LSi speakers with denon avr 1912

spphoenix

I am in the process of purchasing an LSi speaker system and was concerned if my receiver could drive them. I have a Denon AVR 1912, which is only rated at 125W/ Ch @ 6 ohm nominal impedance. The LSi's are rated at 4. I have been told that as long as I keep the receiver well ventilated and watch my volume, I should be ok, but i was wondering if anyone have any experience with this? Here is the speaker setup I will be using:

2 LSi15
2 LSi9
1 LSiC
2 Lc80i (I might not use these if the rest of the system sounds fine)

Thanks for any help you can provide.

rooftop59

Do a little search around the forum and you will quickly see that this is not recommended. Yes, I imagine that with very moderate to low volume you probably won't fry anything, but with speakers that nice (and with that much invested) why risk it??? Get a beefier receiver with preouts (I personally love the sound of HKs with Lsis) and external amps to drive those speakers. You will have peace of mind that will not fry your amp or speakers and you will love the sound.

Good luck!

nhhiep

hook up that low end AVR to that many 4 ohms speakers is a quick way to kill it or worse, clip the tweeters to dead. since you invested so much in speakers already, why not get the cheapest AVR with features you want with preouts? used amps are pretty cheap., check out audiogon.com

Lietuvis91

Is that AVR even 4 ohm stable? If in the manual it doesn't explicitly say that it is ok to run 4ohm speakers on this receiver, I would not do it.

spphoenix

Thanks for getting back to me. I'm very new when it comes to speakers of this quality, but the prices for them are attractive right now and the reviews are good.

So that said please bear with me here. Can you point me to a good forum or article or something that discusses preouts and connecting amps into your system? That is all pretty foreign verbiage for me.

rooftop59

Basically you will need to look for an avr with pre-outs (on the back it will say something like main out or pre out and will have 6 or 8 rca jacks). Look at this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117401 and zoom in on the 4th image and you will actually see 9 pre-outs for 7.2 channel. You then need to purchase power amplifiers (not a receiver) and analog rca cables to connect the receiver to the amplifiers. For illustrative purposes, her eis an example: http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/x-series/products/xpa5 I would go with used options, especially on the amp, and you don't have to get a 5 channel amp. you can purchase 3 2 channel amps for instance and you might save some coin with something like adcoms.

Good luck!

spphoenix

Ok, so pre-outs basically allow an external amp to supply power to those speakers? And at that point does it matter what the receiver is rated at, or is it now just giving you a nice user interface?

And actually do you guys like the Pioneer rooftop posted? That looks like it would fit my budget.

ravaneli

You are not gona clip or damage the speakers in any way. If underpowering speakers was leading to clip, we would be afraid to turn the volume down.
your receiver however is not going to last long, and if you push it to play loud it may burn quite quickly. Lower impedance increases the current and the operating temperature. If the receiver is not rated at 4 ohm it means it's not rated for the high current and temperature.

But I am sure you can play them for a while until you come up with a proper solution, just keep the volume low. At most, you are gona fry your receiver..

That pioneer goes for 399 every now and then, so you may wana wait and skirmish one at the right moment.

rooftop59

spphoenix wrote: »

Ok, so pre-outs basically allow an external amp to supply power to those speakers? And at that point does it matter what the receiver is rated at, or is it now just giving you a nice user interface?

And actually do you guys like the Pioneer rooftop posted? That looks like it would fit my budget.

I have never owned a pioneer, but lots of folks on here really like em. I wouldn't mind having one of those myself.

Yes, it no longer matters what impedance load or wpc the receiver is rated at, because all the power/amplification is provided by the external amp. You are essentially turning the receiver into a home theater processor. It still does a lot: implements the crossover for the sub, allows you to switch between multiple audio (and video) inputs, sets the volume and distance for each individual speaker, eqs the entire setup if you want it to, etc.

Also, you can begin with just the pioneer and a 2 channel amp (such as an adcom gfa 545 or 555) for the mains, and then slowly add other amps. I would NOT run those lsi15s without an external amp. Check out audiogon.com for some used amps.

EndersShadow

spphoenix wrote: »

Ok, so pre-outs basically allow an external amp to supply power to those speakers?

Yes

spphoenix wrote: »

And at that point does it matter what the receiver is rated at, or is it now just giving you a nice user interface?

Your basically using it for just its features, not its rated power.

spphoenix

This has been very educational. Thanks all for your help. My last question I promise, but are there any other receivers you would recommend I look into?

gdpeck

ravaneli wrote: »

You are not gona clip or damage the speakers in any way. If underpowering speakers was leading to clip, we would be afraid to turn the volume down.

DSkip wrote: »

OP, please disregard this. He doesn't know what he's talking about. Running an entry-level receiver with those speakers is just as dangerous to the speakers as it is to the receiver.

+1 on what DSkip said. The speakers don't clip. The receiver or amplifier clips and sends basically pure distortion to the speakers at a very high level. This can and does damage speakers. You might be able to run the receiver at lower volumes and avoid this, but you definitely won't be getting the most potential out of your very nice speakers. I like Denon stuff, but the AVR 1912 isn't the right tool for the job, if the job is powering 5 or 7 4ohm speakers. It's like using a paper clip to pound nails.

ravaneli

OK, can any of you condescending omnipotent scholars explain to me why am I wrong? Gdpeck actually admits there will be no clipping but still says I am wrong and the other dude is right.
And yet it is the clipping that causes excess power draw that causes overheating.
I agree that a 6ohm receiver will not generate quality signal with a 4 ohm load. But it is one thing to say the speakers will sound bad, and totally different to say it will kill them.
Do you think that a speaker even knows what distortion is? How many watts are those LSI speakers? Do you think you can damage them by feeding them 10 watts of distorted signal?

cfrizz

gdpeck wrote: »

+1 on what DSkip said. The speakers don't clip. The receiver or amplifier clips and sends basically pure distortion to the speakers at a very high level. This can and does damage speakers. You might be able to run the receiver at lower volumes and avoid this, but you definitely won't be getting the most potential out of your very nice speakers. I like Denon stuff, but the AVR 1912 isn't the right tool for the job, if the job is powering 5 or 7 4ohm speakers. It's like using a paper clip to pound nails.

See the highlighted section. The bottom line it the clipping is bad for both the receiver & the speakers. I think he would soon grow tired of keeping the volume low so as to not damage them & having to sit right next to them to hear them. Feed them the proper power so that they operate to their full potential so that they can be enjoyed to the max.

If you're not willing to invest in the right gear to do that, then why bother? Just get an easier system to drive.

tonyb

Why Cathy, you "condescending omnipotent scholar" you.:cheesygrin:

ravaneli

now we are just making stuff up. what does that even mean? Receiver clipping..

I don't think your speaker cares if it plays 100% pure signal of classical music or that sound when the TV loses signal and goes Ghhhhhh. It does care about overheating, and for that reason for clipping. But when the speaker is that much under it's power rating what will do the damage? Something needs to do physical damage to the speaker.

Dskip, what does the term 'max power handling 300W' mean to you? Are you seriously suggesting that if distorted low power signal could destroy a speaker no manufacturer would post warnings on that? Don't see no lawsuit problems with that, warranty claims..

tonyb

ravaneli wrote: »

now we are just making stuff up. what does that even mean? Receiver clipping....

Nobody is making stuff up, google receiver clipping if you don't believe anyone.

I think your misunderstanding the principle. It's not low volume thats the problem, it's low power. When a speaker needs x amount of power, and the receiver has x amount of power to give and you turn up the volume dial, the receiver runs out of power and clips. This can happen at moderate volume levels depending on how out of whack the differences are. So when we say under powering a speaker is bad, we aren't talking about low volume, but low power available to run the speaker.

gdpeck

ravaneli wrote: »

now we are just making stuff up. what does that even mean? Receiver clipping..

I don't think your speaker cares if it plays 100% pure signal of classical music or that sound when the TV loses signal and goes Ghhhhhh. It does care about overheating, and for that reason for clipping. But when the speaker is that much under it's power rating what will do the damage? Something needs to do physical damage to the speaker.

Dskip, what does the term 'max power handling 300W' mean to you? Are you seriously suggesting that if distorted low power signal could destroy a speaker no manufacturer would post warnings on that? Don't see no lawsuit problems with that, warranty claims..

I never admitted that there is no clipping. Clipping doesn't happen at the speaker. It happens when an amplifier or receiver tries to create a signal that is more powerful than it has the current to provide. The resulting signal is distorted and is often beyond the power capabilities of the receiver. This distorted signal is what does damage to the speakers. It isn't a low power signal. There is a lot of information about clipping and exactly what it is on the internet. Here's a place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_(audio). I understand that wikipedia isn't the most authoritative source, but there is good information in this entry.

I don't know if anyone has said the speakers will sound bad driven with a low power receiver, but they certainly won't live up to their potential. There is also a very real potential to damage the low powered receiver by presenting it with a load that it isn't designed to handle. The OP in this thread is talking about an investment of over $2000 in very nice speakers, which are currently heavily discounted. In my opinion an entry level AVR isn't going to allow the OP to truly reap the rewards of that investment.

ravaneli

you are running around my point and pulling arguments for issues that nobody is disputing. it's a common approach but can't fool many. Nobody is disputing that the receiver may blow, or that the signal may be distorted. The only disagreement was whether this receiver can damage those speakers, and if you yourself read the article that you link me to you will see that there needs to be overheating to physical damage can be caused. Those 'max power handling 300W' specs are exactly for that, they tell you what load a speaker can take. If you have a receiver that can do 300W per channel, the speakers should be able to handle the power even if you turn the receiver all the way up. If you put speakers with lower impedance, current will increase and you will push the receiver beyond it's rated power. It will then clip, and the output to the speaker will be more than 300W, which was supposed to be a max for the receiver. Then you damage the speaker, and perhaps the receiver in the process.
Distortion does not matter. A speaker cannot detect perfect distortion from perfectly undistorted sound. That's bull that pseudo audio authorities like the ones frequenting this joint propagate. You send power to the coil and it moves it back and forth. Whether the resulting sound sounds good to you or whether it is true to the original source is really irrelevant to the physical destruction of the speaker. You need to overheat the speaker by overpowering it if you want to destroy it. It is preposterous to say that low power is the problem; tonyb, should have his 'scholar' license revoked. Low power is not the problem for anything, you driving higher current through the receiver is the problem, but just for the receiver. You can do no damage to speakers with such large power handling and thermal capacity with this weak receiver. Just.. physics doesn't work like that.

Alright, I will let you have the last word here, because I am posting nothing else on this. I don't think it really matters whether I'm right, some people never concede own mistakes, and it just so happens that it's the people that are quick to talk down to other people.

tonyb

ravaneli wrote: »

OK, can any of you condescending omnipotent scholars explain to me why am I wrong?

and it just so happens that it's the people that are quick to talk down to other people.

Oh, the beauty of it all.

Look chief, read up some, educate yourself a tad before blowing smoke. Get a grasp on distortion, what causes it, how it's caused, and what gets damaged by it.

Lietuvis91

ravaneli wrote: »

now we are just making stuff up. what does that even mean? Receiver clipping..

HAHA! ROLF!

So there is so much you don't understand, yet, you will call B.S. on the things we say... ok... :rolleyes:

Guys, you all know that the best way to learn is the school of the hard knocks. Your own mistakes are the best teachers...

I say we nod and smile ...

In fact, I have an onkyo 608 I will sell you CHEAP! You can run a full 7 ch lsi setup to reference levels, no problem! Hit me up

brianle

Since you haven't bought the LSi speakers yet, it might be cheaper and better to get easier to drive speakers.

ken brydson

brianle wrote: »

Since you haven't bought the LSi speakers yet, it might be cheaper and better to get easier to drive speakers.

There you go with the crazy talk...:cheesygrin:

PSOVLSK

brianle wrote: »

Since you haven't bought the LSi speakers yet, it might be cheaper and better to get easier to drive speakers.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?130846-Reveiver-amps-to-go-with-LSi-system
I think he's going to go ahead and power them properly.

spphoenix

Well that heated up rather quick....

Anyway, yes! I am indeed going to power them properly (as soon as I find an amp I can stomach the price of). What's another $1000 for speakers that I can probably use for the next 10 years? And it's not like a I can't reuse the amp. Lets just say this has been a rather quick learning curve for me :redface: My apologies for taking your time but you guys have been immeasurably helpful.

I'll ask this in the other post too, but how old is too old for a used amp? The sunfire I'm looking at on audiogon was released in '96, not to say it's 16 years old but it's probably at least 10. No clue how well these things age.

Upstatemax

A good amp can age pretty well... I would look into Parasound also.

They sound great with Lsi speakers IMO. Others like Adcom, I've had no experience with them, but they are a popular, quality, budget amp also.

Unknown

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F1nut

I love how this dipsh!t keeps pulling up posts from years ago just to stir the pot. :rolleyes:

txcoastal1

nbrowser wrote: »

If ya see one on a Smart car...snap a pic and post it up...that's something I wanna see!

Here you go

ken brydson