New Build - Subaru Outback 2005 XT Limited

eloplayspolo

And so it begins...

Well, sold my old wheels and got myself a Outback.
I am moving to Vermont/New Hampshire in the summer with my girl. She will be going to Vermont Law and I will continue with my current software company and working from home.

Now that I have the new car I Obviously need to put some new Polk gear in it!

So far I purchased the SR5250s from Dskip.
I also just purchased a DVC SR12.

I am eyeing the Kenwood XR-4 for bi-amping as well as the XR-1 for the Sub.

I also made a stop by AL & Eds today to get a quote on a custom box. With carpet they are asking for 350.00 but they said they would make me a deal if I got a Bit 10D from them, that was 600.00

Thinking i might be able to get the two of them for 875.00 - Not too bad... After i left i also noticed they carry Mosconi... Tempting to get that DSP, ill have to ask if they have it.

Anyways, I don't know if i am going to go for it and try to glass the box myself or have them do it. I don't really want to end up spending 100 bucks on glassing materials and end up with a **** box with the wrong specs. I am thinking i might as well pay the extra 200 bucks for labor and have them make it the 1.25 the 12" shines in...

For the head unit I am looking at some sort of Double Din Nav, but as an attempt to save some cash i may just go with a single din that I can plug my aux into and have my ipod.

Unfortunately the factory radio in my vehicle is integrated with the climate controls and i have to order a 420.00 Kit from japan. Major wrench in the gears here.

So we are looking at:
SR5250s
SR124
Bit Ten D
Kenwood XR-4
Kenwood XR-1
A Double din i need to figure out.

arun1963

You have the makings of a killer setup, congrats. With the bit10 you don't need to spend big on the hu. A basic hu with pre out will do. The bit10 will do everything else.

eloplayspolo

arun1963 wrote: »

You have the makings of a killer setup, congrats. With the bit10 you don't need to spend big on the hu. A basic hu with pre out will do. The bit10 will do everything else.

Yeah, but I still want to have the nice double din navi. its a beautiful car and deserves it.

Here we go...

Item # Product Name QTY Price Total
KCA4R KCA Kable 4 Gauge Ultra Fleks Red CCA Power / Ground Cable 26 $0.95 $24.70
KCA8R KCA Kable 8 Gauge Ultra Fleks Red CCA Power / Ground Cable 10 $0.47 $4.70
KCA8BK KCA Kable 8 Gauge Ultra Fleks Black CCA Ground Cable 15 $0.47 $7.05
RT4516BK Gold Plated 4 Gauge Ring Terminal -Black 2 $0.99 $1.98
PB-1448 PB-1448 Power/Ground Distribution Block 2 $4.99 $9.98
FH-44 In-Line Waterproof Mini-ANL Fuse Holder (120A) 1 $7.99 $7.99
TCA12C-100 NEW - TCA Speaker Wire 12 Gauge Tinned CCA - 100' 1 $30.00 $30.00


SubTotal:
$86.40
Shipping:
$10.49
Sales Tax:
$0.00
Total:
$96.89

eloplayspolo

how much better do u guys think the bit 10d is over the ms-8?

pentoncm

The MS-8 is an auto tuning processor. The downside is that it uses tons of Equalization to tune your car. I am personally against this because I feel that using the MS-8 eliminates a speakers character. It uses at least 512 bands of EQ if not 1000. This is alot of manipulation. On top of that you have a 31 band EQ to customize the sound. So after extensively auto tuning it with all of those bands you mess with it even more with the 31 band. At this point I think that it really wouldn't matter much what speakers you have because the response is so modified.

The bit ten on the other hand requires that you learn how to tune by yourself and will take longer to get right. The plus side to this is that by just using a 31 band you better maintain your speaker's "sound." I am confident however that the bit ten is going to be cleaner, it sends a higher output signal to the amps 4V max and I think that it uses better internal DAC/ADCs. I will check on this.

Honestly if you can afford it go with a Bit One and try to find a dealer that will get you a deal on it.

eloplayspolo

I would never go bit One, just a 10.
The 360.3 and the Mosconi are tempting though...

arun1963

eloplayspolo wrote: »

how much better do u guys think the bit 10d is over the ms-8?

I'm not a fan of MS8 as I don't think auto tune works in a car. My issue with the MS8 is, for what it does the base assumption is that JBL knows 100% about how we hear. I'm not so sure about that. The other thing is that the unit uses a mic for calibration. Even a 1K mic would have its limitation. Mics are more accurate than our hearing in the lower frequency range, but in the critical mid range to upper mids our ears are much more sensitive / accurate than a mic. Again this goes back to a mic not being able to replicate how we hear.

I'm not averse to having an eq at 1/48 octave (512 bands) but manually tuning 512 bands per driver is a sure shot shortcut to insanity While a typical car will have issues (peaks and dips) that you may not fully cover with a 1/3oct (31 bands) eq a 1/6 octave would be ideal. That said, in real world terms 31 bands per driver is really all you will need.

The idea of manual tuning is for you to use all the tuning tools at hand to overcome the effect of a crappy environment and less than ideal driver placements. Each car will present a different environment and placements. Hence its tough to have a one size fits all kind of solution. If you get the bit10 you will certainly need to learn how to tune. The results though will be well worth the effort.

eloplayspolo

thanks for all the input.

I was told to use the ms-8 and the auto tune as a starting point and to tweak it. The 360.3 is also supposed to be similar in that respect. The auto tuning is simply used as a starting point.

arun1963

The MS8 does not allow manual tuning of time alignment. Thats a big -ve. Everytime you change the xover points the unit automatically resets everything, may not be ideal.

The 360.3 has already missed several delivery dates. Typically this happens because of software bugs. There are high chances of some of these seeping through to the final product, as and when it's launched.

Ofcourse at the end of the day, it's your $$ and your decision.

pentoncm

This summer Audison is going to be releasing the Bit Tune which is their new autotuning package that complements their bit processors. If you can find an audison dealer that plans on purchasing it that could be a good way to go. The auto tune section on the Bit Tune is different than the MS8 becuase it doesn't use a 512 band EQ or anything like that. It just gives you the startup file with your EQ and Time alignment settings for you. After that you can do whatever tweaking that you want. The mic that Audison is releasing is more sophisticated than the JBL unit. I believe the Bit Tune is the first package to have multiple curves that you can select from for autotuning (others have just let you adjust the rolloff of the highs).

eloplayspolo

it definately sounds like the bit 10 is the way to go for me. Im not looking to simply get good sound of the the car, it is something i plan on doing for the rest of my life as a hobby, so maybe its just a good time for me to start and learn.

pentoncm

DSkip wrote: »

Have you given any thought about the DAC in whatever CDP you buy? My 860 has a burr-brown, one of the better chips at the time it was released. You might give that more of a thought than you had been if true SQ is your end product. I've noticed through home use that a CDP with a good DAC can make a great improvement on your sound.

I agree, the Alpine Double Din players have Burr Brown DACs I believe which would be a good choice. Also important, make sure that the source has at least 4V output.

arun1963

Guys,

Sorry to burst the bubble but this is car audio not home audio. Esoteric stuff like magical cables and burr brown dacs are pointless in the car audio world. Why? Let's assume that your HU/processor has the best dac's and you're using the MIT cables and you have the worlds most esoteric speakers. At the end of the day the said sound chain has to have an output. For a second lets assume this is the perfect output, its not but lets assume it is. This is the response measured 1" from the cone.

So are you hearing that output at ear level? No. This is what you hear at ear level. So much for the burr brown dac and whatever else. Your environment in a car will crap up the sound to a point where the esoteric differences will not count. You'll never clean it out to the point where you can hear that difference.

Home audio and car audio are two different worlds. In a car you can NEVER have too much dsp. But placement will always trump dsp. 500+ bands on your eq does not kill the voicing on your speakers. Your brains inability to manage 4.36 followed by 130 zeros combinations is what makes a 500 band eq unworkable. The car audio world has enough myths, lets not add to them.

Still want more proof? Kirk Proffit is a multiple sq winner at MECA. All his wins came with a stock hu+dsp+great install and placement. I dont think the DAC on a stock Acura HU would be anything to write home about.

pentoncm

S/N of the system definitely makes a difference. I tried something a while back with my bit ten to see if there would be a difference between (1) maxing out the HU and using the DRC as volume and (2) maxing out the DRC and using the HU as volume. It sounds much better to me by maxing out the HU versus the opposite of maxing out the bit outputs. I believe that the reason for this difference is that when you don't have the DRC and use the HU as a volume control the bit is seeing a variable input voltage dependent on HU output. This would be fine if S/N ratios didn't mean anything but I think that they really do and that is why having the DRC is better. By keeping the HU output at max possible level the s/n ratio is on average higher and constant leading to a cleaner signal at all volumes. To me using the HU as volume just sounds duller and not as clear.

What real difference is there between DACs? I really don't know. You would think that a better DAC would have a better S/N ratio so that could result in better sound quality. But how much of a S/N difference are we talking and can you hear it in the car environment? I would worry more about preamp output voltage of the HU over the DAC, I think that a 4V(max) signal is much more capable of combating noise compared to a 2V(max) signal.

arun1963

Want to improve your S/N ratio? Simple logic tell you to either reduce N, by lowering the noise floor, cause that will be way higher than the N your HU puts out, or raise the S by adding extra power. Extra power is cheaper and easier. Keep it simple buddy, don't over think.

pentoncm

I agree that increasing power will help the S/N ratio but this is because you will have to keep the gains at a lower point to reach the same SPL level. Any point where gain is involved you potentially increase the noise in the system. By using components with higher output voltages gains can be minimized while keeping noise down.

eloplayspolo

or just hijack my thread! GOSH GUYS!

IMO if you are worried about noise, just play the music at full volume 24/7 and lose your hearing. PROBLEM SOLVED! no more noise!

arun1963

eloplayspolo wrote: »

IMO if you are worried about noise, just play the music at full volume 24/7 and lose your hearing. PROBLEM SOLVED! no more noise!

LOL simple solutions are always the best ones

DSkip wrote: »

Arun, I'm not going to argue with you on that one (though I disagree, I think ) nor did I tell him to pursue one just for the DAC. I simply stated it could be considered before buying a CDP. The differences I've heard in DAC's provided more improvements in detail and imaging than just plain tonality. The separation I got out of the SHARC chip as opposed to the older CDP's I tried was astounding. I'm not sure how much that plays into a system with such heavy DSP in it, but it couldn't hurt.

I was sceptical about stuff like dac's and cables till I got my 2ch setup at home. Now I'm not so sure. By swapping stuff around in a home 2ch, you can hear the difference. I am not contesting that. But the differences are subtle and I'm sure you would not hear it in a car .

eloplayspolo

Well, talked to Rick over at RAAM Audio. One of the best guys i have ever had the pleasure of doing business with.

Not only was he able to give me recommendations, but he gave me a small discount and saved me some money...

He actually made sure i wasn't over ordering as well, most companies would try to upsell you, this guy just said here's what you need.

So we've got the Wiring done, dampener done, Sound proofing done, Sub and components.

Now its time to wait for my check and order those amps.

eloplayspolo

sold the car and got a 2013 prius. saving 300 a month on gas.

ive had it for about 6 months and im ready to install. Trying to plan it out and figure out how to get everything hidden away... including the sr12

Box size 1.25 sealed right?

MacLeod

Yep.

eloplayspolo

New wheels. New install.
(2) jl 13tw5
(1) alpine 1200w rms
(1) Polk sr5250
(1) alpine 120x4
(1) mosconi 4to6 or 6to8. Prob 6to8
Stock radio. Good chance I move to some 3" audible physics ram drivers. I am also in search of an 8 to pair them with. Illusion c8 is nice, but pricey.