RTiA9 back fire, are they too good?

Geoff4rfc

Thought I was going to impress my wife. The two of us and our 4yr old are watching Planet 51 on bluray.

I have an Epik Empire and it intimidates my wife just a tad can easily p*ss her off if I have it dialed in too much (+7-+10).

Since my ownership of the 9's are still relatively new, I wanted to show my wife something cool, I took the sub out of the avr and set the mains to fullband (large). During the scene where the aliens are getting electrocuted inside of base #9, you could feel the action in the floor. It was awesome!!

I asked her, did you feel that? She said, yes, you turned off the sub? I said, Yes!, she says, That's just the speakers? I said, Yes!! Then she says, Wow, why do you need a sub? DOH

falconcry72

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

....Wow, why do you need a sub? DOH

Ha! That's quite a backfire!:cheesygrin:

I had a similar experience with my A9's just a few minutes ago... with the Star Wars Episode 1 pod race scene... very full, low, controlled, pressurizing bass. I had my sub off, and I'd be perfectly happy without it. When I do add it back in, I'll be crossing it over between 30 - 40 hz.

tonyb

Kinda did the same here. Spent the coin on 2 good front speakers that can go low, real low, and forget the sub. Throw that cost into front speakers. I also run a 4.0 system, no center too. I'm happy, the wifes happy, and the world turns.

Theheadsn

hey you wanna sell that epik?

tonyb

DSkip wrote: »

Im debating the 4.0 route (technically 4.2 with the RT3000p's). I picked up a CS400i after running without one for a while and I don't know that I like it as much as I did without it.

See now, I was in that camp too. Not saying a center or a sub doesn't have a place in a HT setup, because they do. I wanted a better stereo pair up front so allocating the coin from a center and sub enabled me to do so.

I already mentioned some of my background with Polk speakers. My last foray was an SRT setup, Srt center, RT3000P's as rears and FX1000's as back surrounds. Thats alot of speakers. HT sounded good, music not so much. My current 4.0 system is as good if not better on HT, and miles better in the music department. No regrets at all. Now, this is obviously not everyones cup of tea, but all I'm saying is give it a whirl, you may like it, you may not. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Monster Jam

While floorstanders can obviously pump all of the bass you could desire in a traditional 2-channel stereo mode, note that the ".1" (or .2, etc) of a digital multi-channel sound mix is not necessarily a redundant channel.

Stated differently, there are signals sent to only the .1 (sub) channel that are NOT sent to other speakers.

Obviously you can live without this additional speaker, BUT if you intend to hear a movie (or other multi-channel mix) the way it was intended, then having the sub is a must.

leroyjr1

tonyb wrote: »

See now, I was in that camp too. Not saying a center or a sub doesn't have a place in a HT setup, because they do. I wanted a better stereo pair up front so allocating the coin from a center and sub enabled me to do so.

I already mentioned some of my background with Polk speakers. My last foray was an SRT setup, Srt center, RT3000P's as rears and FX1000's as back surrounds. Thats alot of speakers. HT sounded good, music not so much. My current 4.0 system is as good if not better on HT, and miles better in the music department. No regrets at all. Now, this is obviously not everyones cup of tea, but all I'm saying is give it a whirl, you may like it, you may not. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

What speakers are you currently running?

tonyb

leroyjr1 wrote: »

What speakers are you currently running?

These

redskins4ever81

I also just recently purchased the RtiA9 and am blown away by them. all of my freinds come over and cant believe it when i turn my subwoofers off and only have the the Rt's playing and on top of that i am seriously under powering them.

Geoff4rfc

Hey redskins, welcome to the forum!

Congrats on your recent purchase. One thing I've noticed is the A9's love power. I started mine out with a 200wpc amp and recently switched them to a 300wpc amp and sound a little less harsh when playing music. Great speaker.

photocrazy

Monster Jam wrote: »

While floorstanders can obviously pump all of the bass you could desire in a traditional 2-channel stereo mode, note that the ".1" (or .2, etc) of a digital multi-channel sound mix is not necessarily a redundant channel.

Stated differently, there are signals sent to only the .1 (sub) channel that are NOT sent to other speakers.

Obviously you can live without this additional speaker, BUT if you intend to hear a movie (or other multi-channel mix) the way it was intended, then having the sub is a must.

But I guess, when setup as a 5.0, AVR downmixes the .1 channel and sends it to front speakers right?

Sherardp

Dual subs here with RTi12s, and since they can dig low on there own I run my crossover at 50Hz on the Pioneer SC07. I have them properly powered with a D-Sonic Magnum 1000S @ 525 wpc x2 and they take it all pretty well.

mufsoman

Ok guys, I've read this before, that the Rti12's can put out some serious bass...and I believe you all. However, I've tried the "turn off the sub and set the towers to full" thing, and I don't get anywhere near good bass output from the 12's alone. As you can see from my sig, I've got the 12's powered by the Rotel at 200wpc. Is that not enough? Is it speaker wire or IC' quality? Or the size of the room with >5000 cubic feet????

Geoff4rfc

mufsoman wrote: »

Ok guys, I've read this before, that the Rti12's can put out some serious bass...and I believe you all. However, I've tried the "turn off the sub and set the towers to full" thing, and I don't get anywhere near good bass output from the 12's alone. As you can see from my sig, I've got the 12's powered by the Rotel at 200wpc. Is that not enough? Is it speaker wire or IC' quality? Or the size of the room with >5000 cubic feet????

It's none of that. It's your subs. No speaker is going to match the LFE output as your monster SVS x 2 set up, just as my A9's are never going to compete with my Epik Empire.

The point of this thread was to point out that the LFE output of the A9's was so impressive, that you could feel it through the floor during one particular scene of a certain movie. As to which my wife was so impressed, she started questioning why I even needed a sub.........what does she know anyway?

Sherardp

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

It's none of that. It's your subs. No speaker is going to match the LFE output as your monster SVS x 2 set up, just as my A9's are never going to compete with my Epik Empire.

The point of this thread was to point out that the LFE output of the A9's was so impressive, that you could feel it through the floor during one particular scene of a certain movie. As to which my wife was so impressed, she started questioning why I even needed a sub.........what does she know anyway?

Your point is valid. The PB12/plus 2 is a beast.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Grjkl_bZJqE&quot; frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Shadow_asp

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

The point of this thread was to point out that the LFE output of the A9's was so impressive, that you could feel it through the floor during one particular scene of a certain movie. As to which my wife was so impressed, she started questioning why I even needed a sub.........what does she know anyway?

In my house its the other way around. My girlfriend was the first to point out that the dot above the "I" was missing when one of the 500w Sunfire amps in my AR-1 speakers died. I set out and bought a Velo DD12+. She is happy now
Now if only I could convince her I am missing something in the lower mid-bass and that something like the RTI A7 and relating surrounds will fix that :cheesygrin:

tonyb

Absolutely guys, a good sub will knock the snot out of a speaker in the lower regions, notice I said a "good" sub. A mediocre sub and it could be a toss up. Of coarse we are talking movies with alot of low end that is purposely designed to draw attention to itself.

Music is another story, for me anyway. I don't like a low end that draws too much attention to itself in music playback and would rather have a tower that does bass well. For me it becomes part of the front stage rather than more localized by a sub. Yeah, I know, a properly integrated sub wouldn't/shouldn't be localized and would be seemless if done right. Maybe so, just a matter of preference I guess. I would also assume if hip hop and rap is your genre, a sub is probably a must have.

leroyjr1

mufsoman wrote: »

Ok guys, I've read this before, that the Rti12's can put out some serious bass...and I believe you all. However, I've tried the "turn off the sub and set the towers to full" thing, and I don't get anywhere near good bass output from the 12's alone. As you can see from my sig, I've got the 12's powered by the Rotel at 200wpc. Is that not enough? Is it speaker wire or IC' quality? Or the size of the room with >5000 cubic feet????

I'd be willing to bet its the eq on your Pioneer. When I owned the A9's with my elite I could never get that slam out of it. Threw a pre amp in the mix and it was a huge difference, I had chest pounding bass/midbass.

Shadow_asp

tonyb wrote: »

Music is another story, for me anyway. I don't like a low end that draws too much attention to itself in music playback and would rather have a tower that does bass well.

While I agree I have yet to see a pair of speakers that I can afford that does bass that well for my ears. In regards to music I look at a sub as a "cheap" extension to the main speakers.
Come to think of it... the sub is an extension to all the speakers when watching movies, but then its a necessity.
I havent heard the really really really expensive ones, but the JBL K2 speakers are way out of my league and even they lack <30Hz.
I can understand that people adjust their subs too high. They paid for them adn would like to hear them. I also tried my Velo DD12 a couple of weeks back. Never got it to move though (but alot of other things did :cheesygrin: ). Now it's pretty transparent when I listen to music. When watching movies its a little more noticeable but nothing that detracts from the overall experience. If anything it dots the "I" when called upon.

tonyb

I hear ya, matter of preference is all. It helps in my case, that my speakers do great bass into the 20 hz region, even lower depending.

cr136124

Where did you guys buy your RTI A9? They are out of stock in several places. Even Polk doesn't have them?

SRTer

leroyjr1 wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet its the eq on your Pioneer. When I owned the A9's with my elite I could never get that slam out of it. Threw a pre amp in the mix and it was a huge difference, I had chest pounding bass/midbass.

This is the truth! I have had two Pioneer Elite AVR's (VXS-23 and SC-35) which removed bass from my RTi A9's after the auto calibration. After I adjusted the EQ to my to different kinds of music with the speakers set to LARGE, I was more than happy with the bass output. Secondly, adding the SC-35 ICE amps then 200 watt Adcom, the bass is room shaking with out the sub. i only turn it on for others who come to visit.

True, the LFE channel has specific bass information which MAY not be represented in the mains, but how much bass you really need? With running all my speakers LARGE, my old windows rattle in the frames. RTi A9's and RTi A7's.

Florida_Gator

I'm sure the bass from high-end, large fronts (Rti A9, etc.) is great.

You know what's better? Those large fronts plus a sub!
:cheesygrin:

photocrazy

SRTer wrote: »

True, the LFE channel has specific bass information which MAY not be represented in the mains,

Please correct me if iam wrong. I am under the impression that AVR downmixes LFE channel and sends it to mains, if subwoofer is not present during speaker set up and room eq calibration.

photocrazy

SRTer wrote: »

This is the truth! I have had two Pioneer Elite AVR's (VXS-23 and SC-35) which removed bass from my RTi A9's after the auto calibration. After I adjusted the EQ to my to different kinds of music with the speakers set to LARGE, I was more than happy with the bass output.

My vsx-1325 pulled down 63hz by 3db during auto calib. I had to push it up to get the bass I wanted.

Geoff4rfc

photocrazy wrote: »

Please correct me if iam wrong. I am under the impression that AVR downmixes LFE channel and sends it to mains, if subwoofer is not present during speaker set up and room eq calibration.

That sounds right to me.

gp4jesus

photocrazy wrote: »

Please correct me if iam wrong. I am under the impression that AVR downmixes LFE channel and sends it to mains, if subwoofer is not present during speaker set up and room eq calibration.

You are correct IF you set fronts* to large.
* according to the Rotel 10XX manuals

A side to "no sub listening/evaluation:" broken-in 'A7s paired w/the right amp are no slouch!
Cheers tony