Seriously considering this purchase

heiney9
heiney9 Posts: 25,165
edited April 2012 in 2 Channel Audio
I am seriously considering the First Watt M2 to compare to my Aleph 30 and see which one I would keep. I am completely intrigued by the design of the M2 and I am thinking since it's a voltage gain amplifier it should work with traditional speakers like my SDA 1C's. I'm quite sure (although haven't confirmed) it's not common ground so that means building an AI-1.

Any concerns from the amp guru's out there about how this will match up to SDA's? The First Watt stuff is usually highly specialized for very specific types of speakers, but I think the M2 is a little different in that regard.

Reno Hi-Fi have a fully warranted used M2 for a great price, good enough I could flip it if it didn't work out. But that kind of coin is a lot to me so I need to be sure it won't be a failure from the get go.

Only spec I can see that might be an issue compared to the Aleph 30 is the gain, but I barely have to turn the vol control on the Dared now. The Aleph does 30/40 wpc 8/4 ohm. And that is more than enough by quite a bit, so concerns about power ratings shouldn't be an issue. This is actually considered a push/pull class A circuit where the Aleph 30 is single ended.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt11/m2.html

Comments, concerns, advice, criticism, etc.

H9
"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited March 2012
    I say....(fist pounding table) DRINK, DRINK, DRINK, DRINK.....LOL. Those (FirstWatt) are interesting amps.

    There will be a Pass Labs amp in my future system.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited March 2012
    I dunno Brock, from reading the review, doesn't sound like your cup of tea if the Aleph 30 is your measuring stick. Lots of coin for maybe a different sound, not necessarilly a better one. Just my .02....You may see better returns by investing the coin elsewhere, like in new speakers. Just a thought.
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited March 2012
    I would pass not my cup of tea.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2012
    tonyb wrote: »
    I dunno Brock, from reading the review, doesn't sound like your cup of tea if the Aleph 30 is your measuring stick. Lots of coin for maybe a different sound, not necessarilly a better one. Just my .02....You may see better returns by investing the coin elsewhere, like in new speakers. Just a thought.

    I know Tony, that's why I'm vacillating back and forth. Not sure for the cost if it's enough of a departure from the Aleph, ie, how much will I actually gain for a $1700 investment. No doubt they have nuanced differences. I LOVE my Aleph and have no reason to look for something new, other than I am wanting to try something different. I am leaning towards saving an extra $1000 (in addition to the $1700 I'd spend on the M2) and just buying what I believe my next amp will be and that is the......

    Pass Labs XA30.5

    http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/pass_labs_xa305_power_amplifier

    http://www.enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/0210/pass_labs_XA305.htm

    Not ready or even comtemplating giving up the SDA's at this point. :lol:

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited March 2012
    This is easy for me, since you're buyin'...:cheesygrin:
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited March 2012
    Many people on here have said that you should spend the money right the first time. I think you should save up for the Pass Labs XA30.5. It has great reviews on the sound and looks like a piece of audio ART. If you can buy the XA3 used then you wont loose a dime if you decide its not for you
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2012
    It would be ok for very low level listening but money wasted as far as I'm concerned with the 1C's. I say this because there are speakers with a lot more detail and depth which would make the purchase worthwhile but I don't think the 1C's have the resolving power for it to make a reasonable improvement given the cost of the amp, I think most of the improvement made by the amp would be lost.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2012
    I respect that madmax, but then you'd probably think the Aleph I currently have is a waste of money since it's very similar to the M2. I'd have to strongly disagree then. My concern is given the difference in cost (net it's really only about $600 since I paid about $1K for the Aleph) will there be a $600 difference in presentation. I have no issue with the 1C's being up to the task of a better amplifier like the (XA30.5).

    I do appreciate the comment, even though I can't say I 100% agree, but it is food for thought.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2012
    It is just an opinion. I've connected several low power amps to my 1.2's (which are more efficient) just for the fun of it and going from midrange cost to high cost didn't seem to buy me much, at least not nearly as much as on my other speakers. Better, yes. Worth it, no. For $600 difference I guess I'm with you, give it a try! I'd consider other options too.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2012
    The thing is I have yet to reach the limit of the Aleph even though it's only 30 wpc so I'm not so concerned about raw wattage, but the M2 might be different since it's a First Watt product which aren't always designed for conventional speakers with passive crossovers, etc. I'll probably just hold out and get a used Pass XA30.5 when I find one. I had the same reservations when I was buying the Aleph 30, was it enough......it couldn't possibly be enough.....I passed on a few and contemplated almost a year. Finally pulled the trigger and it's by far the best audio purchase I've made. It has more than enough for my 1C's, unless I want to get stupid loud, which isn't necessary even if you can.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited March 2012
    Ya know, I'm gonna have to go along with Madmax on this one. Having owned SDA's myself, and I loved them, they are not the last word is resolution/detail, which better electronics would showcase. I understand the itch that needs to be scratched, but maybe give some food for thought that your electronics are starting to get better than what can be portrayed by the speakers. Thus giving maybe a slight improvement in SQ over what could be more noticeable. If you can try it out and flip it if you don't care for it, then you have nothing to lose. However, it is one expensive piece of gear, but god knows we all took a leap of faith in this hobby with thousands of bucks. Your call but if you decide to go for it don't make me dog ya for a review....again.:cheesygrin:

    I may be more layed back this time and give you 12 hours.:smile:
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited March 2012
    I'm just thinking out loud here as Reno Hi-Fi has an M2 listed for $1595 which is a very good price considering it's coming from a dealer, has been thoroughly checked and has a warranty. I don't care about the warranty as Pass stuff rarely breaks. The $3K+ for a used XA30.5 is going to take A LOT more thought. One downside is even if I bought the M2, I'd still have to build an AI-1 so I wouldn't be able to immediately listen to it in the main rig.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2012
    I didn't realize about the AI-1 with the M2. I would not do it, no luck with playing with the AI-1 and a home built version. By no luck I don't mean it didn't work, I mean the sound wasn't quite as good. "Not quite as good" means I personally lost something I liked, again this is my opinion. I conceded that I will always use common ground amps with them.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    .... even if I bought the M2, I'd still have to build an AI-1 .....
    Nope.
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  • CoolJazz
    CoolJazz Posts: 570
    edited March 2012
    heiney9 wrote: »
    The thing is I have yet to reach the limit of the Aleph even though it's only 30 wpc so I'm not so concerned about raw wattage, but the M2 might be different since it's a First Watt product which aren't always designed for conventional speakers with passive crossovers, etc. I'll probably just hold out and get a used Pass XA30.5 when I find one. I had the same reservations when I was buying the Aleph 30, was it enough......it couldn't possibly be enough.....I passed on a few and contemplated almost a year. Finally pulled the trigger and it's by far the best audio purchase I've made. It has more than enough for my 1C's, unless I want to get stupid loud, which isn't necessary even if you can.

    H9
    Looking at the simplified drawing, it looks to me like the chances for it being common ground should be pretty high. I'd ask!

    The difference between 25 and 30 wpc doesn't seem like you'd be changing much there. And even if it did, I'd always go for better quality 99% of the time even if it did mean a little more care on the party rock levels!

    Your comment about not always being designed for conventional spkrs...that's true with the current output models, the F1 and 2. Also, the F4 needs to be paired with a bit more concern for the preamp having voltage gain. But otherwise, and with the model you're looking at, I don't see any concern.

    I'm running the F1 and just love it on crossoverless speakers! I'd like, in a self serving way, for you to try it just so you'd post your impressions! The concept seems very interesting....but then I like the effect of iron in the path myself!

    CJ
    A so called science type proudly says... "I do realize that I would fool myself all the time, about listening conclusions and many other observations, if I did listen before buying. That’s why I don’t, I bought all of my current gear based on technical parameters alone, such as specs and measurements."

    More amazing Internet Science Pink Panther wisdom..."My DAC has since been upgraded from Mark Levinson to Topping."
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited March 2012
    Is the M2 like otl amps and do better with higher ohm speakers?
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2012
    thsmith wrote: »
    Is the M2 like otl amps and do better with higher ohm speakers?
    No since a pair of mosfets drive the output and it's comfortable driving a 4 ohm load .
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2012
    Its all a fun experience whichever way you go! I got a ton of increased performance out of my SDA's before I stopped focusing on them, way more than I ever expected.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited March 2012
    +1 Madmax, The ceiling seems quiet high. They respond well to tweaks and gear upgrades.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited March 2012
    I hope you go for it. You really have nothing to lose (except maybe shipping costs) and everything to gain, because you can flip it. It will be a fun experiment and you could really like it.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited March 2012
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    I hope you go for it. You really have nothing to lose (except maybe shipping costs) and everything to gain, because you can flip it. It will be a fun experiment and you could really like it.

    +1 The SDA's go further than most think! Just watch out for the A1 interface.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,561
    edited March 2012
    Only spec I can see that might be an issue compared to the Aleph 30 is the gain, but I barely have to turn the vol control on the Dared now.

    In that case you don't have well matched pieces.



    Quite messing around, buy some big a$$ Manley mono blocks or something and don't listen to Chuck about the AI-1.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited March 2012
    Yeah, not sure why madmax is saying the AI-1 is inferior to the standard SDA cable? To my ears, it is greatly improved with DK's Dreadnought. Although, maybe madmax is talking about the original Polk manufactured AI-1.

    Greg
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

    "Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
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  • FTGV
    FTGV Posts: 3,649
    edited March 2012
    High probability it's common ground so no AI-1 needed.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited April 2012
    headrott wrote: »
    Although, maybe madmax is talking about the original Polk manufactured AI-1.

    Greg

    Yes, the original AI-1 and one I made using a transformer polk recommended at the time. Not the best results for me with either one. I think DK's used a very fine torroid transformer, probably much better.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited April 2012
    F1nut wrote: »
    Quite messing around, buy some big a$$ Manley mono blocks

    Agree, either that or keep your baby.

    RT1
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  • Drenis
    Drenis Posts: 2,871
    edited April 2012
    What? You haven't taken the plunge yet!?
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited April 2012
    Come on Brock...get those cobwebs out of your wallet & pull the trigger already. You know you want too.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,965
    edited April 2012
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Come on Brock...get those cobwebs out of your wallet & pull the trigger already. You know you want too.

    LOL....I don't know if you want to hear that wallet open Phil, the noise it makes has been known to wake bats out of hybernation.
    HT SYSTEM-
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    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,165
    edited April 2012
    Lol guys!

    I decided to keep my 'baby' and wait until I can get the XA30.5 or some other Pass amp like the newly develped SIT based amps that he is finally bringing to market. I am completely satisfied with the Aleph 30 and the M2, while a cool type of amp, would be more or a lateral move and to satisfy curiosity about it's sound and inner workings, etc.

    I am still curious but not $1600+ curious at this point, not to mention with Summer around the corner my listening time and habits are decreased by about 1/2 compared to Fall and Winter months.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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