Opinions wanted on Pioneer CT-F1250 cassette player

Fongolio

Yes, I know it's old school but then so am I. It's not a Nakamichi but it's one of the best Pioneer ever made. I'm wanting a high end cassette player and I have an opportunity to trade straight across my Carver HR-772 receiver (150 watts RMS@ 8 ohms) for a Pioneer CT-F1250. Any one with any experience with this unit or opinions on the trade? Here is a pic of one just like it. Click on the little pic for super size.

cnh

Stuwee, Brock and mhardy and others might know about that unit in particular. I've never heard it. It did get good reviews in its time as a TOTL Pioneer unit during the early 80s...the "fluroscan" period of Pioneer gear. I have a Pioneer receiver from that period that is a nice piece.

A bit on the late side here so probably won't hear from the boys till tomorrow. How much are they asking for that?

Oh, I see, it's a straight trade? Originally $700

http://silverpioneer.netfirms.com/cassette_decks.htm

cnh

Syndil

I'd snag it. That tape deck is worth roughly twice your Carver, using previously-sold items on eBay as my yardstick.

Joe08867

I have to agree with Syndil, that silver faced pioneer stuff fetches bug bucks.

Plus if you still have any cassettes floating around the house they will not sound better than on that deck.

jon s

The only problem with the Pioneer cassette decks is servicing. It is starting to get hard to find anyone who can service it or get parts. If the reels uses clutches (it may have direct moter drives, common in top end cassette players) then that would not be a problem. It if has clutches, I would seriously consider having them overhauled for some peace of mind. Also check the three heads to see how much wear there is.

mhardy6647

I'd opine that - short of the lack of metal tape capability - the CTF-1000 is a better deck in general.
Note that I don't have a CT-F1250... but I do have a CTF-900 and a CTF-1000 and have A/B'd those inside and out, as it were.

No idea how much one is worth, unfortunately.

madmax

I'm pretty sure you can order a belt kit for it too if it needs it. I did my 900 a few years back.

heiney9

Joe08867 wrote: »

I have to agree with Syndil, that silver faced pioneer stuff fetches bug bucks.

Plus if you still have any cassettes floating around the house they will not sound better than on that deck.

Think NAK.


The Pioneer's were very good in the day, but not the ultimate. Don't get caught up in the nostalgia of "silver faced Pioneer" and over pay. It's a cassette deck, which is a dinosaur. Beyond collecting, it's pretty much useless, IMO of course

gdb

Is that one of the decks that physically turns the cassette over for auto reverse ? I love that tech !:cheesygrin:

Polkersince85

I've got a CT-F900 and a Nak Dragon. The Nak will kick its butt. The silver face stuff looks cool though.

gdb

Dolby X , Y or Z....they all hiss in my opinion & experience. I walked out on a Manheim S'roller concert because they were playing hissy, taped material while "instrument syncing" to it! Buttheads !:mad:

dorokusai

I've owned a few of the CT-F decks and they're nice but that's not worth $700. If it's been totally checked, spec'd and upgraded, maybe but not stock or in just average condition. I paid $200 for mine and had it completely checked out, upgraded the rollers, belts and some other nick naks and it played great. I've also owned two Dragons and of course it's a better deck but usually overpriced and marginally maintained, even if aesthetics are perfect.

Almost any cassette deck needs some work and a serious checkup to ensure proper operation, as well they should be.

To the guy who asked if the CT-F1250 flips the cassette, no, it does not. That's the Nakamichi RX series I believe.

Fongolio

Well, I went ahead and did the trade which I think is equitable. The deck is 100% functional and sounds very nice. The belts, capstans and pinch rollers are all in perfect running condition. A few very cool features are the pitch control which controls the motor speed but has quartz speed control. Also biasing controls for any kind of tape and of course with three heads actual tape monitoring. I made a vinyl recording (just like in the good ol' days) on just normal bias tape and played it back on the rig and it sounded excellent. From the listening position at my normal volume I could not hear any hiss except a slight amount between songs. And that with only Dolby B. I'm very impressed with it and love the look so overall I'm very pleased with the transaction.

Now does anyone have any new old stock high bias tapes they want to get rid of?

Syndil

Congrats on the transaction. You definitely got the better end of the deal.

heiney9

gdb wrote: »

Is that one of the decks that physically turns the cassette over for auto reverse ? I love that tech !:cheesygrin:

Nakamichi invented that not Pioneer. Anyone care to guess why they did that?

H9

heiney9

Polkersince85 wrote: »

I've got a CT-F900 and a Nak Dragon. The Nak will kick its butt. The silver face stuff looks cool though.

Not even a contest.

H9

heiney9

Enjoy Fongolio, nothing like a trip down memory lane.

H9

vcwatkins

Congrats Fongolio! To me, it is almost entirely about the nostalgia. Pleasure derived from the function and beauty of the silver face and wood. That's why I bought old silver gear. It's also why I use an old Pioneer turntable from that era. I don't play cassette's or lp's frequently (outside of ripping), but when I do, I enjoy the entire aesthetic of the experience, not just the sound. Same reason I chose a '72 TR6 over a Miata. The 6 is a pain in the butt to service and the Miata performs better in every single way. But the 6 is sublime on a sunny weekend.

I looked around for a deck (Pioneer 900+) that had been serviced, sounded adequate, and looked good, but wasn't able to find anything in my price range. So I just use my old Denon 780, which still works well and sounds fine - but ugghh, it's black. I still lust for something like the one you got. I'm glad you followed your heart. Enjoy!

dorokusai

heiney9 wrote: »

Nakamichi invented that not Pioneer. Anyone care to guess why they did that?

H9

Something about tape azimuth or alignment of it on the heads. Didn't they also do something with the felt pads on the cassette itself?

heiney9

If the tape head is reversed there was no way to economically (think price) to ensure proper head alignment playing in the reverse direction. I'm sure some remember trying to play side B on an auto-reverse deck and it sounding a little different than playing it forward. Too many variables to ensure 100% accurate positioning of the heads the same as playing forward. It was much easier, relatively speaking, to keep the head 100% stationary and reverse the actual tape, mechanincally in the transport. The transport could be made to postion the tape in the exact same position relative to the heads whether playing side A or B.

The Dragon and few other very select Nak's were auto-reverse, but rather than making the head stationary or using a semi-complicated transport that flipped the tape around they used a very sophisticated computer controlled floating head. The micro computer would make very tiny adjustments to the tape head by measuring azimth alignment for every single tape put in the transport. In effect no matter what tape deck a tape was recorded on the Dragon could computate the exact azimuth alignment of the deck the tape was recorded on and duplicate it for absolute optimum playback of every tape played on it. Remember making tapes and then taking them to a friends house to play on a different deck and them sometimes sounding muffled, less than stellar, etc. The NACC on the Dragon eliminated this. Expensive and for the time very advanced.

H9

George Grand

Fongolio wrote: »

Now does anyone have any new old stock high bias tapes they want to get rid of?

Heh-heh-heh.

gdb

Are those kinda tapes not made anymore ?

Tour2ma

heiney9 wrote: »

If the tape head is reversed there was no way to economically (think price) to ensure proper head alignment playing in the reverse direction. I'm sure some remember trying to play side B on an auto-reverse deck and it sounding a little different than playing it forward. Too many variables to ensure 100% accurate positioning of the heads the same as playing forward. It was much easier, relatively speaking, to keep the head 100% stationary and reverse the actual tape, mechanincally in the transport. The transport could be made to postion the tape in the exact same position relative to the heads whether playing side A or B.

The Dragon and few other very select Nak's were auto-reverse, but rather than making the head stationary or using a semi-complicated transport that flipped the tape around they used a very sophisticated computer controlled floating head. The micro computer would make very tiny adjustments to the tape head by measuring azimth alignment for every single tape put in the transport. In effect no matter what tape deck a tape was recorded on the Dragon could computate the exact azimuth alignment of the deck the tape was recorded on and duplicate it for absolute optimum playback of every tape played on it. Remember making tapes and then taking them to a friends house to play on a different deck and them sometimes sounding muffled, less than stellar, etc. The NACC on the Dragon eliminated this. Expensive and for the time very advanced.

Actually azimuth was the issue.

Since most decks combined record and playback head functions on one physical head, one way to "monitor" in either direction an auto-reverse deck was to flip the head. Repeated flippings, a rather rough process for a precision dependent device to go through repeatedly, led to azimuth error.

Note that playback only decks, e.g., auto installations, had no such issues.

Since Nak and other high-end cassette decks utilized true, three-head systems, for auto-reverse they had to either:
- flip the entire, 3-head system;
- utilize 6 heads; or
- flip the cassette.

There may be some, but I don't know of any that flipped three heads.

There were some that went the 6-head route. But given the space limitations cassette shells presents for accessing the tape the common approach was to "cram" four head functions onto one physical head. This in contrast to true 6-head, auto-reverse open reel rigs.

Nak pioneered the cassette flipping and was later followed by Akai. A practical solution with the added benefit of a cool factor... :cool:

Tour2ma

gdb wrote: »

Are those kinda tapes not made anymore ?

Most of the old, big names are still out there, e.g., Maxell, TDK, Sony...

Who is actually making them is the question...

Joe08867

I found a bunch at J&R online.

http://www.jr.com/category/audio/blank-tapes-and-discs/tapes-and-cassettes/

heiney9

Tour2ma wrote: »

Actually azimuth was the issue.

Since most decks combined record and playback head functions on one physical head, one way to "monitor" in either direction an auto-reverse deck was to flip the head. Repeated flippings, a rather rough process for a precision dependent device to go through repeatedly, led to azimuth error.

Note that playback only decks, e.g., auto installations, had no such issues.

Since Nak and other high-end cassette decks utilized true, three-head systems, for auto-reverse they had to either:
- flip the entire, 3-head system;
- utilize 6 heads; or
- flip the cassette.

There may be some, but I don't know of any that flipped three heads.

There were some that went the 6-head route. But given the space limitations cassette shells presents for accessing the tape the common approach was to "cram" four head functions onto one physical head. This in contrast to true 6-head, auto-reverse open reel rigs.

Nak pioneered the cassette flipping and was later followed by Akai. A practical solution with the added benefit of a cool factor... :cool:

Even the best 3 head systems had azimuth problems with tapes not made their own deck. It was fine if you played your cassettes on your own deck, but play cassettes a friend made and they could sound less than optimum. That was THE issue the Dragon solved. It sensed the azimuth alignment used when the cassette was recorded and duplicated it by adjusting the azimuth agle automatically for each cassette it played.

H9

heiney9

Tour2ma wrote: »

Note that playback only decks, e.g., auto installations, had no such issues.

Actually they did. All decks have azimuth discrepancies during playback. Every deck a tape is recorded on has a minutely different azimuth angle that if not duplicated during playback can cause degredation. As long as you played your tapes on the same deck you recorded them, this really wasn't much of an issue. Since you couldn't record on a playback deck in your car that meant you could possibly have azimuth alignment issues that caused the tapes to sound less than stellar.

Again, NAK had their high end decks that employed the same NACC system in the Dragon that sensed and corrected for proper azimuth alignment, for the best playback results of any tape played.

H9

mhardy6647

Joe08867 wrote: »

I found a bunch at J&R online.

http://www.jr.com/category/audio/blank-tapes-and-discs/tapes-and-cassettes/

I see that they still have TDK SA tape... I didn't know that it was still in production (perhaps it isn't?)!
Does anyone happen to have any ears-on experience with modern TDK SA? It must be the last high-ish performance cassette tape still available.

gdb

Here ya go.

http://www.google.com/#pq=new+audio+tape+cassette&hl=en&ds=pr&cp=11&gs_id=p&xhr=t&q=new+hi+bias+audio+tape+cassette&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&rlz=1R2ADRA_enUS465&tbm=shop&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=new+hi+bias+audio+tape+cassette&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=c43dad7f5fd90df1&biw=1600&bih=688



I used to prefer BASF tapes and read once that some other brands were re-labeled BASFs

Gempler

The best cassettes were the TDK SA-X and the Maxell XLII. I don't think either has been made for a while. At least they are very hard to find. They do trade on Ebay for a premium price.

That Pioneer is sweet, and certainly great looking. I remember a friend having one and being blown away by it. But Naks are legendary for their proprietary heads that could reproduce bass like no one else. Yet Naks have their own quirks, limited parts availability for older units being a big problem, but also they record differently than other manufacturers and so playback of Nak recordings on other brand machines sound weak. I can't remember exactly what they did but think it was something like record on a slightly narrower track. This was lost on their last generation of decks, but the earlier stuff has warmth like nothing else.
As few people have any interest in cassettes anymore I see Naks come up on my local Craig's all the time for next to nothing and would suggest going that route. Check out naks.com to get a sense of the model history, or the now abandoned page from sonicsense (http://www.angelfire.com/wi/blueswapper/sonic-faq2002.html).

dorokusai

I bought a ten pack of the old, all metal shell cassettes last year. They are on eBay and the price was just fine.