So you are curious the difference(s) a set of cables makes for the AI-1 Dreadnought?*
headrott
Posts: 5,496
I just finished installing a second Cardas CCRR (Rhodium plated) binding post to make a connection for the "blade" portion of the "pin/blade" jack on the back of my SDA 2.3TL's. This was to compliment a Cardas CCRR binding post I had installed a couple years ago for the "pin" connection. At that time (a couple years ago) I had simply intended to use the "blade" connection on the "pin/blade" connector and the single binding post I connected for the "pin". I had contacted PNF Audio about making some speaker cables to use for connecting my newly built AI-1 Dreadnought to (at that time 3.1TL's) and currently my 2.3TL's. The binding post (or pin) connection on the cables was a set of Kimber Kable Postmaster PM-25 spades. The "blade" connector took more thought to come up with an alternative connector to put into the original "blade" connection on the back of the speakers. We ended up agreeing on using a connector from a male IEC plug made of pure copper. I had read good reviews of PNF speaker cables and the fact they agreed to tailor the cables to what I needed helped me decide to use thier cables for the AI-1.
I recieved the PNF cables and hooked them up to (at the time my 3.1TL's) and my newly built AI-1 Dreadnought per Ray's (DarqueKnight's) instructions. After a little break in time of the transformer, I found the SDA sound to be phenominal! The sound stage was big, the depth was very nice and the imaging was very good. I was very satisfied with what I heard.
Now, fast forward two years after buying some 2.3TL's, MIT Shotgun S3 balanced interconnects and speaker cables and building my own DAC and rolling enough tubes between the DAC and my BAT VK-3i pre-amp to fill a very large box. I finally (so far) settled on some 1959 Mullard long plate 12AX7's for the DAC and some 1963 and 1964 Amperex 7308 (made in USA) tubes. After finishing replacing the Sonicap/Mills combo on the crossovers with the ClarityCap ESA/Duelund Cast combo in the the 2.3TL's I decided to try swapping speaker cables for my AI-1 Dreadnought SDA interceonnect. I had been using some Alpha-Core Goertz Python MI-2 speaker cables before replacing them with the MIT Shotgun S3 speaker cables and the Python MI-2's were just laying around. This is what inspired me to install that second binging post for the "blade" connection talked about above and replace the PNF Audio custom made speaker cables talked about above with the Alpha-Core Goertz Python MI-2 speaker cables. After connecting everything and warming up the equipment, I sat down for a listen.
The first thing I noticed was how much wider the soundstage was using the Alpha-Core Goertz cables compared to the PNF Audio cables! The soundstage expanded literally about 4 feet! The soundstage depth also got approximately 1 foot deeper. Imaging was about 20% better (more focused) than when using the PNF Audio Cables as well. Fine detail improved by about 15% and instrument and vocals sounded properly balanced (dB levels were better between instrument and vocal "layers") better after replacing the PNF Audio cables with the Apha-Core Goertz Pythons.
I will also do a write up about the differences between the Sonicap/Mills combo on the crossovers vurses the ClarityCAP ESA/Duelund combo. I hope this little write-up helps some people out in deciding the quality of speaker cables used in thier SDA (specifically the AI-1 Dreadnaught) cable used. The differences can be pretty drastic from what I found. Larry must be in heaven using the Shotgun S3's!!:eek::cheesygrin:
Greg
*Edit: The reason I put the asterisk in the title is because really the cable itself was not the only difference in the cable set up. I also replaced the original pin/blade connector with the Cardas binding posts. Did this make a difference in what I heard? Possibly (or more likely probably) of course. How much is another story though.
I recieved the PNF cables and hooked them up to (at the time my 3.1TL's) and my newly built AI-1 Dreadnought per Ray's (DarqueKnight's) instructions. After a little break in time of the transformer, I found the SDA sound to be phenominal! The sound stage was big, the depth was very nice and the imaging was very good. I was very satisfied with what I heard.
Now, fast forward two years after buying some 2.3TL's, MIT Shotgun S3 balanced interconnects and speaker cables and building my own DAC and rolling enough tubes between the DAC and my BAT VK-3i pre-amp to fill a very large box. I finally (so far) settled on some 1959 Mullard long plate 12AX7's for the DAC and some 1963 and 1964 Amperex 7308 (made in USA) tubes. After finishing replacing the Sonicap/Mills combo on the crossovers with the ClarityCap ESA/Duelund Cast combo in the the 2.3TL's I decided to try swapping speaker cables for my AI-1 Dreadnought SDA interceonnect. I had been using some Alpha-Core Goertz Python MI-2 speaker cables before replacing them with the MIT Shotgun S3 speaker cables and the Python MI-2's were just laying around. This is what inspired me to install that second binging post for the "blade" connection talked about above and replace the PNF Audio custom made speaker cables talked about above with the Alpha-Core Goertz Python MI-2 speaker cables. After connecting everything and warming up the equipment, I sat down for a listen.
The first thing I noticed was how much wider the soundstage was using the Alpha-Core Goertz cables compared to the PNF Audio cables! The soundstage expanded literally about 4 feet! The soundstage depth also got approximately 1 foot deeper. Imaging was about 20% better (more focused) than when using the PNF Audio Cables as well. Fine detail improved by about 15% and instrument and vocals sounded properly balanced (dB levels were better between instrument and vocal "layers") better after replacing the PNF Audio cables with the Apha-Core Goertz Pythons.
I will also do a write up about the differences between the Sonicap/Mills combo on the crossovers vurses the ClarityCAP ESA/Duelund combo. I hope this little write-up helps some people out in deciding the quality of speaker cables used in thier SDA (specifically the AI-1 Dreadnaught) cable used. The differences can be pretty drastic from what I found. Larry must be in heaven using the Shotgun S3's!!:eek::cheesygrin:
Greg
*Edit: The reason I put the asterisk in the title is because really the cable itself was not the only difference in the cable set up. I also replaced the original pin/blade connector with the Cardas binding posts. Did this make a difference in what I heard? Possibly (or more likely probably) of course. How much is another story though.
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
![:\](https://forum.polkaudio.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\"){kind=small}
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee
Post edited by headrott on
Comments
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Nice write up, Greg. I'm interested in the differences you observed between the Sonicap/Mills and Clarity Cap ESA/Dueland components.
What AWG are the Goertz Alpha Core cables? And what amplifier are you using (common or non common ground)
Also, did you find that burn in of the Dreadnought improved the sound? If so, how many hours before you noticed changes?"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
drumminman wrote: »Nice write up, Greg. I'm interested in the differences you observed between the Sonicap/Mills and Clarity Cap ESA/Dueland components.
I'll do a separate write up here very soon. I do find the changes to be positive (IMO).drumminman wrote: »What AWG are the Goertz Alpha Core cables? And what amplifier are you using (common or non common ground)?
The Goertz Alpha-Core Python MI-2 speaker cables are a 10 guage cable made of pure copper. They are very nice cables and I would say about 75% to 80% as good as the MIT Shotgun S3's. Plus, they are about half the price (about $420 for terminated 12ft. cables directly from Goertz).
I am using an Aragon 8008bb amplifier to power the 2.3TL's. It is common ground, but the impedance is so high on the binding posts that the SDA's would cause the Aragon to go into protection mode over and over. I had to use the AI-1 to prevent this. So, my amp is common ground but still requires the AI-1 Dreadnought.drumminman wrote: »Also, did you find that burn in of the Dreadnought improved the sound? If so, how many hours before you noticed changes?
I did. The audio sounded smoother and sound stage expanded in width and depth after a break in period. I cannot remember for certain the amount of time it took. Partly because it was done over multiple listening sessions instead of constant burn in, and because it was about 2 years ago. I would very roughly estimate it took about 50 to 75 hours but that's very roughly estimated.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Re: burn in time, interesting. I'm in for a treat if it gets better at 75 hours. I noticed that imaging and bass response improved right away when I first put the DN in the system, and then everything sounded somehow "off". Once I hit around 15 hours it sounded great again. The DN really takes the sound to a whole new level. I'm still thinking about going with mono blocks just to get more power, but everything sounds so good right now I don't feel the need to hurry.
Re: Alpha Core cables, I've thought about doing a DIY version using the copper ribbon from an Alpha Core inductor. It'd be a cheap way to experiment.
Fred"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
How do you plan on insulating them...neatly?drumminman wrote: »Re: Alpha Core cables, I've thought about doing a DIY version using the copper ribbon from an Alpha Core inductor. It'd be a cheap way to experiment.
Fred"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
How do you plan on insulating them...neatly?
The inductors have a type of varnish or enamel on the ribbons, so I'm thinking all that's needed is a layer of insulation between the two ribbons (a piece of cotton fabric or polyethylene foam) to separate and stabilize them: ribbon/insulation/ribbon, and insert the whole thing in teflex, or if the ribbons are too wide, wrap with teflon tape.
As far as connectors, spades could be soldered on the ends, or the ends could have the enamel removed and be folded and cut into the shape of spades.
What do you think?"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
I don't recall the inductors having a varnish on them."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
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I don't recall the inductors having a varnish on them.
They have a polypropylene film that has to be scraped off before soldering:
http://www.alphacoredirect.com/contents/en-us/p442.html
I suppose it's not a varnish per se.
I'm not sure which size to try that would equal approximately 10 awg."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
I am using an Aragon 8008bb amplifier to power the 2.3TL's. It is common ground, but the impedance is so high on the binding posts that the SDA's would cause the Aragon to go into protection mode over and over. I had to use the AI-1 to prevent this. So, my amp is common ground but still requires the AI-1 Dreadnought.
Greg
Don't you mean resistance?Jeff -
That's the film the coil is wrapped in, it peels right off when you disassemble the coil. And they're only available down to 12ga.drumminman wrote: »They have a polypropylene film that has to be scraped off before soldering:
http://www.alphacoredirect.com/contents/en-us/p442.html
I suppose it's not a varnish per se.
I'm not sure which size to try that would equal approximately 10 awg."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche -
That's the film the coil is wrapped in, it peels right off when you disassemble the coil. And they're only available down to 12ga.
Hmmmmm - IIRC, when I used 'em in a Def Tech Xover rebuild several years ago I had to scrape off the clear insulation before I soldered 'em into the circuit. In any event, I suppose you could apply several coats of a clear polyurethane with a brush if necessary."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer -
Don't you mean resistance?
Damn it! I wrote impedance again! Yes, you are correct Jeff it's resistance not impedance. That's the second time I've written impedance instead of resistance.:redface:
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Fred, you can buy bulk Alpha-Core Python MI-2 cable and terminate it yourself. It'll save you some money, but may not be as cheap as one of Alph-Core's inductors. It will be the better 10ga. and also be in the better noise canceling twisted (opposed to flat) cable. Sonic Craft carries the bulk Python MI-2 cable if you are interested.
Greg
Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
"I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion."
My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....
"Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson
"Have A Little Faith! And Everything You'll Face, Will Jump From Out Right On Into Place! Yeah! Take A Little Time! And Everything You'll Find, Will Move From Gloom Right On Into Shine!"- Arthur Lee -
Fred, you can buy bulk Alpha-Core Python MI-2 cable and terminate it yourself. It'll save you some money, but may not be as cheap as one of Alph-Core's inductors. It will be the better 10ga. and also be in the better noise canceling twisted (opposed to flat) cable. Sonic Craft carries the bulk Python MI-2 cable if you are interested.
Greg
Thanks, I'll look into that."Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
