newbie asks "how did I do?"

jacal

I'd like to outline my new system, setup and ask a few questions. I would appreciate any and all feedback on where weak spots are in the system and what people think of this as a nice mid level system. Most important uses are: playing quality cds in stereo mode, home theater, tv sound, vcr (sounds horrid).

The components are:
R50s
CS3
R20s
PSW202

Driven by:
Panasonic HE-75 (all settings to 0 for bal, bass, treb; distance settings to speakers set appropriately and all speakers are small, except 'large' for the fronts and sub=yes)
http://www.panasonic.ca/English/audiovideo/audio/hometheatre/sahe75.asp

Some setup photos:http://groups.msn.com/BicyclingForumPicPost/jacalsspot.msnw?Page=1

Other equipment:
Toshiba 36" hdtv
Toshiba progressive scan dvd (monster optical cable out for sound) composite video to tv.
Some distances: all from "central seating" position:
10 ft to fronts
10.5 ft to center
12 ft to sub
6 ft to surrounds
right now about 5-6 feet between the two fronts. they are currently 16" from the back wall and 24 from the side.

Questions:
1) with R50s should I still bi-wire to the sub or would the sub out jack be fine? I'm currently using the sub out with a y-splitter (all monster cable)

2) the receiver is probably the weakest link (true or false?)...would getting a more expensive receiver give a serious quality improvement?

3) notice all the open space in the room due to design. Is the sub I choose way to underpowered for that kind of open space? I do not use the sub for cd playback, only to add effect to movies. The sub has made an awful "pop" sound a couple times during die another day, and once during matrix re-loaded. I turned down it's volume control below mid just in case.


I feel the sound just isn't as 'bright' and 'out there' as I'd like it to be when playing cds in plain stereo mode. It's good to be sure, but not quite what I have heard from other systems. Is this more a function of the receiver or do I perhaps not like the "sound style" of polk speakers? I originally had the R30s, but they didn't suit my tastes at all. I hoped the R50s would solve the problem.
Also, I feel the left hand side is being a bit muted by that really long couch, should that be repositioned?

Any suggestions or comments are welcome.


J

steveinaz

Originally posted by jacal
Questions:
1) with R50s should I still bi-wire to the sub or would the sub out jack be fine? I'm currently using the sub out with a y-splitter (all monster cable)

2) the receiver is probably the weakest link (true or false?)...would getting a more expensive receiver give a serious quality improvement?

3) notice all the open space in the room due to design. Is the sub I choose way to underpowered for that kind of open space?

I feel the sound just isn't as 'bright' and 'out there' as I'd like it to be when playing cds in plain stereo mode.

J

1) Thats a HT question best answered by someone more familiar with HT.

2) You'll almost always get more slam/better quality out of seperates--but I think your receiver is fine.

3) Depends on how much emphasis on bass you're adding. I hate to sound "cliche" but in subs--bigger is usually (but not always) better.

It may be because of the close furniture issue regarding what you describe as a lack of brightness (soundstage?). The couch should definitely be moved back some. But I'm leaning towards the fact that you're running your treble "flat." You can get away with this with higher quality equipment and not lose your "aireyness" in the treble--but on less expensive equipment, your speakers can begin to sound "Veiled." No offense intended on your choice of components, I just think you might try adjusting your treble at the 1:00 position (+2 or 3dB gain)--and see what you think. Also try removing your grills when listening to 2-channel audio, it makes a difference. It looks like you've got the room to move each speaker about 8-10" wider--try it, with about one inch of toe-in. Elevating may help as well, its a pretty well "insulated" room from what I can tell--per "LiquidSounds" advice to another poster, try using the 16x16 paving pads available for next to nothing at you local hardware to set the speakers on.

Remember to make your "evaluations" with a known well-recorded CD. Badly engineered CD's can make the best of equipment sound horrid.

What are you using for speaker/interconnect cables?

BeginnersLuck

Hello-

First off, using the sub out on the receiver is fine, I would leave it how it is. You can expeiment with bi-wiring, that is up to you. Unfortunately, your receiver is your weakest link right now and there are much better options out there. Your receiver is a panasonic class H amp. Their class H designs have varrying frequency responses based on the volume level, in other words, the charateristics of the amp change as the volume changes. The sweet spots on the amp are about at 2/3 power. I don't think the receiver can truely deliver the 100W/channel. The class H design also takes a hit in the THD or overall distortion of the sound quality.

Second, I have heard a couple of panasonics class H designs and I think they sound horrible. In fact my dad has one, but he enjoys it for what it does (amplifies and decodes) and is not interested in how good it sounds. I personally think they sound aweful, but then again, at the right volume, it sounds OK.

Third, I think the reason the your sound stage sucks is because of your receiver. It does not image very well, esp. in a large room.

Polk makes great speakers, but they need a good power plant to make them sound their best. A receiver is the heart of any stereo/HT setup, so I would start with that. Unil then, the system will work, just not to its best ability.

So save those pennies...

-BL

danger boy

Like the other guys said.. it appears that your receiver might be to blame for the inadaquit sound you are hearing. If you're low on funds but want to move up to something better.. i suggest you check out used receivers from Marantz. I have the Marantz SR5000 it's about 3 yrs old now. but can be had on ebay for under $200 usually. Stepping up to that will give you high current power, plus the usual features or DD, DTS, pre outs, 5.1 inputs, etc.

I'm curious why you don't have you DVD player hooked up to your Toshiba 36" using S-video or component. Composite that you are using right now.. is the worst of the three hook up options. Just a thought there.

good luck, Al

jacal

Thanks for the feedback.

It confirms a few things and gives me a few others to think about.

1) oops! I meant to say component connection from the tv to the dvd, so it is the best connection possible. The speakers are all connected with monster thx cable.

2) I will move the speakers further apart again, and try the minor toe-in. I will do my best to re-arrange and move that red couch further away. I was trying to not have them equal distance from both rear and side walls. I will add some treble on the receiver setup.

3) I guess I really really need to consider a better receiver. I didn't want to blame any one part of the system until I was a little more sure, but I just know that something isn't quite right and you people are confirming that I might be picking up on the shortcommings of that receiver.

I'm still well within my 30 day time limit for trying this equipment out. I think I should first try a better receiver, and if that doesn't work maybe just put-off my sound system another couple years until I can take a step up.


J

dorokusai

1) I prefer this method of sub hookup, because of mess all that speaker wire causes. I am not in the camp that wire is wire, but that is irrelevant. Your wires are fine, worry about other stuff.

2)True, the receiver looks like it could use some help in the amplifier department. Beginners Luck seems to have some knowledge of that brand, so go with the groups suggestion. Look for another one, upgrade. There are a couple in the Flea Market for sale, if I recall. A Denon 3803 and a Onkyo SR700(?), check in there.

3) That PSW202 is a underperformer, but it does ok. I have 1 also. Steve suggests a good point. I tweaked my 202 as much as I could, and it helps. Spikes and Granite Top and Bottom helped a bunch. Concrete pavers are fine, that is also a good idea. I used Granite because it was free. The 202 is not a sub that can handle the volume maxed, while playing a heavy bass tracked movie. Its just not ready for that kind of slam. The two movies you mentioned are but a couple that will bottom out the driver. That is probably what you heard.

I can't even begin to tell you how to arrange that space, thats on you. www.dolby.com has some pictures and diagrams that mat help you with that.

Good luck, update us on what you decide.

steveinaz

IMO, if you want to use a sub-woofer in your setup, either get a very powerful/high quality one, or dedicate a powerful amp for the sub duties. Low frequency information eats power by the hand fulls and requires at least 150 watts/rms to reproduce faithfully, without strain.

If I were an "HT Nut" I wouldn't run a sub. There are plenty of main front speakers capable of reproducing realistic quality bass--but that's strictly my opinion. I go the cheap route and simply run my DVD through my stereo preamp, and I'm quite amazed at the levels of bass achieved already.

reeltrouble1

jacal,

Welcome to the forum, you are about to step off into the chasim of HT. There are many here who will help, some have different opinions on gear but all love the reproduction of sound. Remember that it always comes down to how does it sound to you. For lots of info use the search engine on this site, just pick the topic you want to know about and get your read on.

I would say use your sub out, it is fine, I have also wired subs through the speaker level connections, in any event you will need to set your crossover. Your sub is a very hard worker for HT. So start somewhere around 120 or so and adjust to what sounds best. I think your panny has an adjustable crossover on the reciever also.

As far as how to get what, to you sounds best, well I recommend you go down to Radio Shack and get an analog sound level meter to balance your system, this is going to make a big difference. If you want to learn more you might read the prior posts here (DR. Spec has a few good ones on this as well as others but he comes to mind off the top of my head). You can also buy DVD discs that explain everything and guide you through the process. I like the Avia disc you can get it at CC and BB but definetly get the sound meter you need it. If you do not get a disc you can use the test tones from the receiver to balance each speaker individually with the meter.

Yes, your receiver is an entry level model, but I do not see why you need a new one right now unless you have the bucks, play with what you have, listen to it, but sure there are many many better receivers, we all start somewhere.

Upgrade itis is just around the corner, my advice is to read all you can about each component of the system and just listen to your music and HT, afterall, thats what it is really all about. My guess is if this hobby gets it grip on you and you take the plunge ( I suspect you will) you will come to a point when you will want different pieces of equipment. Only you can say when or if the point is ever reached.

Polk makes very fine speakers at affordable prices, the ones you have are ok, it is all what the budget allows for.

Again welcome to the forum.

jacal

Well I went out and picked up a Yamaha htr 5660, if for no other reason then to be able to compare an entry level receiver to a mid end one.

HOLY COW! I'm just stunned at the difference. From a system I was virtually ready to return, to a system with the 'wow' factor. Normally reserved for my pals who spent $1000-$1500 more then I did.

And all this w/o configuring the 5660. I now know what an impact a good receiver can have. Sound is effortless, the imaging excellent and even the sub sounds better!? I'm quite happy now, I think I'll keep it! Cd's in pure stereo mode are wonderful, and tv sound is very much improved.

I will say that the panasonic certainly had the price right for a starter system and did a reasonably good job of HT.
I would have been ok keeping the panasonic if I knew conclusively that the speakers would be way better down the road with a new receiver, but I really wasn't sure. Now that I know, I just can't go back!


J

Early B.

Glad to hear you took most people's adivce on this thread and upgraded your receiver. It's always good to hear that someone's upgrade has made a drastic difference in their listening experience.

You certainly can't go wrong with a Yamaha receiver. Good choice.
With the setup you currently have, you can forget about upgrading for a while. Just sit back in your easy chair and enjoy your gear.

Tour2ma

jacal,

Welcome...

I think the best thing you have going for you is that installation at the rear of your "mancave". It'll go far towards breaking up standing waves, but it's performance is very sensitive to the level of liquid in any bottles in storage.

I'd be happy to come over and help you tweek it sometime...