Best 2 Ch. Power Amp. To Power POLK Audio RTi A9's Under $1000.00 New & $500 Used.

Joe08867

Go ahead Jer.War its ok. Tell us what you think.

I am done trying to explain or help the lost cause that is Ravioli. He needs to do his on research. Until then he is a lost cause.

ravaneli

Tubes clip softer that SS and some musicians use them, but they use them to DISTORT the sound, not to hear what they recorded. You got it backwards, H9.

That is the whole reason people like tubes, i think, because they distort the music in a pleasant for them. And I am not saying everyone likes them - outside of this place there are plenty of experts who are open that tubes are a sham. People use them as equalizers, for the coloring they give to the music. The tube amps with the lowest distortion sound just like solid state.

See, the best any amplifier, solid or tube, can do, is to reproduce the recording EXACTLY as it was recorded. No amplifier can achieve perfect reproduction because we have distortion. Some solid state amps though come pretty darn close to perfect, with 0.01% max distortion through the entire range. This is already the best that an amp can do. Tubes cannot do any better, and they cannot even match that. What they do, however, is they attenuate some frequencies, and while the music no longer sound like the original thing, it is perceived as more pleasant to the owner. That's all there is.

Tube gear DISTORTS and COLORS. DISTORTS and COLORS. Try to get it. It is an ultra expensive equalizer. They have limited application and that is when the goal is distortion, not when the goal is monitoring. H9, tell me ONE tube reference amplifier! There is no reference monitoring tube gear, H9, and you know why? Because they all color! You must feel like a fool now, H9!

Drenis

Tubes clip softer that SS and some musicians use them, but they use them to DISTORT the sound, not to hear what they recorded.

How do you know that? Are you speaking for every artist? Perhaps you would like to provide some literature that supports your assumption.

That is the whole reason people like tubes, i think, because they distort the music in a pleasant for them.

People use them as equalizers, for the coloring they give to the music.

Again, more assumptions. You provide no proof or literature to support your claim. You assume.

See, the best any amplifier, solid or tube, can do, is to reproduce the recording EXACTLY as it was recorded.

Do you even know what an amplifier does? Or how it actually works? How about when you use different components with a design? Amplifiers do not "reproduce the recording EXACTLY as it was recorded".

Tube gear DISTORTS and COLORS. DISTORTS and COLORS. Try to get it. It is an ultra expensive equalizer.

Really? Well some people claim that MIT cables EQ's and colors the sound. So what's your point? Sounds like its your opinion based on... oh right, you have never heard tubes.

I really don't have the right to preach because I haven't even been here a year but I'm damn certain to do my research before opening my mouth about something. I make sure I get or try to acquire ALL the facts. Hate to tell ya man but everything I've learnt from some of the people who know their **** here have been right. Now I'm not so anal about trying new things and experiencing the differences between ALL types of gear whether it be solid state or tube power.

cstmar01

ravaneli wrote: »

That is the whole reason people like tubes, i think, because they distort the music in a pleasant for them. And I am not saying everyone likes them - outside of this place there are plenty of experts who are open that tubes are a sham. People use them as equalizers, for the coloring they give to the music. The tube amps with the lowest distortion sound just like solid state.

correct, you THINK you know, but really have nothing to back it up besides what you "read on the internet" about what other people think of tubes....

Also what reference tube amps have you tried and then compared against SS amps? what kind of SS amps did you use? did you also try SET amps?

See you claim that they sound the same because they measure the same, but never tell us what you listened to and used in a comparison. I'm glad to know I just read your opinion on something you never tried and then claimed no use in someone else doing it for themselves.

Gee, why should we ever live life outside of what someone says, everything is the same right?

That being said why do you even do this hobby? You claim the best amps also can be around .01%. I take it then you own one of these amps? Then I guess it must be a reference product and by that everything else must be compared.

See audio is about people who like to listen. You have proven you like to do otherwise. We do like to listen and enjoy the sound and tried to help the OP, you just want to rant and rave and prove you're right and we are all wrong. Go listen for awhile and do some comparison. I know you won't and claim you don't need to so then why even do this hobby?

heiney9

ravaneli wrote: »

Tubes clip softer that SS and some musicians use them, but they use them to DISTORT the sound, not to hear what they recorded. You got it backwards, H9.

That is the whole reason people like tubes, i think, because they distort the music in a pleasant for them. And I am not saying everyone likes them - outside of this place there are plenty of experts who are open that tubes are a sham. People use them as equalizers, for the coloring they give to the music. The tube amps with the lowest distortion sound just like solid state.

See, the best any amplifier, solid or tube, can do, is to reproduce the recording EXACTLY as it was recorded. No amplifier can achieve perfect reproduction because we have distortion. Some solid state amps though come pretty darn close to perfect, with 0.01% max distortion through the entire range. This is already the best that an amp can do. Tubes cannot do any better, and they cannot even match that. What they do, however, is they attenuate some frequencies, and while the music no longer sound like the original thing, it is perceived as more pleasant to the owner. That's all there is.

Tube gear DISTORTS and COLORS. DISTORTS and COLORS. Try to get it. It is an ultra expensive equalizer. They have limited application and that is when the goal is distortion, not when the goal is monitoring. H9, tell me ONE tube reference amplifier! There is no reference monitoring tube gear, H9, and you know why? Because they all color! You must feel like a fool now, H9!

You are a trip Rave-o-neli, a real trip. You don't even comprehend what people write. In the recording and live music world solid state is limited application. How you can say TUBES distort and then turn around and say it's OK for musicians and recording studios and engineers to master music with tube counsoles shows that you are just here to argue, not to rationally discuss anything.

The source of music is derived with tubes in the chain somehwere so you are just plain living in a fantasy world to think otherwise.

Buh, bye

H9

P.s. In essence what your logic is, is this; it's OK to create and record music using tubes (they distort and color the music) but it's NOT ok to playback said music using tubes...........that is simply retarted especially when you have rallied so hard against tubes and the distortion and coloring you think they impart. Wackiness!

Joe08867

Drenis in one year you have given more to this site than Ravioli has in 5 years. And you get it. You don't just blast off at the mouth, you look it up, you listen to different things and you form an educated opinion. It's exactly the way most of the real contributors to this site have done it themselves. They also call them Audiophiles.

I am in your camp, I am no expert but I do trust my ears. I have been in several bands that have done recordings in studios with both Analog and Digital formats. I will also say that the warmest and most accurate reproduction I have ever been a part of was done on a 8-track analog tape reel machine running through a tube powered mixing console. Pro Tools and all that are fine for some things but they loose something in the translation. But that is a different subject all together.

I also have been a lover of music my entire life, from Jazz and R&B to Rock and Heavy Metal and just about everything in between. I have owned many a fine piece of equipment and can tell you that the most accurate gear in the world still colors the sound. The only true sound is when you hear it in a personal setting and not from a PA. So it is directly from the artist to you.

The closest I have come to recreating that sound, feel and ambiance at home is through Tube gear. There is a reason they still build the stuff. I owned a Dared Preamp and a Dynaco Tube amp that were absolutely fantastic at bringing music to life. Making you feel as if your in the studio with the band. Let me know when that Behringer does that for you. I don't mean blow you ear drums loud sound but that 25watt Dynaco would put out enough juice to rock your world. It isn't the watts that make the difference it is how they are put to use. I wish I still had that setup. But being young and dumb I decided that the latest and greatest was also the best. Boy was I wrong. And that is also why I do not recommend Emo to anyone.

heiney9

I do question the facts, he has obviously made them up, embellished them or picked a really old school tube amp not built for hi-fi (think public PA system type).

H9

ravaneli

H9's signature: Tubes add soul!

The key there is 'add'. And damn right they do. We agree on the what is happening, heiney, just you call it soul and I call it with the technical name - distortion. Pa-pam!

heiney9

We don't agree on anything. Cheap solid state sucks the soul out of the music, tubes restore it. They add nothing except help reconstruct what cheap solid state has stripped away.

H9

txcoastal1

ravaneli wrote: »

at OP, the A9s will sound better with the amp that gives them the most power. EMO XPA 2 will probably sound better than all other suggestions, although the other amps have less distortion. The XPA 2 will give u extra headroom and dynamics that these speakers need.
I personally would buy a behringer europower 400 that can be had for 300 on the bay. 500W @ 8 ohm will juice these puppies like they deserve, and the sound was great to my ears (i tried it with my A7s). You just need to install a small potenciometer to regulate the fan on the back. costs $2 on the bay too.

Your gripe is that we stand by our gear because we have listened to lots of gear, and yes my is better than yours, just my opinion, and yes I have probably heard most of your gear. In your 2nd statement that "tubes are the biggest audio scam in the audio world" was not really your opinion it was based on others opinion. You telling people they need 300w of power for their 90db efficient speakers to sound better when they will not be able to listen more than 1min pushing 100watts or more is also false and misleading, especially when the OP's question was asking for "Something Warmish Sounding" which most replies until yours was leading him several opinions of warm gear including solid state....(because most those who answered have experienced that gear with the A9's.) The experience you obviously lack.

FTGV

ravaneli wrote: »

Tube gear DISTORTS and COLORS. DISTORTS and COLORS.

True to a great extent with simple single ended designs that can add a lot of even order harmonics,but that's equally true with MOSFET's if operated single ended.It's about the topology used whether it's push pull or single ended amongst other factors like amount of bias,feedback,output transformer quality etc.

F1nut

Just the fact that ravaoli thinks distortion is what makes or breaks the "sound" is proof enough that he has no clue.

heiney9

Here's a couple for you Ravi

This is one crappy integrated amp :rolleyes::twisted:

heiney9

Here's a couple for you Ravi

This is one crappy integrated amp :rolleyes::twisted:

cr136124

heiney9 wrote: »

Here's a couple for you Ravi

This is one crappy integrated amp :rolleyes::twisted:

Wow, can I have your crappy integrated amp............please?

LOL.

11tsteve

heiney9 wrote: »

Here's a couple for you Ravi

This is one crappy integrated amp :rolleyes::twisted:

so much for staying happy with my parasound... after my younger years of playing guitar through all-i-could-afford solid state practice amps, i can still remember how it was to buy my first all-tube Ampeg. i can only hope to experience that with my 2 channel system.

nooshinjohn

Damn Brock... that thing is a POS. why do you still listen to that boat anchor when you could get true solid state clarity with one of these? Everybody knows this is better than the distortion you have now:cheesygrin::razz:...

Geoff4rfc

ravaneli wrote: »

Humble, confidence-lacking souls like geoff would agree to whatever just to feel accepted by the crowd.

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. First of all, what did I agree too? That's what I thought, just more flatulence coming out of your mouth.

What I didn't do is make an absurd statement like tubes are the biggest scam in the audio world and, what did you say?, you like it because people that buy that crap get what they deserve. And then you later go on to say that you didn't say tubes were bad.

You're such a double talker, you don't even know the vile crap that you spew. I've said it to you before and I'll say it again "Your sense of style clearly exceeds 1st class standards, all while you're bobbing for apples in a back woods out house".

What I will agree with here is, you don't have anything substantial to back up your spew.

nooshinjohn

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

I actually laughed out loud when I read this. First of all, what did I agree too? That's what I thought, just more flatulence coming out of your mouth.

What I didn't do is make an absurd statement like tubes are the biggest scam in the audio world and, what did you say?, you like it because people that buy that crap get what they deserve. And then you later go on to say that you didn't say tubes were bad.

You're such a double talker, you don't even know the vile crap that you spew. I've said it to you before and I'll say it again "Your sense of style clearly exceeds 1st class standards, all while you're bobbing for apples in a back woods out house".

What I will agree with here is, you don't have anything substantial to back up your spew.

See that Ravioli... wrong again!

Humble, confidence-lacking souls like geoff would agree to whatever just to feel accepted by the crowd.

Geoff has more confidence in his pinkie finger than you have in your entire being. Time to go cry in your blankie and suck your thumb.

leroyjr1

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Vinyl is a black hole that is worth every penny, and it is a myth that you need to break the bank to enjoy it. My turntable and cartridge did set me back a grand, and I must have close to 2500 in vinyl by now, but a good sacd player will set you back a grand and most of the thousand lp's I got I would have never spent 15 bucks apiece for to get them on CD to begin with. Add to that, the thrill of the hunt in finding top-shelf condition LP's and I must admit that putting it all together was a hell of a lot of fun.:cheesygrin:

I own maybe 75 cd's, as I was never a huge convert to the format. When I began to assemble my setup, I determined that I could buy 10 LP's for the price of buying a single used cd, and that was a major factor in pushing me towards the black. I am glad I made that choice.

But you are limited to what's available out there. I can pretty much find any cd I want.

nooshinjohn

I have had no trouble finding what I want, and for the stuff I can't, I stream it from Pandora. :cool:

Dawgfish

If I were going solid state, a B&K Reference 200.2, ST-202+, or Sonata would be my first choice. Love that B&K warm sound. Of course my personnal choice would be to go with tube or tube/solid state hybrid amps like the Anthem Amp1 and Amp2 or any of the other solid choices out there. It turns out I like amps with a lot of distortion I guess.

ravaneli

the reason tubes are scam is because they are sold for something that they are not - superior to solid state. That they are not. If you do even a half as$ apples to apples comparison, a high end solid state will absolutely destroy a high end tube on every objective, predefined metric. Note that the metric cannot be how it sounds to old heiney, who gets an erection just thinking about tube, unless it's a blind test. You have to define the goal as either true reproduction (A) or some particular predefined audio signature like 'warm' (B). In case of B the exact spec of the signature should be given beforehand.

Whatever your goal is, companies like Boulder, Krell, Mcintosh will make you a solid state that will CRUSH your best tube at half the cost, with superior power, current, headroom and whatnot. These SS amps above have zero audio signature, AND THATS WHY THEY ARE SO GOOD! They add no 'soul' or 'warmth'. You have equalizers for that.

ravaneli

Look, if people understood that tubes are really inferior technology and the price of tubes was reasonable I would have no grudge with them. They are very inefficient and unreliable compared to SS, they are constantly out of spec, you need to buy tubes all the time, and manufacturer spec doesn't mean much because performance of the amp changes constantly. And to get all that you pay an arm and a leg. And to add insult to injury, some fool comes and tells you that his silly chinese tube amp is better than your absolutely flawless Boulder that makes nothing but Rembrand quality pictures from these bench test graphs.

Dawgfish

^^I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that^^. I've had some pretty nice solid state gear in the past and all things be equal, I much prefer the sound of tube gear. That is my preference though and of course we all have our own idea of what sounds good. I cannot tell you what sounds good to you just you cannot tell me what really sounds good to me. Everybody's ears and listening environment are different. Having said that I've had a lot of solid state and tube gear gear that retailed for about the same price and in every instance I prefered the tube gear. Again that is my personal preference.

Newer technology doesn't necesarily mean better. Sure the technology is newer in most solid state gear but doesn't mean it will sound better. Have you ever heard the saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it"? I get this a lot in one of my profesions as a fly fishing guide. Every year the fly rod manufacturers (Sage is the worst at this IMO) come out with some wizz-bang, end-all, be-all fly rod that is going to revolutionize the fly fishing world. They have all of these amazing specs and they sure can cast a mile in the parking lot, but in the real fishing world they just don't have the "feel" and can handle real situations in the water that many of the classics can. I see this same equivalent in the audio world. An amp can have the best specs in the world but that doesn't guarentee at all that it will sound good.

I'm not trying to knock you, I'm just saying if you've never tried out quality tube gear for yourself in your system and compared it to solid state, you don't have a real basis for comparing the two. I have tried both and compared the two and I'm not saying that to be judgeful and "hollier than thou", I'm just saying that I have actually compared the two for myself and there's no comparison for my tastes. I'll take the tubes. Try it out sand see for yourself and if you still prefer solidstate gear than that's cool. That's your preference, but at least have the expereince of having acutually tried both of these before making an opinion and telling everyone what is the gospel.

Joe08867

So tubes are inefficient. Is that why the 25 watt Dynaco was louder and cleaner than the 125watt B&K I have. Yeah that is inefficient.

And they are not inferior. I would love to hear a 50 year old SS amp sound anything like a 50 yr old Tube. Not gonna happen. The problem with people like you is you just won't listen to anyone. You read something off a site that bashed tube gear cause they didn't understand it and now you think it is the gospel according to ravioli. It just isn't true. True sound is best through tubes. Are there SS amps and gear out there that is great? Yes but for the coin my money would go Tubes all day everyday and twice on Sunday.

You need to listen to your ears and stop listening to your eyes.

And by the way, did you look at the link F1 placed? No you probably didn't. Where is the distortion in that amp?

Get your learn on before you try to dispute the quality and sound of Tubes. Your ears will thank you..

cstmar01

ravaneli wrote: »

the reason tubes are scam is because they are sold for something that they are not - superior to solid state. That they are not. If you do even a half as$ apples to apples comparison, a high end solid state will absolutely destroy a high end tube on every objective, predefined metric. Note that the metric cannot be how it sounds to old heiney, who gets an erection just thinking about tube, unless it's a blind test. You have to define the goal as either true reproduction (A) or some particular predefined audio signature like 'warm' (B). In case of B the exact spec of the signature should be given beforehand.

Whatever your goal is, companies like Boulder, Krell, Mcintosh will make you a solid state that will CRUSH your best tube at half the cost, with superior power, current, headroom and whatnot. These SS amps above have zero audio signature, AND THATS WHY THEY ARE SO GOOD! They add no 'soul' or 'warmth'. You have equalizers for that.

have you ever, ever, ever listen to these? Seriously?

If Mac SS amps are so good then why do they also make tube?

And please once again share your comparisons. I want to know what your reference amps are and what tube amps you did your "comparison" to. And no I don't want to know what spec sheet you read because that does not count.

I find it funny as Krell and Mac have two totally different sounds, but thats OK just keep going off like you know it all.

heiney9

Come on people let's not indulge the idiot. He (ravaneli) is either delusional or just posting dreck to try and be contraversial. He has no experience with anything mentioned in his posts. And to really show his idiocy he advocates using an equalizer and that being less detrimental than tubes (his words, not mine).

All components add their signature, end of story! There is no piece of gear in the chain that is perfectly neutral, linear and/or distortion free. Only an incompetent fool would even think that.

H9

cstmar01

ravaneli wrote: »

Look, if people understood that tubes are really inferior technology and the price of tubes was reasonable I would have no grudge with them. They are very inefficient and unreliable compared to SS, they are constantly out of spec, you need to buy tubes all the time, and manufacturer spec doesn't mean much because performance of the amp changes constantly. And to get all that you pay an arm and a leg. And to add insult to injury, some fool comes and tells you that his silly chinese tube amp is better than your absolutely flawless Boulder that makes nothing but Rembrand quality pictures from these bench test graphs.

Can you prove anything you just posted.

Lets see, every day I used my new VTL amps I looked at their bias which could change due to the line they are one (I also live in an apartment so you think it would go nuts)

Guess what. They always measured to what they should be in. No changes. Also tubes don't have to cost and arm and a leg. My amps push out 550 watts but I guess that inefficient. Oh and really there was never a change in my bill for eletric even though I am listening more than when I had my SS amp. Hmm.

oh and I haven't had to buy tubes yet for my pre or amps. I've had the pre for 6 months and the amps for about 4. Guess I need to replace everything because you say so.

txcoastal1

FYI Rav----We had the LSiM 705 demo room set up at the Lone Star Audio Fest with a 12watt single ended tube integrated we never turned up passed 50%---the set-up rivaled most of the rooms including the Legacy room which was all solid state gear

Trust me and the others 99% of your statements lack the knowledge, and by the way your original posts about the Emo and Behringer are in total conflict with you statements "Boulder, Krell, Mcintosh" because they are not in the same class. Boulder amps start at 15K to 30K and there are a ton of great tube amps half the cost (not twice the costs)

Why don't you just hang out at the Emo forum with your superior Emo gear...don't get me wrong emo has a market class and I'm glad they are there to provide the value, but don't make the claims you boast without listening to other gear.