Short read on Compression - from a man who knows

newrival

I enjoyed this quick read from engineer, Steve Stone.

http://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-music/c-o-m-p-r-e-s-s-i-o-n.html

Just to get your juices flowing:
"So, the next time someone starts the standard audiophile bitchfest about compression and limiting, you might mention that their favorite LP/CD most likely has some compression somewhere in the recording chain..."
:cheesygrin:

steveinaz

For anyone who has experienced live music, he's stating the obvious. Of course there has to be some compression, that's why recordings don't capture the same dynamic swings as live music. I've never heard recorded drums sound like live drums---it just can't be done (so far). It's overly compressed music that can be avoided, and should be avoided.

tonyb

What he doesn't address is any additional compression that may take place from the master on down. While I'm sure we all know music has to be somewhat compressed, it's the amount of compression that matters to music lovers. Seems like he's splitting hairs in the article, making a case that compression happens so stop bitching about it. Doesn't fly with me.

heiney9

Yes, but the type of compression used in the recording studio is entirely different in scope and execution than lossy compression used to create MP3's. So let's not start letting people assume because it's used (and has been used for decades) in a recording studio that it's acceptable to assume MP3's are now alright as an audiophile medium, because they are not.

H9

P.s. I had to get that comment out front right away before some a$$hat comes in this thread starting to comment about lossy compression being the same, yada, yada, yada. :razz:

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

For anyone who has experienced live music, he's stating the obvious. Of course there has to be some compression, that's why recordings don't capture the same dynamic swings as live music. I've never heard recorded drums sound like live drums---it just can't be done (so far). It's overly compressed music that can be avoided, and should be avoided.

Some Zep recordings with Bonham come damn close.

Compression is a good thing when used properly by a professional. It is needed to get the best from a stereo recording especially when there are multiple instruments involved. The recording engineer is trying to "paint a picture" to the listener for lack of a better analogy. I have heard some incredible recordings and it's all about the technique and using the tools available for a certain outcome.

H9

steveinaz

I have an uncle that was (and still plays as a hobby) a jazz drummer. He used to put jazz albums on and drum to them for us when we were younger. I still can't recall anything recorded that comes anywhere near to close to the dynamics and shear visceral feel, attack and decay of those drums. But hey, that's just my 2 cents.

heiney9

Hey Steve,

I have a friend who is a drummer and it is weird to hear recorded drums vs. real drums. I'm not just talking the dynamics but even the tone is completely different. Attack and decay of cymbals, attack and decay of the bass drum, it resonates after each kick and when I hear that in a recording I get a smile, etc.

One really good point the article made is when a drum track is the only thing recorded it can be more dynamic and the tone can be correct, decay and attack is correct, but it's when you start mixing it with other instruments, etc it become complicated.

One thing I look for in a good recording of music I really like is the "snap" of the snare drum, it the snare is more of a thud then I tend to loose interest.

H9

Joe08867

I have rarely if ever heard drums sound as they should on a recording. Some live records are close sound wise but not dynamically.

As a drummer I listen for two things. The bounce of the bass guitar in comparison to the bass drum and the snap of the cymbals and snare drum for muffling or to much shimmer. If they are missing the train on those two points it all sounds like mud to me. And honestly just sucks to me, no matter how good the performers.

Like Brock said, Compression used correctly can be a good thing.

steveinaz

Agree, that "wood on brass" shimmer is killer if you can find very good source material that captures it; but it's rare and still doesn't compare to the realism of live cymbals. My current speakers are THE most accurate in this regard (snap and shimmer), of anything else I've ever owned.

newrival

A couple opinions:

It is my opinion, that many have never heard properly sounding drums because they're listening on the wrong gear. I believe that the best live drum recreation is achieved by open baffles. They have a quickness and dynamism that is not achievable with a box speaker. You can try to reduce box resonance all you want, but until you get rid of the box, you won't achieve it. OB bass is like nothing else. Drums are the number 1 thing i listen to when auditioning. My favorite being the reproduction of tympanis. If you're a drum fan, you owe it to yourself to hear your favorite drum track on a set of properly eq'd OBs

Bill Bruford has a few great songs wth awesome drum intros and solos and are recorded exellently. Worth checking out.

hochpt21

Interesting timing of this topic for me. I've always listened to music, but only in the last couple years really started listening. I've always heard the term compression, but never thought much of it and never really heard the difference.

The last month or so I have been listening to live bootlegs of Pearl Jam (they sell live boots on their website). They are very well recorded. Anyway, I have three full concerts so that is literally almost all I have been listening to for the last month.

The other day I put in their studio recording of Vitalogy. Here are the two real world examples that I could compare it to.
1) Music playing in another room and you have your ear to the door listening.
2) Your at a concert all night and on the way home (with your ears roached) you put on a cd and it sounds muffled.

I couldn't believe it. I put the live boot back in and it sounded perfect. Maybe those two disks have a large difference, but at least I know I know what to listen for.

George Grand

I said it here ten years ago. Give a 10 year old kid a brand-new set of drums and record him playing those drums. See if it's live or Memorex. Not even close. Cobham's work is the best recorded drums out there. Bonham? Get real.

mhardy6647

Joe08867 wrote: »

I have rarely if ever heard drums sound as they should on a recording. Some live records are close sound wise but not dynamically.

Have you heard the drum solo on the track "Old Hymn" on the eponymous Charlie Byrd direct to disk 45 rpm album on Crystal Clear Records? Best sounding recorded drums I have ever heard.

Zappa's (live) recording, Hands with a Hammer (Terry Bozzio) is also very, very good.

headrott

newrival wrote: »

Bill Bruford has a few great songs wth awesome drum intros and solos and are recorded exellently. Worth checking out.

Bruford is probably my favorite drummer. He's certainly not the fastest by any means. He has a precision about his playing that most other drummers don't have. He is extremely precise, but doesn't sound mechanical but very natural. He is also one of the most intelligent drummers out there, IMO. Below is a somewhat long video of his. Certainly worth watching.


[video=youtube_share;5l7VWjEAFCM]http://youtu.be/5l7VWjEAFCM[/video]

Greg

steveinaz

George Grand wrote: »

I said it here ten years ago. Give a 10 year old kid a brand-new set of drums and record him playing those drums. See if it's live or Memorex. Not even close. Cobham's work is the best recorded drums out there. Bonham? Get real.

Exactly. I don't know how anyone who has heard live drums can think otherwise, and I'm friggin deaf.

Drenis

Sheffield Lab Drum & Track disc - Tracks #1 & 2 in that order.

Some great drum material I use as a reference in my system. Especially from about 4:00 in on the first track and let it rip!

Dennis Gardner

You mean expecting 8 inch woofs and 1 inch tweets to sound the same as 14-24 inch drum heads and cymbals is too much? hehe

markmarc

It's no secret that compression has been used in audio records for eons. For Steven Stone to claim that most audiophiles don't understand this fact is BS. What Stone should have talked about is the difference between appropriate compression versus the abusive levels that have been destroying recorded music in the last several years.

But there is hope as technology will allow for the loudness war to be left behind.
http://mixonline.com/mixline/reierson_loudness_war_0802/

audiocr381ve

It's not that mysterious. It's hard as hell to mic drums in the studio and even harder to find a studio who has a room to let the drums really shine. Every drummer uses different cymbal combinations, so that mysterious sought after "shimmer" could be a cymbal choice you're hearing. Their are tons of overhead mic techniques for recording drums, all of them sound different. The best microphones and preamps get close to capturing what's being played, but it's never perfect. We're talking about 10-20 (sometimes a hell of a lot more) different instruments being recording at once (cymbals, kick, snare, toms, misc. percussion, etc.). Their is no way to isolate each of these parts on a real drum set (not electric), so it's not going to be as perfect as say a violin in an isolated room during recording.

Cobham's great, but saying he's got the best recorded drums out there is just silly. It was all about the player, not the gear. Cobham sounds great because he played great. For jazz drummers, it's all about control. I bet the engineer on his recordings didn't even have to apply compression because he was so controlled.