anothor Newbie needing Amp advice

wood4sheep2

:cheesygrin: Never bought an amp in my life. I have another thread in troubleshooting working on a sound issue and realized I need an amp to power those A9 monsters sitting in my living room.
So.... to go with my system listed below... I dont want to get too expensive but people have been kind enough to recommend adcom or carver.
So.... I am curious about a couple of things.

1. bi-amping (I got schooled a little on the other thread) but my a9s and CSi A6 allow bi-amping. I am curious if I buy for instance a 5 channel amp at 200 each I could sent one to the center and use the other four for Bi-amping my a9's. Is that crazy talk? (I do have a concern how I get the signal from the reciever for each. Scared that I will give up my zone 2 I love to do it) and run my surrounds on the reciever internal amp.

2. if that above is crazy will the a9's be okay at 200 watts each if I get a 3 channel at 200 watt each or do I need to get a 300 watt for them and stay within the limit of the Csi A6 center and get a 200 watt or less single channel for that for that and again let the reciever handle the surrounds.

3. I assume also that I can control the on off of the amps with my logitech remote (it sounds like a dumb question as I am typing it :redface:)

4. cables: if I am going to this trouble then I need I assume some quality cables to connect the amp and reciever and perhaps quality speaker wires to properly handle all that power. Any suggestions on brands. I wil have to order online as I am rural in location.

Thanks so much for input and any model suggestions or other thoughts are deeply appreciated.

cfrizz

Keep it simple. One 200wpc five channel amp, hook up all 5 speakers, do NOT bi-amp, sit back and enjoy.

Amps to look at: New: Outlaw Audio and Emotiva. Used from Audiogon, Sunfire, Parasound, Rotel, Adcom, Nad, B & K etc.

Actually here ya go. http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?129790-Emotiva-XPA-5

Good amp, good price, good seller. Go for it.

wood4sheep2

cfrizz wrote: »

Keep it simple. One 200wpc five channel amp, hook up all 5 speakers

My only question about that is that the fxi a6 says 150 watts so since I dont understand much about this is that an issue?
:question:

bobsauto49

No problem at all! U cant have too many watts for speakers! Underwatting them only hurts,not overwatting!

tonyb

wood4sheep2 wrote: »

My only question about that is that the fxi a6 says 150 watts so since I dont understand much about this is that an issue?
:question:

Not an issue at all. Think of an amplifier as horsepower in a cars engine. The engine isn't delivering all of that horsepower at once when you turn it on. But when you need to go 0-60 in 12 seconds, the power is there, much like the quick transcient responses in music or big dynamic movie soundtracks.

Stilly74

I hear all the time not to bi-amp. Well I have a onkyo reciever and a Emotiva xpa 5. I use one ch to power my center and the other four to bi-amp my Rti 12's. I like it.tried running one ch to each speaker and for my ears I prefer splitting the power to top and bottom on the speakers.
Bottom line trust your ears, not what someone else is telling you.
I know already this is going to stir the pot, but I never have played follow the leader.

tonyb

Not really stirring any pot Stilly, bi-amping with an amplifier is totaly within reason. The stirring of the pot comes in at bi-amping with just a receiver.

obieone

Look for a couple of used Outlaw monoblocks (M2200), get a pr. of AudioQuest Sidewinders, hook them up to the A9's.
Everything else can come off the 1121-k.

wood4sheep2

Okay... I went with the emotiva xpa-5 and await its arrival. I also got some Blue Jean cables coming my way to connect.
Thansk for the advice and help. Cant wait to see how that does.

cfrizz

Congrats, and keep us posted when you've had time to listen.

michael1947

Please report back soon with your hook-ups and all. I use an XPA-5 via an Onkyo TXNR 708 in my main HT. I run 2 XPA channels to each of my SDS-SRS mains and the other (5th) XPA channel to my center...which at present is a pair of Klipsch centers whose numbers I cannot remember...but sounds REALLY good. On this rig I use Signal Cable Classics for the front and the rears I use some Home Depot 14guage ofc copper, almost a hundred feet to wire them puppies up. Have fun.

michael1947

For TonyB...I have a receiver that I'm about to do some experimenting with. It's a HK 7200 and put outs 110 wpc but tested out at 163 wpc and I think about 75 or 56 amps per with all channels driven. I'm gonna try to fire up at least 4 and maybe more channels to see what it might do. It will run 4 ohm speakers all day and I will first try it on some LSI-9's and then move on to some RTI A9's. My ultimate intention is to see if it will run happily with a Parasound HCA 2200, probably for the lower units and maybe multiple channels from the HK for the uppers. I just don't know but it will be interesting. Will be a couple of weeks yet.

tonyb

Michael, experiment as you wish, nothing wrong with that, it's how we learn. But your a tad off on the amps the receiver puts out. No receiver puts out 75 amperes, none, thats seperate amp territory and a good amp none the less. You may be looking at something different in the specs.

Inspector 24

Here's my newbie thread on Bi-amping the A9's, some really good info in there to consider:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?129691-RTiA9-Bi-Amping

I've ran them off a Parasound HCA-1206 with 135wpc and they sounded awesome! Easily beat the '140wpc' put out by my Yamaha AVR. Currently they're running off a Parasound HCA-2003, 200wpc. Slight, but definite upgrade over the 1206, biggest difference was a little more resolution in the bass, Audioslave bass guitar riffs stand out more.

wood4sheep2

Okay,
Emotiva arrives thursday.
I have been very happy with my vsx-1121 till this moment.
I really felt with an amp all would be fine until I talked to Emotiva today and found that they use a 12v trigger to turn on and off the amp and the Pioneer vsx-1121 left that feature out althought the back of that thing is packed with more features than you can imagine. It has Ir control for seperate Pioneer and non pioneer but not a 12v trigger.

So everything will run on my harmony remote except the amp.

Pioneers solve was to upgrade to at least their vsx-53 so I still get icontrolav for ipad (which I love and zone 2)
I just got the reciever so I hate that idea. Money has been flying buying the speakers,amp and receiver so I gotta pause with bigger purchases.

So.... either I leave the amp powered on all the time cause noone in the family will get the turn it on thing or is there some not too expensive thing I can pick up that can cause the amp to power on and off by way of the remote?
Thanks for any help. I am feeling dumb right now.

PSOVLSK

I think I have a solution for you, but let me do a little research.

Never mind. Looks like your AVR doesn't have plug ins on the back. They make a cable that plugs into the back of your AVR so that when you power on the AVR the amp comes on. It's possible there is something similar to the cable I'm talking about that works via remote.

pyrocyborg

There is some Infrared receiver/relay/control bpx with a 12v trigger output expecially made for this... I think, but I can't remember any name.

There are some outlets which are connected with a similar device... but I don't think it would power the amp if it has a standy option.

wood4sheep2

PSOVLSK wrote: »

I think I have a solution for you, but let me do a little research.

Never mind. Looks like your AVR doesn't have plug ins on the back. They make a cable that plugs into the back of your AVR so that when you power on the AVR the amp comes on. It's possible there is something similar to the cable I'm talking about that works via remote.

Dude.. thanks so much for thinkin on this I didnt want to bother you. :-) what is the cable power on thing you are talkin about? cause all I care about is the amp going on when the avr goes on and off when off. If it uses the ir control jack on the back the issue is that the emotiva guy says that is ir signal and so it pulses which is not good for the trigger electronics in the emotiva. If it doesnt pulse then that would be cool but it supposedly does.

wood4sheep2

would something like this do it and if so anyone know how to set it up?
here is one on ebay for reasonable price
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380414640879+&catId=293&item=380414640879

PSOVLSK

wood4sheep2 wrote: »

would something like this do it and if so anyone know how to set it up?
here is one on ebay for reasonable price
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380414640879+&catId=293&item=380414640879

That looks like it would work. Page 11 of the owners manual says that it "can be used to trigger
any device that requires 12VDC to be activated."

Just in case you haven't already looked at it: http://www.nilesaudio.com/docs/manuals/MSU250_manual.pdf

I can't find a link to the thing I'm talking about, but it has a wall wart that plugs into the back of the AC outlet on an AVR. I actually have one that I'm not using, but I don't think it will work for you since the Pio doesn't have outlets on the rear.

wood4sheep2

Wow!... I pulled up that manual and I would have to enter descrete codes into my Harmony. The codes are long and in hexidecimal format. Crazy. I dont even know what to think about that. I am going to cast around on the internet a little tonight and also then I would have to call the company tomorrow. I know you can teach a code but then you have to have another remote that knows the code to do that and point it towards the harmony in learn mode.

Interesting.

cstmar01

you could just stand up and go turn the amp on each time you want to listen.

I do this all the time. Never had an issue. Only expense is that I have to stand up and walk about 5ft to the amp. Depending on your placement (which I hope you give the thing some air to breathe as regardless it still does warm up and no amp should be enclosed at least not without some sort of fan on it), you should be able to do the same I would figure.

cfrizz

Or you can just leave it on all the time. It won't hurt anything, since if there is no signal it goes into standby mode. Most do these days. As soon as it gets a signal it wakes up. I have my prepro set to turn on the radio which will wake up the amp, then I switch it to cd, mp3 or whatever.

wood4sheep2

cfrizz wrote: »

Or you can just leave it on all the time. It won't hurt anything, since if there is no signal it goes into standby mode. Most do these days. As soon as it gets a signal it wakes up. I have my prepro set to turn on the radio which will wake up the amp, then I switch it to cd, mp3 or whatever.

Well this and the point about walking over to turn it off are both valid but.
1. While I enjoy my toys I like to conserve where I can. Hence the recycled veggie oil vehicles we drive and the trouble I go to collecting used oil and spinning it out with a centrifuge in my garage so we can cut our dependance on oil. I have a peave about leaving things on.
2. While I enjoy my toys my kids and girlfriend do not find them amusing to deal with. The harmony remote has been essential in quieting a rebellion against my gadgets. Peace in the home. To everyone else "amp" is a four letter word.

I spoke to an engineer actually on staff at Emotiva today. Nice guy and great chat. I have to admit a lack of clarity about how the standby will work on the device. He did say that cycling an electronic device on and off was a greater wear on it than letting it run. I couldnt get a great answer from him about how much the amp would draw while not in use. He was excited about the new Emotiva pre-out he is working on and will be out soon.

Anyway.... I think the IR extender is too clumsy and actually needs some other parts to work.
In my google research I found that others are using the new smart power strips to great success by plugging the AVR into the control outlet and then pluging either a 12v wall wort into a slave outlet that powers on and off with the primary or plugging the amp directly into the slave outlet depending on their concern about such matters.

I like this solution because we are wanting to start using these smart outlets anyway to cut the power usage from constantly running inverters in all sorts of cellphone, iphone, ipad etc chargers or other such devices.

So I see no harm in ordering one of these and if I dont like it here we will use it to conserve power elsewhere. Somehow I like the idea of calling the engineer at Emotiva one last time tommorrow and see if he likes the wall wort 12v idea or the direct on and off slave outlet idea. By the way he strongly warned against using the control/ IR output jack even though it would work it would over time damage the trigger electronics in the Emotiva.

Thanks for all the input. I will post how it works.

tonyb

cstmar01 wrote: »

you could just stand up and go turn the amp on each time you want to listen.
.

Yep.....works everytime and costs nothing.

Just tell the family to think of the receiver and amp as one unit, both have to be turned on. Aside from that, you have to go to the gear anyway to put in a cd or dvd manually, so not like remote capability is saving anything.

Also, be aware that whatever "smart outlet" you use, you don't want anything to restrict power in any way to the amp or receiver. Make sure they don't before buying them.

wood4sheep2

Everyone is different. I love the fact that I can sit at the table in my kitchen use my ipad to turn on the system and stream pandora or music to the kitchen and living room as needed and turn it all off with a button control volume etc. I also know my family are bad at turning things off.

I spoke to the Emotiva guy yesterday and he was completely against using the amp plugged right into the smart strip slave plug. He completely like the idea of the wall wort with 12v at 500 milliamp to use as a trigger.

So... the Emotiva came yesterday and that set up works flawlessly with the smart strip and trigger wall wort and also the strip does something I have always wanted which is powers off the Blu-Ray, Apple TV and WII and Sub and TV so that in "green" fashion I cut down on wasted energy.

Happy Solution!!!
My cables come in today and I will fire it all up in full after work.

michael1947

I like your ideas on saving energy.

wood4sheep2

Okay... what a fun weekend! I ran the Set up on the reciever fresh and tested out settings and found that with a few adjustments I was off and running.

Thanks to all for help and to PSOVLSK for an enjoyable process of buying the amp. Hope your new one is a good fit for you!

I plugged in the amp and happened to turn on the tv first. It was on the news and I was shocked at the clarity of what I was hearing. A senator was talking from capital building and I could hear the footsteps and echoes and people in detail behind him, wispers and paper shuffling. Wow!. It was crazy.

I tried music first and tried out a smattering of Queen, Led Zepplin, Sade, and a few others. So much clarity and detail. Such a nice wall of sound. I had a great time. I think my favorite was Queen and Led Zepplin. Laying back on the couch and listening to "babe I am going to leave you" was breathtaking. So much detail so much music. Good stuff.

Then over the weekend I tried all my top favorite movie scenes for sound in blu-ray
Pod races from Star Wars, Opening scene from " a new hope" Star Trek the new movie opening scenes, The Dark Knight, LOTR Fellowship opening scenes, House of Flying Daggers inthe uncompressed PCM, plus in honor of the weekend I picked up the Matrix Blu-Ray collection as my girlfriend loves that movie and my daughter has never seen it somehow.
We watched the matrix in full and enjoyed it so much.

My observatins at the end of the weekend.
1. Much happier when I set the L/R speakers to large.
2. Ummm.... the lower sounds are much better on the a9's than my sub woofer ( I am sure this speaks to the subwoofer but such purchases are way down the road. Breather time). I was having trouble with the low end sounds being distracting. I tried adjustments on the sub but when I tried just disabling it all got better, much better.
3. My surrounds love the amp. So much better sound from them so much clearer so much better field of sound with so much more detal woven in. The xpa-5 was a great choice. All the speakers are amp happy.
4. Detail, Clarity is so much better. The warmth and woven nature of the sound field is vastly improved. In theater mode it is a whole room feeling a field in the whole room. special effects play across the room more convincingly. In music mode the instruments are more crisp and defined. The layers of details are more confident and present. So much more to hear. TV is better all the way around.
5. it solved a raspy problem that I was working on in trouble shooting. I am sure that the better purer sound eliminated some discordant issues I was hearing.
6. I am sure that in the future I could improve further with a receiver upgrade but I feel that It is pretty impressive the way it is.
7. I noticed a vast difference in sound quality based on recordings. Older music that was flatly translated to CD did not play out well and showed up weaknesses so much! Good CD's sounded awesome. The remastered Beatles was so much better than the older CD's. TV with bad audio is much more apparent. lower quality theater sound is much more apparent. I dont mind this. It is a sign of the system working so much better.
8. I think any final breakin will be quicker with the better powered amps.
It was a fun first weekend. I tried not be too obsessed with it and managed to put in enough time on it and still enjoy the awesome weather this weekend.

Thanks again to all!

cfrizz

Congrats. You now know/hear the difference a powerful amp makes. My guess is that you will never go back to just having a receiver drive your speakers!

Enjoy your system.

unc2701

Your emotiva can be triggered with as little as 5v. Use the 5v extension output on the lower left side of your pioneer to trigger the emotiva on and off. You'll need a 3.5mm plug on the emotiva side; the tip should have the voltage. No clue whether the pin or shield on the pioneer side delivers the voltage- you'll need a voltmeter for that.

wood4sheep2

unc2701 wrote: »

Your emotiva can be triggered with as little as 5v. Use the 5v extension output on the lower left side of your pioneer to trigger the emotiva on and off. You'll need a 3.5mm plug on the emotiva side; the tip should have the voltage. No clue whether the pin or shield on the pioneer side delivers the voltage- you'll need a voltmeter for that.

To be clear the Engineer I talked to at Emotiva warned firmly against using this port as it is designed for IR. While the voltage is adequate and might functin in the short term in the long term He said it would damage the trigger in the Emotiva. The reason is that the design for IR will pulse the voltage in the way the IR pulses and that would be sent along as well as a voltage pulse to the trigger and would cause failure issues. He was very clear to use the method that I have as a the "safe" method.