Will a Pioneer VSX-821-K Handle one set of Monitor 60's or 70's ok? here is my setup.

Lietuvis91

John K. wrote: »

Skeeter, some of the replies indicate a misunderstanding about the power requirements of the Monitor series. They are all slightly above average in sensitivity, and as is often the case with speakers, the "big boys"(e.g., 60 and 70)are a bit more efficient than the smaller ones(e.g., 40)and require slightly less power. Specifically here, the 40 shows an output of 89dB(quite loud)for 1 watt of input, while both the 60 and 70 are spec'd at 90dB for 1 watt. Unless Polk is lying(and that's certainly not the case), you can use either the 60s or 70s with confidence that your 821 will do at least as well with them as it now does with your 40s.

So, the answer to the question in your thread title is yes, and this isn't a mere personal opinion, but simply applying the facts about the sensitivities of the Monitor speakers.

Oh my... not another one of those speaker "sensitivity" arguments...
Are you seriously suggesting that an m70 with four 6.5 inch drivers rated at 275w is easier to drive than an m40 with two 5.25 drivers rated at 150?! C'mon...That's pushing against the concept of nonsense... And if you had actually done this comparison, you would know...sensitivity has everything to do with volume of sound, and nothing to do with quality. Quality comes from actual control of the speaker which requires power. Will 1 watt produce more volume from four 6.5in drivers than two 5.25in drivers?! Sure! However, I wish you luck enjoying that...

To the OP: Ravaneli put it perfectly, you have a receiver designed to drive bookshelves, and if you truly want competent sound, bookshelves is what you should go with. Which ones, is up to you. My choice in your case would be m30s for surrounds, because they come with mounting holes.

Skeeterdamus

Oh, I already have a cool custom built shelfs by the fireplace where I can sit some monitor 40's

(The last month ive been prepping my house, and slowly buying all the gear Just ran some 12 gauge wires for the rears to the shelfs to fit my bookshelfs since in the begining I was gonna use the current monitor40's as my surrounds when I got new fronts, but if I should get another pair of monitor 40's that would make life easier If they will be powered sweetly. So far just the 3.1 is pretty darn loud for my small basement.)


I mean, If I REALLY have too, I'll get some monitor30's.

But if anything, Would my reciever handle one more set of monitor 40's without a hitch? And play at its prime?

Right now I have, the CS2, Monitor40, that reciever, and a 12 inch pulk sub.


One guy said If I use all 5 channels I loose power, so will this reciever be able to handle my cs2, and 4x Monitor 40's without a problem? The reciever maxes out at 80 volume, I hardly ever go past 55, as that disturbs others in the house past that.

tonyb

You'll be fine with the 4 M40's and cs2. Enjoy

Lietuvis91

There is something very nice about having the same speakers all the way around. Whatever crossover point you choose will affect all speakers the same, which, in surround mode, will make for seemless transitions speaker-to-speaker throughout the room, without any tonal changes. This helps individual speakers "disapear" and makes for a much more blended, smoother flowing overall sound, which is what you want in a well put together system .

Go with m40s.

Skeeterdamus

Ok, since ive finally got all my gear my next question is what to set the
crossover network frequency to on the reciever.

These are the options it gives, right now I have it at 100, Large speaker setting And yes, I have a subwoofer. It doesnt have individual settings just one crossover option called crossover network frequency.

50 80 100 150 200

Also, It gives me the option to set the speakers to Small, and Large. (Right now I use Large) - MCAA caliboration set that for me.


the speakers im using are: Monitor40's x4. Fronts, and rears. And a CS2 as the center. PSW12 for the sub. (This baby packs a vicious punch) Reminds me of my JL audio car days when I was younger!

chumlie

Set the speakers to small, crossover at 80 and rerun the MCAA.

EndersShadow

I would set your speakers to "Small", put the crossover for your fronts at 80hz, the rears at 100 and center at 80 as well. Your sub I would put at 90 and call it a day.

Normally the standard is 80 all the way around but I found surrounds crossed a bit higher sounds better to me. With the new speakers I will be getting that will probably be changing in a drastic way lol......

ravaneli

I would set them to small and use 80 for XO.
I would also go through the settings and turn of any EQ or other processing.
Also, if you hear hiss from the tweeters when nothing is playing your channel level is too high (had that problem with 521)

Skeeterdamus

EndersShadow wrote: »

I would set your speakers to "Small", put the crossover for your fronts at 80hz, the rears at 100 and center at 80 as well. Your sub I would put at 90 and call it a day.

Normally the standard is 80 all the way around but I found surrounds crossed a bit higher sounds better to me. With the new speakers I will be getting that will probably be changing in a drastic way lol......

Heres something I also noticed. When I had the reciever when I first got it, it was set at 150 crossover, the speakers sounded like TV speakers, with no umpth, almost made me sad I spent money on the speakers at first till I changed it to 100


Yeah sadly, Only one crossover option exists for all speakers.

50-80-100-150-200


Really? I find the EQ to sound decent when turned on :O, but then again im used to my horrific speakers my TV used for 5 years.


Yeah, I run the MCAA with the mic sitting on the couch, and it auto sets my speakers to large for some odd reason. I guess they are "large" compared to 2-3" satellites though.


also just got my 12 gauge wire today from monoprice, and man. that Is some Spine chilling thick cable, Almost looks like im trying to power a car with it.

EndersShadow

Skeeterdamus wrote: »

Yeah sadly, Only one crossover option exists for all speakers.

50-80-100-150-200

Use 80 then. Its the THX standard setting for most movies anyway. You should be more than ok there.

Skeeterdamus wrote: »

Also just got my 12 gauge wire today from monoprice, and man. that Is some Spine chilling thick cable, Almost looks like im trying to power a car with it.

LOL... I used to think 12 guage was thick..... then I got in the Demo MIT Shotgun 3.3 speaker cables lol... they are GARDEN HOSE thick.....

chumlie

Well, how's it sound ?

Skeeterdamus

Laugh 3.3? are you kidding me? Yeah, I used to run 0 Gauge in my car that had 2 500/1 jls and 2 w6v2 as POWER Wire only and 4 Gauge as speaker wire I cant believe you have wire almost that thick, how the hell do you even connect that to a home reciever/amp? I mean my JL amps had HUGE **** speaker terminals, but jeez :P


Now we know why your neighborhood has blackouts

Lietuvis91

The crossover should be the same for all speakers in this setup, whatever it is. Sometimes it helps to bump up the center higher for additional clarity, but this often depends on the recording.

EndersShadow

Skeeterdamus wrote: »

Laugh 3.3? are you kidding me? Yeah, I used to run 0 Gauge in my car that had 2 500/1 jls and 2 w6v2 as POWER Wire only and 4 Gauge as speaker wire I cant believe you have wire almost that thick, how the hell do you even connect that to a home reciever/amp? I mean my JL amps had HUGE **** speaker terminals, but jeez :P


Now we know why your neighborhood has blackouts

The 3.3 is the model number of the speaker cable, not its guage. I kid you not when I say garden hose thick...... I am VERY familiar with car audio and they are bigger than a 0 guage powercable.

jjc0001

Skeeter / All,

This is my first post to this forum. I've just purchased a similar "beginning" Polk setup:

Pioneer VSX-821K
Polk Monitor70s II (2)
Polk CS2 II
Polk PSW505

Everything will be shipped to me by tomorrow. I was hoping you could share any insights or tips that you've learned while putting you setup together (receiver settings / the MCAA auto-calibration sufficient?). As of now, I only have two questions:

1) From the sub-woofer line-out on the receiver, which input on the PSW505 do you use?
2) Is the VSX-821K capable of bi-amping? Is there anyway to use the surround outputs from the receiver for this purpose?

I appreciate anyone's help in advance!
Thanks!

ravaneli

Greetings! Those components have great quality for their price. You will love them. I will bet you a dollar that it won't be a month before you buy a pair of M40s as well.
1. LFE in
2. you can't biamp with that receiver, but you can biwire. Benefits will be hard to detect though.

My tips: after you get familiar with the settings check the channel level and don't keep it more than -6. I had the same amp and it starts to hiss and distort with the channel level high. Also you have tower that can soak up a lot of power, more than your receiver can provide. Not to say they won't play good with it, but if you push the volume too high they will lose dynamics and distort. If you add surround speakers too, the avr will be loaded pretty well. In that situation I would set the crossover higher than what the speakers can do, only because they are passive, and your sub is powered (and pretty good too). The low frequencies soak most of the power, so in your case it will be better if you route them to the subwoofer instead of the speakers, to save some headroom in the receiver.

jjc0001

Wow! Thanks for the quick response!

1) OK. Thanks
2) That's what I thought

I have some follow up questions to your much appreciated response:

1) What exactly is the "channel level"? What would "-6" mean?
2) I understand that since I'm under-powering my speakers, I need to avoid high-volumes where the clipping can damage my tweeters. Since you've had this receiver, would listening at around 40-55 be OK? I decided to accept this issue with the entry level receiver. I'm hoping to upgrade when timing and $ is right.
3) For now, I won't have the surround speakers. But I'm sure I'll be itching to soon!
4) Lastly, can you please explain: "...in your case it will be better if you route them to the subwoofer instead of the speakers, to save some headroom in the receiver." I'm assuming you mean to route my monitor70s through my sub-woofer. Can you quickly explain how this is done and how this is saving headroom in my receiver?

Much Thanks!

Geoff4rfc

jjc0001 wrote: »

1) What exactly is the "channel level"? What would "-6" mean?
2) I understand that since I'm under-powering my speakers, I need to avoid high-volumes where the clipping can damage my tweeters. Since you've had this receiver, would listening at around 40-55 be OK? I decided to accept this issue with the entry level receiver. I'm hoping to upgrade when timing and $ is right.
3) For now, I won't have the surround speakers. But I'm sure I'll be itching to soon!
4) Lastly, can you please explain: "...in your case it will be better if you route them to the subwoofer instead of the speakers, to save some headroom in the receiver." I'm assuming you mean to route my monitor70s through my sub-woofer. Can you quickly explain how this is done and how this is saving headroom in my receiver?

Much Thanks!

Hook everything as normal. Set your mains and center to small, let the sub carry the LFE.

If 0 is reference, normal listening in my set up is between -45 to -25. If I go lower say, -17 or -15, that's pretty stinking loud for a movie. -12to -10 is pretty loud for music in two channel.

I have external amps so I can push those loud volumes, with just your AVR, I'd not. Try keeping it around -45 to -35 or a tad lower. If you can add am amp through preouts on your receiver, guessing it has them, you can push some power through those M70's and like it.

Good luck

ravaneli

Also it's a good idea to read your manual. Don't want to be lame, but sometimes it's a better friend than third party advice.
If you set the channel level to - 6 or even lower, then you can go all the way up on the volume knob without damaging anything. Up to 60 the sound is pretty clean to my ears, but after that you will hear that it doesn't sound right and you are not going to push it higher anyway.

As for the last part.. the crossover feature in your amp determines a cutoff point in the frequency range. All frequencies higher than that point go to your speakers; lower than that point go to the subwoofer. You can chose that cutoff point knowing the tradeoffs. The range from 60hz to 150 hz can be routed to either the speakers or the sub. You have good speakers that can go pretty low, and if they were well powered I would recommend using 60 or 50 for crossover. But since you won't have that much power, you would probably get better results setting it to 100. See, the lower the frequency, the more power it is required to produce it. You have plenty of power available at your subwoofer, which also has a bigger driver and your sub can play those low frequencies without breaking a sweat. Then the power that you save by not playing these low frequencies through the speakers is available for the rest of the frequency range for sudden bursts power demand.

tonyb

Rav,
The second part of your response is good, but the first part, I dunno man. When you set the channel level to minus, you are in essense taking away power to that channel, limiting it in other words. In that scenario, the receivers amps have to work even harder to reach a certain volume. Who wants to do that ? Mind you it's usefull for balancing out the sound in a given room, placement and all that, but it should not be used as a means to turn the volume all the way up as you so put it. Just saying is all.

jjc0001

I'm clear on everything besides the channel level now

When calibrating with the AVR, the channel level starts at 0dB. I understand ravaneli's thought of decreasing the channel level to -6dB so that you have more range on the volume knob. But tonyb's explanation of how this will stress the avr amps makes sense also

Can someone explain the point of channel leveling? With my current understanding, the only benefit I see is having the center channel a little bit higher than my fronts, to have cleaner vocals; but other than that, I'm not sure why I shouldn't be keeping the channel level at 0dB on my avr

Also, from Geoff4rfc: "If 0 is reference, normal listening in my set up is between -45 to -25. If I go lower say, -17 or -15, that's pretty stinking loud for a movie. -12to -10 is pretty loud for music in two channel. "

I don't understand this. Is the 0 reference referring to the channel level or my volume knob? As the channel level down, so does the volume...can someone clear this up for me too?

Thanks guys!

tonyb

Reference level is more so a given SPL, or volume, in a given room and will vary obviously. 0 on your volume dial many would consider reference level, even though thats not necessarily the case. Channel levels, are used to balance out the sound in a given room. For instance, your left speaker may be 2 feet wider from center than the right speaker. You would then cut the channel level on the right speaker or up the channel level on the left so that the sound from both speakers reaches your sitting position at the same time. Follow ? Same goes for surround speakers, it's usually the case given different home environments that all speakers are not the exact same distance to your sitting position. Plus some may want a more profound surround effect, thus raising the surround channel levels or some usually bump up the level to a sub or a center speaker that may be weak. It's a means of adjustment, nothing more, nothing less.

You would probably need a SPL meter to acurately distinguish the reference level in your room, but seriously, don't sweat it. Means nothing really. If your ears tell you it's loud enough, your probably close to reference level anyway. Oh btw, welcome to the club, in case nobody told you, we are pretty darn good at spending other peoples money, so put that padlock on your wallet pronto.:cheesygrin:

cnh

Welcome to Club Polk!

Agreed, if you're having trouble balancing and calibrating the center, an SPL meter will solve that in minutes. I always double check my settings with one.

I run a 3.1 system in my basement with an old Pioneer similar to yours (probably an honest 55 watts x 5 in surround mode--though Pioneer rates it at 100 W x 5. Have a pair of Boston A. A100s a Polk CSi 3 and a 12" Polk sub). The A100s put out pretty big sound from the Pioneer (but the sound is not as "clean" as it could be). My volume control runs from -94- 0. I usually run movies from 35-25 and things are pretty loud. This is a secondary system I use when I just want to hide out downstairs.

You'd be OK running that system if you don't push it. But like the A100s, the M-70s sound better with more and better amplification.

Have fun!

cnh

ravaneli

his volume control is not in db. It is just numbers from 0-80. His channel level is from -15 to .. not sure.

I know because I had the same amp. OK, when the CH L is 0db, go near the tweeters. Can you hear them hissing? I bet you will. Also, if you do critical listening they sound a little harsh. Set the highest CH L to - 6 db and the hissing will disapear almost completely. That channel level on that particular amp works like gain. I don't know if it's gain indeed. And you don't care anyway. Even with Ch L to -10, your speakers will be pretty loud at 60 volume.

I did some tests with my Marantz a couple of weeks ago.. Maximum volume on CH L 0 db was like 300W power consumption. Max volume on +10 CH L was over 500W power consumption (with two towers running only). From that test I concluded that the receiver is actually under less load with lower channel level.

I will admit early that I am not sure what the hell channel level is, unless it is gain, but I doubt it will have separate gain for every channel. Just sharing my empirical experience.

If you hear no hissing with high channel level, and the speakers don't sound harsh to you - then no reason to keep it low. But I had the same one, and had that problem, and that's what solved the problem. That's really all I have about this.