Education

ryanjoachim

The bible, if read literally, is rife with concepts and ideas that are racist and sexist. Not exactly a shining example of "proper" morals.

But enough of that...
I'm pretty sure the title and theme of this thread is "Education", as in the educational system...lets try to keep religion out of this.

nooshinjohn

Nobody is talking about religion or the bible here. Lack of a moral foundation is why OWS dirtbags could be allowed to speak to kids at a school that is so obviously performing so well. :rolleyes: That one parent called them out on this is appalling. The entire community should stand together and put a stop to this.

deronb1

Parents. Parents. Parents. The underlying theme behind every unsuccessful student (except for some kind of disability) is parenting. Governemt policy is reactionary to the current success of students AS A WHOLE. It has to be that way for equality. Does it make sense? No

We, as a society, are also so sidetracked and distracted by B.S. more than ever. Look at technology today. Makes a parents and teachers job even tougher to keep kids engaged in learning. This technology means big bucks for business however and THAT is and will always be priority one.

sucks2beme

Home school isn't often the answer. Some do it ok. Many more are horrible at it.
A normal public school (not Dallas, that's a zoo) will do just fine.
Push your kids, and the result will be fine. We have a LOT of HS AP classes
that count for college credit. There's a program for the really good students to take
part or all of their senior year at a college for credit!
As long as you're not ducking gunfire in the hallways, most schools provide the water.
We just need to get the horse to drink. If the "nerds" were treated half as well as the jocks,
we would be miles ahead. Many HS students are afraid to appear too smart.
A quick look at movies and tv shows we don't push being good in school.
We push being "cool". And that's what we get.

ken brydson

sofia23f reported

SDA1C

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Just one... My heroes walked on the Moon. This generation is making heroes of those that crap on police cars and rape women in tents on the public square. Nice that they still teach morals in school.:rolleyes:

Wait a sec... morals tend to come from the very Judeo-Christian beliefs that have been banned from school. At least there is enough funding for a first rate sex ed program. At least when they commit rate, they will know what they're doing.:evil:

Sorry John, Morals come from up bringing and family values regardless of religion. I think you sort of missed the mark there. Oh wait weren't we just dropping our kids off and and blaming someone else for theire issues in stupidity? Now we are all concerned with it.

At least the parent is paying attention to something. Wonder how many saw the flier and didn't give a $hit enough about their kids education to bring it to light.

ryanjoachim

I've got 2 years before my son starts school, and 3 before my daughter. I've been giving some thought to private schools, but I have yet to find one nearby that isn't a religious one.

I have no problem with religion, but I don't believe in the church. I would rather let my children decide for themselves as they grow up whether or not to choose a religion.

But yeah...I work in the public school system, and most of the teachers I know try their hardest every day to get their students to retain at least a little knowledge. And while I sincerely appreciate them and the work they do, I see first-hand how little money is coming into these schools. Average class size at my school is 29:1. Some classes are 35:1.

The budget for this district has been reduced by 30% in the last 4 years. That means less classes, less teachers, less supplies...

That does not make for a great learning environment.

SDA1C

1 less administrator would give 4 teachers a salary Just sayin... The name of that app is "Skyward" it is a district wide software program. If you are interested I would check the District PTA board for details.

sucks2beme

School is what it is because we are more concerned how the football team is doing rather than
how the grades are going.
Japanese schools are the other extreme, a real meat grinder. But you want better students-
demand more from them. Many more will fail a grade. You don't make Marines by babying them.
Same goes for good students.

VR3

I was proud to know I got all of them right!

But hey, what do you expect from a country who has a President that thinks there is 57 states?

SDA1C

Well put Dskip. I have one issue that is more factual than not. The universities though skeptical will not hesitate to admit a home-school if the $ is right. It is still up to the student to continue and excel at his/her chosen path to be able to continue past associates.

They will take the coin and see if you can keep up regardless.

inspiredsports

DSkip wrote: »

Teachers can only work with what they're given. You can blame a few, but you can't blame them all. Its like blaming an EMT for not being able to resuscitate someone with a bullet hole to the head.

That's a ludicrous analogy unless you live in a border town flooded with illegal immigrant children who don't belong here anyway and refuse to learn English.

You can teach a child with an IQ of 50 the proper answers to the questions the students in the video were unable to answer.

My wife worked for me for a decade in the private sector before going back to teaching in 2008 so she has a different perspective than her co-babysitters. She's come home every day for 5 years relaying stories about the lazy, greedy, incompetent, clocking-watching, entitlement demanding, teach to the lowest-common-denominator staff at her school.

Unions and greed have turned out a class of so-called teachers that have evolved into little more than overpaid childcare providers over the past 40 years.

SDA1C

inspiredsports wrote: »

That's a ludicrous analogy unless you live in a border town flooded with illegal immigrant children who don't belong here anyway and refuse to learn English.

You can teach a child with an IQ of 50 the proper answers to the questions the students in the video were unable to answer.

My wife worked for me for a decade in the private sector before going back to teaching in 2008 so she has a different perspective than her co-babysitters. She's come home every day for 5 years relaying stories about the lazy, greedy, incompetent, clocking-watching, entitlement demanding, teach to the lowest-common-denominator staff at her school.

Unions and greed have turned out a class of so-called teachers that have evolved into little more than overpaid childcare providers over the past 40 years.

Interesting Point of view. Can't say I agree but I must admit ...I don't have a 3rd grade education either so....

deronb1

Unions and greed have turned out a class of so-called teachers that have evolved into little more than overpaid childcare providers over the past 40 years.[/QUOTE]

That is not a fair statement. Yes, many teachers should not be teaching, but there are lazy dolts in every profession. Without Unions, teachers pay would be even worse than it is now. Who would even go into a profession that requires a tremendous amount of education, making half of what some dropout jaggoff car salesman makes?

tommyboy

DSkip wrote: »

The point of the analogy is, if the student doesn't want to learn, no matter WHAT the reason is, said student just isn't going to learn. There might be the rare occurrence that you reach that child and get something to click, but there has to be some crack in the shell that you can penetrate. The analogy still stands for your wife and her co-workers though. The student has to be willing for anything to get accomplished, whether the teacher is an "educator" or a "babysitter". There is nothing ludicrous about the statement, it just might not apply wholly to the situations she has experienced.

To show the logic:

*If you have a bullet hole to the head, chances are very slim an EMT can resuscitate you.
*If the student is unwilling to learn, chances are very slim the teacher will be able to teach said student.

I could go in deeper with my thoughts about teaching to the LCF and that whole mess but it isn't worth it. I will say in addition to my second post that, IMO, a strong school will strike a certain balance between the good teachers and the good mentors. You have to have your great educators, but you also have to have those who can inspire. Ideally you want both of those in every teacher you have, but that just isn't going to happen. A good teacher will be strong in one or the other, or decent in both categories. Your "teacher of the year" caliber will be strong in both.

I guess I can show an example of this. Up until 5th grade, I went to a private school (Catholic school:sad:). I hated it and half of it was draining Religion down my throat but my grades were good. But then I switched to a public city school and while it was less strict per se, I wouldn't say the teachers were "worse", it was the attitudes of the students that was the biggest difference. By the time I was going through 8th grade, I had pretty much dumbed myself down to fit in. The kids just didn't care and you were made fun of if you did. My mom tried her hardest to get me back where I was, but all that did was get me by passing, not caring

My freshman year of high school though my mom moved me out of the city schools and into a "higher class" suburban neighborhood. Here the attitude was COMPLETELY different from a city school. And once again I was the odd man out. My pretending like I was a stupid idiot put me behind in schooling where kids there actually cared and I was behind for most of high school thanks to this.(I had to make it all up in college since you can't just start out engineering straight out of the dumb math class).

So I guess my point is, peer pressure is the most important thing when your that age, and if you think one teacher is going to change that you are kidding yourself. Why there's this difference in peer pressure in two different area is debatable. My opinion though is everyone in the richer area knew their life was going somewhere.. They knew they could go to college (and not have to pay for it thanks to their parents). In city schools, some (not all obviously) look at their parents and where they are at in their life and expect their life to be the same.

tonyb

I think generally speaking, a teacher doesn't go into the profession without a solid desire to teach, to try and make a difference in a childs life. Thats how they start out anyway. I believe the constant battles with administrators, parents, growing class sizes, wears them down over time until they become clock watchers, do what you need to do to get by, types of teachers. Exceptions of coarse apply. They are driven into the dirt to be all the same, teach the same, they have been given boundaries to work within, while being asked to produce results, pass kids that are not worthy, while being dumped on by administrators above them, and from parents below. They get grief from all sides. Is it no wonder then they have become careless robots ? They soon realize their dreams of making a difference now comes with one hand tied behind their back, and 200 lbs of weight on their shoulders. It is my belief from being in buisness my whole life, is that you have to empower people to adjust, make changes, if you want results. Not every class is the same, not all students are the same.

I think everyone knows where I stand on the union issue, and I'm a union guy myself, for how much longer though, I dunno. When you have the head of the NEA, the head mind you, saying that when kids start paying union dues, thats when they will put the kids interest first, that pretty much spells it out right there.

cfrizz

Excellent posts Tommy, and Tony.

SDA1C

tonyb wrote: »

I think everyone knows where I stand on the union issue, and I'm a union guy myself, for how much longer though, I dunno. When you have the head of the NEA, the head mind you, saying that when kids start paying union dues, thats when they will put the kids interest first, that pretty much spells it out right there.

What?! in the news letter? Where did you see/hear that Tonyb?

sucks2beme

DSkip wrote: »

No doubt someone, anyone can memorize trivia. That's not teaching.

I had a number of teachers that believed in repetition. I'm talking about teachers from half a century ago,
many that had already been teaching 20 years.That's why there's homework. Repeat it enough times,
and you won't forget. That's basic education. Then at some point they built on those basics and you learn
to examine things deeper and where to get answers on your own. Modern students see no point in repetition
and with the internet prefer to google rather than think for themselves.
I spent a lot of time reading. That was pushed hard both for school and leisure time.
Few modern kids(or even adults) read books. The newspaper is almost dead. That's a shame.
That online crap is hardly readable, and the price of the Dallas morning news has gotten pricey.
I'm a relic, and now am at the point I understand all those things my father told me when I was a kid.
Schools have become big business, with highly paid managers. And they now have all the faults
that come with big business. I think the best thing that could happen is for school districts to be
broken back down into smaller ones that are more responsive to what their main objective should be.

inspiredsports

DSkip wrote: »

No doubt someone, anyone can memorize trivia. That's not teaching. At any rate, that's not the point of the analogy. You might have unions up there, but down here we don't. I won't pretend to know how that affects teachers because I've never experienced it. What surprised me about this thread is that it didn't immediately get fingers pointing to the teachers like most of these topics generally do. That pains me to no end and I'm thrilled that it didn't happen.

The point of the analogy is, if the student doesn't want to learn, no matter WHAT the reason is, said student just isn't going to learn. There might be the rare occurrence that you reach that child and get something to click, but there has to be some crack in the shell that you can penetrate. The analogy still stands for your wife and her co-workers though. The student has to be willing for anything to get accomplished, whether the teacher is an "educator" or a "babysitter". There is nothing ludicrous about the statement, it just might not apply wholly to the situations she has experienced.

To show the logic:

*If you have a bullet hole to the head, chances are very slim an EMT can resuscitate you.
*If the student is unwilling to learn, chances are very slim the teacher will be able to teach said student.

I could go in deeper with my thoughts about teaching to the LCF and that whole mess but it isn't worth it. I will say in addition to my second post that, IMO, a strong school will strike a certain balance between the good teachers and the good mentors. You have to have your great educators, but you also have to have those who can inspire. Ideally you want both of those in every teacher you have, but that just isn't going to happen. A good teacher will be strong in one or the other, or decent in both categories. Your "teacher of the year" caliber will be strong in both.

I still maintain the average, legal, English speaking speaking student has the intellect and "health" to be taught successfully.

On the other hand, the EMT patient with a bullet in the head does not have the "health" to be saved. The analogy is not equivalent.

It is correct that going in, young teachers are a cut above the average worker. The unions (and specifically the atmosphere the unions have created between staff members and administrators) work quickly to beat the teachers into becoming the worst they worst they can be.

The car salesman analogy is a good one. The salesman is compensated to become the best he can be based upon performance. That's not the way unions work.

Back to post #1, those students are fed a diet of pablum because stand-out teachers are stifled and crushed by peer pressure. If a teacher tries to deviate from the "norm", they are ostricized and forced to teach the dumbed-down curriculum that is forced upon them.

When they are evaluated by the building principal (from twice per year for newer teachers to once every two years for seasoned teachers), they are marked down for lesson performance that deviates from the standard, whether that deviatiation is under or OVER the norm. They are penaluized for over-teaching, meaning being better than the low standard expected.

It's a giant, nationwide bell curve where only the mediocre are praised and paid approximately $40 per hour (plus benefits).

rebuy

There is a lot of good things happening in the schools here. Some students that graduate can actually read some and can write to a certain extent. They are such a pleasure to talk with also. One high schooler was putting up a help wanted sign at a store and spelled it help wonted and sandwhich is another good one.

We make up for this lack of learning by letting them have a week off to go deer hunting.

inspiredsports

ryanjoachim wrote: »

. . . I would rather let my children decide for themselves as they grow up whether or not to choose a religion . . .

I will share that we tried that by not forcing the church issue past the elementary school years.

Admittedly, my four 17-23 year old childen are a very small sample group, but 100% of them have decided not to choose so far.

If I had to do it over again, I would have insisted they were in the car with me on Sunday mornings until they moved away.

inspiredsports

sucks2beme wrote: »

I had a number of teachers that believed in repetition. I'm talking about teachers from half a century ago,
many that had already been teaching 20 years.That's why there's homework. Repeat it enough times,
and you won't forget. That's basic education. Then at some point they built on those basics and you learn
to examine things deeper and where to get answers on your own. Modern students see no point in repetition
and with the internet prefer to google rather than think for themselves.
I spent a lot of time reading. That was pushed hard both for school and leisure time.
Few modern kids(or even adults) read books. The newspaper is almost dead. That's a shame.
That online crap is hardly readable, and the price of the Dallas morning news has gotten pricey.
I'm a relic, and now am at the point I understand all those things my father told me when I was a kid.
Schools have become big business, with highly paid managers. And they now have all the faults
that come with big business. I think the best thing that could happen is for school districts to be
broken back down into smaller ones that are more responsive to what their main objective should be.

Exactly! I remember the pain of "flash card baseball" for multiplication and division tables in 5th grade with Mr. Cox (1966 maybe), standing red-faced at the plate as he uncovered cards in rapid-fire fashion. I learned those basic facts so well that I'm still able to solve most daily math challenges in my head or on paper faster than my kids with a calculator.

I caught my son working on a "Continuation of Government" assignment the other day as he used the "Find on page" feature to surgically extract the answers from a website in seconds rather than read and comprehend.

He should have taken a half-hour to read and absorb, but was done with the assignment in 5 minutes. So after watching him game the system, I engaged him in a half-hour conversation about the topic to make him go back and learn what he'd written on his answer sheet really meant.

He's a 4.0 kid in one of the top districts here in Ohio and already accepted by some tough universities, but I'm thinking he's in for a rude awakening next year when he actually has to spend a few hours a day on homework.

[Deleted User]

Saw this on Facebook.. Proud to say, not in my house..

tonyb

I'm gonna tip toe around the religion aspect here, but let me say this about church. God does not exist within only the walls of a church. More so within each of us. The agnostics believed that to be true as so do I. Unfortunately, that didn't bode well with those seeking to control a population in the earlier few centuries.

That said, I don't care about what religion one belongs to....or none for that matter. I think most can agree with that. As long as said religion does no harm, knock your socks off. Of coarse the whole religion or lack of it in schools has been a hot button issue for along time. Should not the community decide this ? Every area is different. What works in one place may not in another. Is there another reason to have the whole of the education system the same ? Uniformity ? That would work if humans were all uniform, but we aren't. Some profess we should be though, where's the fun in that ? We all learn at different levels, different ways, different speeds, a uniform system doesn't fit into that very well. Communities need latitude to adjust, to empower their own schools to include or not include that what the community wants in their schools. Even if one of those things is religion. Sounds like thats a simple thought , no ? Think about whats standing in the way of that.

BeefJerky

inspiredsports wrote: »

I will share that we tried that by not forcing the church issue past the elementary school years.

Admittedly, my four 17-23 year old childen are a very small sample group, but 100% of them have decided not to choose so far.

If I had to do it over again, I would have insisted they were in the car with me on Sunday mornings until they moved away.

It sounds to me like you didn't really want to let them make their own decision regarding religion. Or, should I say, you're only happy if their "own decision" is the same as yours. Either force it or don't. But, if you really want them to make their own decision on the matter, then you should be supportive and happy for them regardless of what their decision is. Besides, even if your forced it, they still may choose to turn away as adults. I was raised as a Christian, but made my own choice to follow the path to agnosticism regardless.

cnh

post mistake.

tonyb

Lets break it down....I like to do that.

Would it not be of benefit, to have individual communities make the decisions that greatly impact their own community instead of a central agency 1000 miles away ?

Would it not be of benefit to empower teachers, getting them excited about teaching again ?
Would it not be of benefit to have choices, individual choices, on how your education dollars are spent ?

Clearly, if the childs education is the number one priority, as well it should be, you have to scrap the current system and empower communities and individuals.

inspiredsports

BeefJerky wrote: »

It sounds to me like you didn't really want to let them make their own decision regarding religion. Or, should I say, you're only happy if their "own decision" is the same as yours. Either force it or don't. But, if you really want them to make their own decision on the matter, then you should be supportive and happy for them regardless of what their decision is. Besides, even if your forced it, they still may choose to turn away as adults. I was raised as a Christian, but made my own choice to follow the path to agnosticism regardless.

I refrained from stating it before, but the reasons for my belief that it would have been good to reinforce the behavior beyond elementary school were manifold, the biggest being any denomination church is a great social institution beyond whatever belief system it supports.

inspiredsports

tonyb wrote: »

. . . clearly, if the child's education is the number one priority, as well it should be, you have to scrap the current system and empower communities and individuals . . .

Yep.