Listening fatigue, need external amp?

brianedm

I've just done a revamp of my home theater system and am having a problem I've never had before. When i'm watching movies I get some pretty bad listening fatigue. I know my new tower speakers are pretty power hungry and I upgraded my AVR, but I get the feeling it's not enough. It sounds fine to me, besides the fatigue. no amp clipping or anything like that. I usually only have the volume around -30 on my reciever, so it's not like I'm blasting it at full volume. my current setup is...


AVR: Denon avr-3312 ci
Fronts: Polk Rti a7
Center: Polk Csi a6
Rears: Polk Rti a1

Any ideas?

chumlie

Try a good 2 or 3 channel amp for your front, I'm running basicly the same setup. I bought a Parasound hca1500a. Big differance in front stage.

steveinaz

Rti's have considerable treble energy; I assume you use no bass/treble correct?

Are they toed-in? How much?

Grills on when listening?

How far do you sit from the mains?

Is your room carpeted?

brianedm

I just ran audyssey auto set up, haven't made any other adjustments.

brianedm

steveinaz wrote: »

Rti's have considerable treble energy; I assume you use no bass/treble correct?

Are they toed-in? How much?

Grills on when listening?

How far do you sit from the mains?

Is your room carpeted?

sorry, was on my phone and didn't see your full post.

they're toed in pointing at the center of my couch. grills are on and I'm probably 6-7 feet in front of them. walls are carpeted

dragon1952

Maybe the speakers need to break in a little more?

brianedm wrote: »

sorry, was on my phone and didn't see your full post.

they're toed in pointing at the center of my couch. grills are on and I'm probably 6-7 feet in front of them.

Wow...that's pretty close. I'm assuming you've played with toe-in/no toe-in? Carpet or bare floors?

steveinaz

6-7 feet, that's pretty close---try firing them straight ahead, rather than having any toe-in. This will also give you a wider soundstage. That should help some. Also, if at all possible--move your couch back a bit, even another foot would help.

dragon1952

lol...was editing while Steve was posting

newrival

yeah that toe in is quite severe. 10 degrees off of parallell would be about max. taking those tweeters head on like that would fatigue anyone with some hearing left.

brianedm

Thanks guys. I'll give that a shot when I get home!

newrival

let us know how it works out!

and as the others have said, moving back a bit with the couch would help some, too
but to your original question, i'm sure an external amp could also alleviate some of that edge. just try the free options out first

steveinaz

^Agree, I think an amp change would be subtle at best, at curbing listener fatique (IMO). I'd recommend different speakers first--as this is the root of the problem.

brianedm

Hey guys, reducing the toe in drastically improved the situation. thanks. Rookie mistake, I guess I've been getting lots of help on here.

newrival

awesome to hear it! happy listening!

F1nut

I know my new tower speakers

Key word......NEW.

They need to break in, the tweeters will mellow with time.

tonyb

I would also take a look at the cables, some brands have a warmer sound to them than others. What are you using now ?

brianedm

rocketfish 16 gauge i picked up at futureshop. I'm gonna order something from blue jeans cable soon, I've heard good things about them... unless there are other suggestions out there?

newrival

F1nut wrote: »

Key word......NEW.

They need to break in, the tweeters will mellow with time.

As has been evident by way of remedy, the key here was being pointed directly at the listening position. Combine that with being 6 feet away in a quasi near-field situation with RTs, I don't care how long the tweeters have been broken in, you're going to be fatigued.

In a an audio world mired in minutiae, it helps to exercise a little parsimony.

newrival

brianedm wrote: »

rocketfish 16 gauge i picked up at futureshop. I'm gonna order something from blue jeans cable soon, I've heard good things about them... unless there are other suggestions out there?

In my opinion, cables would be low on the priority list for the system if I were in your shoes. Picking up some entry levels would be fine, but I wouldn't drop much at all on them. blue jean is popular, I ran Knukonceptz KL3 for a while with good success.
but personally, I would be looking at room treatments first, then amplification, then cables. in that order. Again, solely my opinion. Others may want you to spend $500 on a pair of interconnects. I'd say save it for when your system is more resolving and you'll actually be able to hear the differences.

tonyb

Man o man, nobody said anything about spending 500 clams on cables, let alone interconnects.

Kimber cable has a warmer sound to them and aren't expensive at all. Maybe check out audiogon for a used pair to save even more. The 4tc or 8 tc should be good.

Room treatments would be first but they aren't for everyone in appearance, especially if you have a wife to tend with. Placement is also key, and I guess you found that out already. An amp will help some too, or not, depends on the amp which is also a considerable investment should you go that route. Cables to me anyway is the cheapest solution and can be resold if you don't like them for minimal to no loss. Also look at audiogon for auctions on Mac cables, a tad more neutral but not harsh on the top end.
Just a suggestion anyway, many in this thread have some good suggestions too so take it all for what it's worth to you.

dragon1952

newrival wrote: »

As has been evident by way of remedy, the key here was being pointed directly at the listening position. Combine that with being 6 feet away in a quasi near-field situation with RTs, I don't care how long the tweeters have been broken in, you're going to be fatigued.

In a an audio world mired in minutiae, it helps to exercise a little parsimony.

And the parsimony can often times help with the matrimony :^ )

BlueFox

Just what is listener fatigue? I'm not sure how something can sound good at the start, but suck later.

tonyb

Have to agree, 6 ft away is pretty darn close.....especially with those speaks. But from what I can tell, the dude is fairly happy with it so it can't be all bad. Aside from some tweaking, not much he can really do without swapping out speakers. I still believe those Rocketfish cables are the source of his unwanted higher end. The Denon is fairly laid back, the 7's can be bright but the Denon should offset that some, that leaves the room and cables. That would be the 2 area's I would look into off the bat with maybe a third try with a tube buffer to soften it up some.

newrival

tonyb wrote: »

Man o man, nobody said anything about spending 500 clams on cables, let alone interconnects.

Kimber cable has a warmer sound to them and aren't expensive at all. Maybe check out audiogon for a used pair to save even more. The 4tc or 8 tc should be good.

Room treatments would be first but they aren't for everyone in appearance, especially if you have a wife to tend with. Placement is also key, and I guess you found that out already. An amp will help some too, or not, depends on the amp which is also a considerable investment should you go that route. Cables to me anyway is the cheapest solution and can be resold if you don't like them for minimal to no loss. Also look at audiogon for auctions on Mac cables, a tad more neutral but not harsh on the top end.
Just a suggestion anyway, many in this thread have some good suggestions too so take it all for what it's worth to you.

yeah I didn't mean that to be directed at anyone, just as a joke really. I know you weren't going to suggest MIT Shotguns, but I wouldn;t put it past others... haha, just having some fun

Good point about them being a cheap experiment. I just didn't like when I began that very experiment and my results were "little to no difference," I came back here and was told it was because I wasn't spending enough on them. The real reason was that my system was nowhere near resolving enough to that the difference would be discernable.

But if one is going to buy used, and they like to tinker, I say, go for it.

newrival

BlueFox wrote: »

Just what is listener fatigue? I'm not sure how something can sound good at the start, but suck later.

listener fatigue is typically brought on by pronounced sibilance, or sharp highs. Additionally, static, noise, interference can cause it as well. The symptoms may be something like a general feeling of unease or discomfort. I get this weird metallic feeling above my jaw in my ear. Don't know how to better explain it. At any rate it is something that is not usually experienced at once, but is a cumulative effect that grows as you listen. It can sound pleasing, but sounding good and listener fatigue are not mutually exclusive. You can have both even though that seems counter-intuitive.

F1nut

In my dedicated HT rig I have the same fronts, very slight toe in, spiked on carpet, I sit about 7-8 feet back. Brand new they hurt my ears, added MIT speaker cables, better. After a few hundred hours, no more listener fatigue.

newrival

F1nut wrote: »

In my dedicated HT rig I have the same fronts, very slight toe in, spiked on carpet, I sit about 7-8 feet back. Brand new they hurt my ears, added MIT speaker cables, better. After a few hundred hours, no more listener fatigue.

im with you, break in helps a little. but aim them at your head, i'll bet you get fatigued even with the cables and break-in.

brianedm

I realized when I got home yesterday I was a little more than 6 feet away. was going from memory but it's probably closer to 8 feet. I'll keep those Kimber and mit cables in mind, thanks for the suggestion

tonyb

There's also a pair of speaker cables in the FM right now that would be light years better than the Rocketfish your using, and for only a tad over 100 bones.

brianedm

Unfortunately I don't think 8 feet would be quite long enough to reach my left floor stander. Receivers on the right hand side and there's a 60 inch tv in the middle. With needing to get the speaker 2-3 feet off the wall it just doesn't work.

dragon1952

These are a decent place to start for $99
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/audioquest-type-4-speaker-cables-audioquest-type-4-spea
Not sure how the spades would work with your AVR though.