Wire / Cable Thoughts?

PrazVT

So I'm in the midst of tweaking the HT system to get the most out of the new KEFs.

As of last week:
SB Touch -> CA DacMagic: Signal Silver Res digital coax
CA DacMagic -> Pio SC 57: Signal Silver Res ICs
Pio SC 57 -> NAD M25: Signal Analog 2 (with fronts split to 2 channels each for R/L)
NAD M25 -> KEF Q900s: Signal Ultra bi-amp cables

As of this week:

SB Touch -> W4S DAC-1: Signal Silver Res digital coax
W4S DAC-1 -> Pio SC 57: Kimber Hero ICs
Pio SC 57 -> NAD M25: single Signal Silver ICs (no bi-amp)
NAD M25 -> KEF Q900s: Signal Ultra w/ 2nd run disconnected and speaker bridges closed.

Improvements?

Soundstage & imaging are much improved. Voices are squarely where the center speaker - since I changed more than one thing, I can't point to whether it was ICs or the DAC swap. Tad warmer presentation such that most recordings are near perfect treble-wise and tonally.

Temporarily, I've swapped in the Signal silver ICs for the Analog 2s in the pre -> amp leg. I'm having a harder time determining whether that has made a difference - plus I'd rather not mix ICs on that leg (center, surrounds are analog 2).

Finally I removed the passive bi-amp setup and it seems it was a waste of $$ to do it in the first place as I hear no difference (YMMV).

So I've got one or two more upgrades I want to do:

1 - upgrade the speaker cables for the Q900s only.
2 - upgrade the ICs in the pre -> amp leg. (5 of them ...or maybe just 2 for the towers?).

Budget would be ~$800 max.

Currently stuck on Kimber 8TC for wire. I enjoyed the 8TCs I had before. Was pondering looking for some used MIT Shotgun series wire but the variations confuse me. Same w/ Audioquest - too many different models for me to figure out the differences.

OR I could stick w/ the Signal Ultras if I'm getting to the point of diminishing returns...

Not sure what to look at for ICs. Thoughts on ICs that are a step above Signal Analog2s but not quite as expensive as Kimber Heros? How are the Timber and PBJ lines?

As always - sorry for the long-**** explanation, and thanks for the inputs

Praz

heiney9

The dac will likely have a larger impact on overall sound. The differences you are describing are the same types of differences I've heard swapping around dac's. The cables you are using are similar enough that I doubt such large changes can be attributed to them, but they certainly will alter the sound a little bit. When swapping things around always keep everything constant with a single variable, otherwise you have no idea what's what.

There is quite a difference between the Cambridge and W4S.

H9

PrazVT

Thanks for the feedback H9.

You are right. I did try the Heros connected to the SACD player first and heard some subtle result. But as you mentioned, swapping DACs was much much more noticeable.

I suspect you're right that any more changes will only result in subtle differences - so perhaps I'll leave the ICs alone - I have no complaints w/ the Analog2s, and since I didn't hear much difference with the signal silvers in the chain perhaps that also confirms your thoughts.

I will probably need to get new speaker cables though as I don't like the dangling ends on the bi-amp cables.

Thanks again!

PrazVT

OK - having some trouble deciding on speaker cables.

1 - Kimber 8TC as mentioned
2 - MIT Shotgun S3 (2009 model?) (8ft pair)
3 - MIT CVT2 (8ft pair)

The latter 2 are the same price on a-gon. I've been very curious about MIT cables and feel like if I'm going to spend some $$, I better choose wisely. I've heard the 8TC - didn't like 'em with the LSi9s, but they worked well w/ the RTi A7s.

Can you guys who have these two cables give me some insights into what the differences are (plus any other thoughts)?

Thanks.

Praz

PrazVT

NM - decided to go with the shotgun S3s. I'll work on matching the ICs eventually.

heiney9

Great choice. The Shotguns are very nice cables. I would never let mine out of my rig. I noticed firmer bass, taller soundstage, smoother top end and better instrument delineation. All this compared to the MIT Terminator II's I had been using both I/C's and speaker cables.

H9

PrazVT

Thanks H9 - yeah as I was searching the threads on feedback about MIT cables, I noticed you mentioned how happy you were with yours a couple of times - so that more or less convinced me! Can't wait to try 'em out.

Praz

steveinaz

Go with the Hero IC with the "standard" connectors, not WBT's...they are significantly cheaper. When I compared by 2 versions, both in .5mtr length, I could tell no difference.

I like the tonal "balance" that 8TC (and 4TC) strikes; in fact with hindsight I could have lived with 4TC just fine.

PrazVT

steveinaz wrote: »

Go with the Hero IC with the "standard" connectors, not WBT's...they are significantly cheaper. When I compared by 2 versions, both in .5mtr length, I could tell no difference.

I like the tonal "balance" that 8TC (and 4TC) strikes; in fact with hindsight I could have lived with 4TC just fine.

Yeah I ended up getting the Hero ICs with the standard Ultraplate connectors - there's no way I'm paying $100+ more for connectors. Good to know there's no noticeable difference.

As for the speaker cables - I've had the 4VS and 8TC and liked both - just wanted to try something different. Though before going this route, I was trying to figure out what I'd miss going w/ 4TC rather than 8TC. So you're saying, they're very close?

steveinaz

Veeeery close. Maybe a touch more bass depth out of 8TC---maybe placebo, I don't know for sure.

I would say that if 8TC is within your budget, go with it, if not--don't feel like 4TC will cheat you out of anything.

FWIW, 8TC = 9ga, 4TC = 12ga

I think the only difference (aside from colors) between 4VS and 4TC is copper purity. They both use the same vari-strand topolgy, so I would guess they would be nearly identical in sonics.

PrazVT

Awesome - I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm feeling the upgrade-itis w/ the LSi9s.

PrazVT

shotgun s3s are coming in Saturday - can't wait!

PrazVT

Cables are in!! They look pretty hardcore...

flyfisher

Congrats Praz.Hope you enjoy them!

PrazVT

Thanks Anthony! The cables are burning in right ..I think it's 2 days for 75% and then 2 weeks for full burn in. Looking fwd to day 2;)

PrazVT

I've got about 24 hrs of continuous break-in on these cables so far. But I can already tell that they were worth every penny (despite the ridicule I was subjected to by my cousins during poker night yesterday). I suck at explaining the differences ..but I'll mention a few things:
- Completely neutral. The Q900s have been somewhat bright (say in between LSi and RTi levels) up to this point. Now they're perfect. The cables need to burn in some more before the highs are smoothed out, but the timbre is just right.
- Cleanest sound I've ever heard. When there is music, you hear it, but behind it is just silence. It's beautiful.
- Bass is up a couple of notches. Clean, tight, punchy bass. The Q900s have awesome low end by the way, and it's just better now.

Glad I went this route!!

tonyb

Congrats man, glad your enjoying them. I do however want to point out that some think I'm full of it when I say cables can help tame those bright speaks. Your testament to that fact validates my thoughts. Don't under estimate what a good cable can do to your system.

PrazVT

Thanks tonyb. I've literally been listening to various different albums since this morning trying to refute that thought - and thus far I cannot. Especially a few recordings that are natively bright - those are the ones where you can tell right off the bat. Anyway - as I learned here from the beginning - try it yourself and then make up your mind.

steveinaz

I haven't tried the MIT's, but at more cost than my amp or pre, I just can't justify it. If they were half the price, maybe.

PrazVT

Have you looked at what Joe has on sale? Everything is close to 50% off. I ordered another set for my LSIs (cheaper avt 2s ..$300) and some ICs bc I'm so impressed.

PrazVT

Lasareath wrote: »

Congrats!

I'm at around 167 hours break in on my new pair of Shotgun S1.3 Bi-Wires.

Thanks Sal - Congrats to you too! How are you liking them?

PrazVT

steveinaz wrote: »

I haven't tried the MIT's, but at more cost than my amp or pre, I just can't justify it. If they were half the price, maybe.

Despite my earlier comment, I agree it's a steep cost either way. Are they still doing MIT cable demos here? I thought I saw something the other day - maybe that's a good way to at least see if it would be of benefit (since you're already using 8TC).

OK. coffee time.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

I haven't tried the MIT's, but at more cost than my amp or pre, I just can't justify it. If they were half the price, maybe.

Don't think of it that way. Your gear, no matter the out of pocket cost, is highly worthy of MIT's and they will make a big difference. Trust me on this, go for it if you can find a sale or a reasonable used set.

I went used and while it did take a little longer to assemble all the same i/c's and speaker cables, I am a lifetime MIT user. Fantastic results, simply fantastic.

H9

PrazVT

H9's right. The difference is just astonishing...

PrazVT

Got my CVT 2 ICs and AVt 2 speaker cables today! The CVT 2s will replace the Kimber Heros at the DAC. And the Kimber Heros and AVt 2s will go to the bedroom DAC and LSi9s.

Now in the HT, the pre -> amp section is all Analog 2 ICs, which seem to be carrying the improved signals well. But I know ideally everything in the chain should probably be MIT now. Would lesser MIT ICs suffice? I can't afford to get 5 more CVT 2s - insane.

I was thinking EXp 2s or EXp 3s? I'll probably do what you did H9 and try to find used ones if possible.