibly being 4 ohm are a very easy load. I have 5B's which are 4 ohm and I can run them with a 9wpc integrated amp to fairly loud output.

F1nut

Crashdot wrote: »

He had the left and right speakers swapped. I didn't notice this until after I got the speakers home and unpacked them. When I heard the speakers at the owner's place, I was not impressed, but thought that it might have been due to his amplifier or acoustics. I'm glad I bought them anyway!

Ok, it does sound like you have them set up correctly now. Just to check, you should have the row of 4 drivers on the outside edge.

The AVR has only one power supply, but as far as I understand, separate amplifier circuits for each channel. With one channel, I am limited to 140 watts per amp, but if I bi-amp, more of the power from the power supply is available to the speaker. The product description says "The equal power amp design features 9 discrete power amp circuits, and each channel is rated at 140 watts (8 ohms, 20 Hz to 20 kHz, .08% THD). The amplifier section also features the ability to easily handle 4 ohm speakers." Presumably the amplifier power supply can drive all 9 channels and should therefore have a fair amount of power handling capacity, at least as much as I need anyway. I have been up till now, using two RTA12Bs in addition to seven Monitor 5jr's which are 4 ohm speakers. There are specific Bi-amp settings in the receiver for this application.

This is where the power supply limitations come into play. The more channels the AVR has to drive, the less power per channel it can provide. It says each channel is rated at 140 watts, but that is a not with all channels driven, probably only 2. By the time you get to driving 9 channels the wpc will have dropped considerably, so by bi-amping you are driving all of the speakers with less power.

I can't debate true bi-amping, but I think I am achieving my objective, which is to supply more power to the speakers.

See above.

falconcry72

F1nut wrote: »

...you should have the row of 4 drivers on the outside edge...

Why did they switch this with the TL's? Do they sound a lot different?

falconcry72

falconcry72 wrote: »

Why did they switch this with the TL's? Do they sound a lot different?

I never realized that they switched the driver configuration from the 2.3's to the 2.3TL's until now. Anybody have any insight?

drumminman

falconcry72 wrote: »

I never realized that they switched the driver configuration from the 2.3's to the 2.3TL's until now. Anybody have any insight?

I've read about this but I can't remember - F1nut is one of the 2.3 experts around here, maybe he'll chime in.

Crashdot

I'm not an electrical engineer, so I can't really argue these points. This is the information upon which I'm basing the decision to bi-amplify is essentially that I called Denon and asked if there was any benefit in doing so, and they said absolutely yes. I'm not saying that anyone else should use an AVR, or that anyone is wrong to say that I shouldn't "ghetto bi-amp".

Regarding the capabilities of this model, here are the results of independent testing, which show that Denon's specs were slightly conservative:

http://issuu.com/homecinemachoice/docs/hcc193denon?mode=window&pageNumber=6

Also worth noting is that since I have a horrible bass resonance problem at 46hz, the speakers are running with a LPF of 60hz, with low bass re-directed to dual subwoofers on opposite sides of the room. This cancels the bass buildup as verified by SPL measurement of 1khz stepped frequency test tones, and also presumably reduces the power required by the SDA speakers since the subs have their own amplifiers to reproduce these frequencies.

In any case, I am quite pleased with the sound of these speakers, and unless my receiver starts to suddenly experience audible distortion or thermal shutdown, there is no way I am replacing it since I _just_ bought it. Additionally, I can't and won't be listening to any of these speakers loudly, partially because I live in a condominium, buy mostly because I find that fatiguing and prefer moderate to low volume.

Regarding 5jrs being an easy load, I can tell you that with just 5x5jrs (before I got the RTA12Bs), my previous AVR-4306 would experience thermal shutdowns at even low volume, forget about including the RTA12s. The 4311 has never had any such issue even with seven 4 ohm speakers driven. Hopefully this means the current model is better suited to this type of speaker.

Cheers

heiney9

Again, if you call the company that made the product, they are usually biased so of course they are going to tell you what you want to hear. Try it and if for some reason you hear a difference, then more power to you. But passive bi-amping usually results in no difference for all the reasons already stated. You can magically make more power by using a seperate channel that gets it's power from the same source.

You won't get 280 watts to each speaker by passive (ghetto) bi-amping. Electricity doesn't work that way at all. The thing you are missing is we have been there and experienced what you think you are trying to do, what you are thinking and what happens in reality aren't even close. Because you don't understand basic electrical current flow, etc.

H9

renowilliams

Congrats on the new speakers. As others have already stated,you will not realize the true potential of your speakers till you add some external amplification. I initially had a pioneer elite avr driving my sda's but when I hooked up my newly refurbed Carver TFM-35,it was the difference between enjoyable listening and nirvana.

audio_alan

Congrats on the SDAs! Those were the first set of SDAs I bought, and then I was hooked. Since then I've bought several more sets of different model SDAs, new amps, new cables, a new tube pre-amp, etc. Not to mention the music buying spree I've been on. SDAs really rejuvenated my interest in just sitting and listening to music. The more upgrades you make, the more you can appreciate really listening to the music, and not just treating it like background noise like most people...

Down the rabbit hole you go. Have a nice trip! :cheesygrin:

Crashdot

I misunderstood the reason for bi-amplification with this receiver, as I thought that each circuit was strictly limited to 140w, which is less than the power output capability of this unit in stereo. The total power consumption of this receiver can go as high as 780 watts, so I thought that I would need to maximize the number of amp circuits used. I thought that in order to get the full output of the receiver to the speakers, I would need to bi-amp.

This seems to have been an error on my part, as the independent testing seems to indicate stereo output at 8ohms at 175w (>140w). I can conclude that with a single set of speaker wires, if these speakers are 6 ohm, I should be getting ~185w per channel which is probably adequate for my listening needs. I understand that the recommended power is 50-750w. I do have an NAD T763 300w receiver in the other room, but it is not well suited to my AV setup which needs a lot of HDMI inputs, and Denon Link for digital playback of SACDs and DVD-Audio. That receiver is powering five Monitor 5jrs that I use as recording studio monitors. There is an 800w QSC amp in the basement that I can try, but I am sure is quite excessive for my needs. Does anyone here run SDAs with that kind of power?

Also, it is not that I don't understand basic electrical current flow, it is that I do not know how this or any amplifier is designed; I don't exactly have schematics. The literature, some of the discussions, and Denon technical support all indicated a clear benefit from bi-amplification. When I look for answers on the Internet, I seek a consensus, and this was the consensus until I posted here. I get that the power supply can only output X amount of power, but between that and the speaker outputs, I have no idea what is being done, and assumed that I was getting around a published bottleneck. I can admit if this was not the case.

So my question would be, is there any advantage or disadvantage to passive bi-amplification?

The manual states that using the receiver's bi-amplification feature "prevents the back electromotive force (returned force without output) of the woofer sent to the tweeter, which affects the sound quality of the tweeter".

This idea is repeated by some knowledgeable people such as a B&W engineer and a hardware reviewer on another site. Reduced distortion is what I am trying to achieve, regardless of how this is accomplished or my understanding of much power is feeding the speakers. I can't get anywhere close to 0 db volume where I live, more like -35db, so I hopefully have enough power to provide good sound.

On to other topics, what is the reasoning for using spikes, and what can I do with regard to speaker placement if the center (vocals for example) are distant sounding, or for any other concerns?

Thanks

Oldfatdogs

Enjoy your new speakers,I bought some 1cs recently I cant get enough.Music is much more enjoyable.Dan

F1nut

falconcry72 wrote: »

Why did they switch this with the TL's? Do they sound a lot different?

It's not that they switched it with the 2.3TL's, it's that they made the 2.3's a bit different than other SDA's.

Yes, they sound different as they use different drivers, tweeters and hence different crossovers.

F1nut

There is an 800w QSC amp in the basement that I can try, but I am sure is quite excessive for my needs. Does anyone here run SDAs with that kind of power?

Pro amps are not suited to high quality home audio.

So my question would be, is there any advantage or disadvantage to passive bi-amplification?

I can think of no advantage. Disadvantages include lower wpc to all channels and higher distortion.

The manual states that using the receiver's bi-amplification feature "prevents the back electromotive force (returned force without output) of the woofer sent to the tweeter, which affects the sound quality of the tweeter".

Without completely separating the high/low frequencies via an active crossover the above does not apply.

On to other topics, what is the reasoning for using spikes

They make the speakers sound better.

what can I do with regard to speaker placement if the center (vocals for example) are distant sounding

Adjust the speaker level via the menu in your AVR.

Crashdot

F1nut wrote: »

Without completely separating the high/low frequencies via an active crossover the above does not apply.

In the bi-amplification section, the SDA-SRS 2.3 manual states: "The design of the SDA-SRS is such that no electronic crossover is required... The design of the SDA-SRS makes the use of an electronic crossover unnecessary...Although an electronic crossover is not necessary to bi-amp the SRS's, some small improvements in performance may be achieved by using one although only if set-up correctly."

I am assuming an active crossover the same as an electronic crossover?

F1nut wrote: »

Adjust the speaker level via the menu in your AVR.

I'm not talking about the center surround speaker, which is not enabled when I am listening to the SDAs in stereo. I mean, that when a stereo recording is played back on other speakers such as RTA12's the center image is strong and clear. On the SDAs, it seems that the center if muted and distant. I don't know if this is because I have the speakers too far apart, not far enough apart, or if my seat is too far or too close. I can't easily move the speakers around, so I would like some tips before I attempt to do that.

Thanks

motorstereo

Congrats on acquiring a great pair of speakers. I know what you're saying about the center imaging because I had the same problem with my 2.3s when I first got them. Disconnecting the sda cable would make my center image appear but of course that's not the proper fix. For me recapping and proper placement was the biggest help.

drumminman

Crashdot wrote: »

In the bi-amplification section, the SDA-SRS 2.3 manual states: "The design of the SDA-SRS is such that no electronic crossover is required... The design of the SDA-SRS makes the use of an electronic crossover unnecessary...Although an electronic crossover is not necessary to bi-amp the SRS's, some small improvements in performance may be achieved by using one although only if set-up correctly."

I am assuming an active crossover the same as an electronic crossover?

I'm not talking about the center surround speaker, which is not enabled when I am listening to the SDAs in stereo. I mean, that when a stereo recording is played back on other speakers such as RTA12's the center image is strong and clear. On the SDAs, it seems that the center if muted and distant. I don't know if this is because I have the speakers too far apart, not far enough apart, or if my seat is too far or too close. I can't easily move the speakers around, so I would like some tips before I attempt to do that.

Thanks

Check to see that the speaker cables are connected in phase, that is + amp terminal to + speaker terminal, - amp terminal etc.

Also, check your receiver speaker settings to be sure that's not causing issues. Not familiar with the Denon set up so I can't give specific advice. Should have a great center image like the RTA 12's but with a wider and deeper soundstage.

heiney9

Center image should be very strong so I would first experiment with placement a little bit, if they are too far apart in relation to your listening position that could be part of the cause.

Schurkey

F1nut wrote: »

Your AVR has only one power supply for all the channels, therefore it is incapable of bi-amping.

That's a bit extreme.

heiney9 wrote: »

Think of it this way, a 4 wheel drive truck in 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive still has the same horespower. HP doesn't magically increase just because you engage the other two wheels. Same with the AVR, the power output is limited by the power supply and in those receiver current limiting, no matter how many channels you have running.
H9

AVRs tend to be compromised devices, but there's nothing inherent in the concept that would prevent them from being a fine method of powering a pair--or many--speakers. The problem with AVRs tends to be in the implementation--not in the basic concept.

heiney9 wrote: »

You won't get 280 watts to each speaker by passive (ghetto) bi-amping. Electricity doesn't work that way at all. The thing you are missing is we have been there and experienced what you think you are trying to do, what you are thinking and what happens in reality aren't even close. Because you don't understand basic electrical current flow, etc.

H9

I don't accept this.

There are any number of multi-channel amplifiers that can provide full rated output with all channels driven. Sharing a common power supply does NOT have to limit the output of the amplifier modules IF (big IF) the power supply is robust enough.

Passive "ghetto" bi-amping may or may not "improve" the sonics, but it certainly will provide additional current to the speaker. The voltage will be limited by the rail voltage within the amplifier, but having additional output devices could allow higher current before overloading the transistors. Same voltage, more current available = more potential power delivered. Whether that's a benefit or not depends on many things, and at any rate I don't think it's going to affect the volume the speakers can achieve since the voltage delivered doesn't increase.