System Synergy

Serendipity

Over the past few years, I have tried out various combinations of audio gear on my system and was surprised that in some cases, a lower-costing source (or other component) sometimes sounded better than a more expensive component and that cost does not really matter in terms of sound quality.

What I figured out is that synergy is more important in getting the right sound and what sounds best to one person's ears might not be what another person prefers.

Case in point: Last night I was reading an article on a comparison between two sets of audio components on the same set of speakers in a listening test. The article can be found here:

http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

I personally experienced this with amplifiers and CD players. When I was running the Onkyo TX-SR702 receiver, I once hooked it up to an Adcom GFA-535 amplifier (basically, using the pre-outs of the receiver) and found that the Adcom/Onkyo combo sounded worse than the Onkyo alone!! In addition, the sound was harsh, bloated, and too fatiguing with the Adcom as the amp that I went back to the Onkyo alone for a good 5 or so years.

Now here is my dilemma. I've been looking at several Parasound HALO combos and find that the HALO amps are known for a detailed, precise sound whereas other brands (such as Rotel) have a more neutral, warmer sound. I listen to a lot of New Age music and operatic pieces that have bright female vocals, and am afraid that the Parasound gear may be a step in the wrong direction.

I heard the Parasound A21 *many* years ago in New Jersey, and it was on a set of PSB speakers. I remember the sound to be forward and detailed sounding. From my experience, I prefer listening to my favorite CD's such as Enya - Amarantine on a warmer setup. And looking through the rest of my collection, and seeing as others have posted here, Sarah Brightman's vocals are usually very bright and difficult to listen to on a "forward-sounding" system.

Is there a good, warm-sounding pre/pro + amp combo that is a better alternative than the Parasound HALO C1/A21/A51? I'd love to try the HALO gear but the more I read about it, the more I feel unfortunately it won't work with my musical tastes and forward-sounding speakers.

Thanks!

Face

Marantz, HK, McIntosh, NAD, etc..

Serendipity

Outlaw's website has a great deal on a Marantz + Oultlaw combo for just over $2k.

I understand the Marantz is warmer sounding... how about the Outlaw 7500/7700?

P.S. You have to buy the Marantz with an Outlaw amp to get the deal.

steveinaz

Parasound is actually known for being on the warm side of neutral. The ONLY thing that is going to "fix" forward biased speakers, is different speakers (or possibly room treatments/speaker placement options). Seriously--I don't want you to chase your tail on this. If your speakers sound forward on Parasound amplification--you've got a forward speaker (assuming a good source and source material). All the upstream changes you make won't make any difference--except to your wallet and patience level.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Yep, steve's right

Serendipity

I think most speakers sound a little too forward-sounding and bass heavy to my tastes.

The only speaker that I truly liked the sound of on Classical/Opera/NewAge was the Bose 901, I was told at PolkFest that the 901's really need to be set up properly and that most impressions of the Bose 901 are due to poor setup (aka no highs or lows, etc.)

I really like the sound of 901's, despite what people have to say about them.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I like bananas

Serendipity

I dunno man, it seems like most of the people who bash the 901's have never heard them set up properly. We had a long discussion at PolkFest about this and either I am hearing things differently from what others have heard, or it's just a matter of personal taste.

Maybe my expectations of a speaker are different from what others want, I have heard the 901's too many times to count and overall had a positive experience with the sound signature. They seem to remove digititis and any fatigue from listening for a long time.

steveinaz

I would agree, as a 901 Series VI owner for 13yrs----they are easy on the ears, and setup properly they can sound pretty decent. 901's forte is Rock/Pop however, and don't make a good acoustic/classical music type speaker (IMO).

Are you hell-bent on floor standers?

There's lots of options. Hunt down more laid back designs, maybe even dip your toes into the single/full range driver arena. Look for designs with soft-dome tweeters, etc, etc. I've seen a few ACI Sapphires on audiogon lately, it's known for it's laid-back nature in the treble.

Serendipity

No, I don't really need floor-standers and don't mind going with bookshelf speakers.

For the record, I think my system is bright, Face doesn't think it's too bright, but says that it doesn't image too well. I thought that the PolkFest rigs were too bright, most said they were neutral, I also thought the Carvers were bass-heavy. George Daniel said that the Carvers are usually not regarded as bass-heavy.

I am open to trying bookshelves because they may image better than the bipolar speakers I currently have.

This is where I am at so far in the downstairs system build:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?128503-And-it-begins...

steveinaz

I hate sounding like a fan-boy, but the truth is the truth---Fritz speakers are very laid back in the treble. You may want to look at the "Grove" or "Carbon 7." Given good sources, ZERO listener fatique. ACI (no longer is business) also has laid back treble. The Carbon 7's I had literally disappeared into the room, sonically.

If you enjoyed 901's, maybe fullrange/single driver could be your personal nirvana? I often considered that route myself.

Serendipity

I will have to give them a listen.

I have found that I can't stand listening to speakers with detailed tweeters, such as the FocalJMLab Grand Utopia, because they are too hot (to me) up top. In fact, I generally prefer full-range designs over speakers with crossovers... something about them just doesn't sound "right" to me. Transition points between the mid/tweeter are too harsh and high end has "glare" like my DefTechs.

A while back I posted about hearing the 901's vs. the Bose 301 and said that the 301's sounded horrible, so I am not a Bose fanboy nor will I ever say Bose products ALL sound great. I just seem to like the sonic signature of the 901's, and other full-range speakers for that matter. I honestly think that the 901's sounded great. Maybe a single-driver DIY design will be best for me.

Thanks for the advice so far.

steveinaz

Fritz used to build single driver/full range speakers, but I'm not seeeing them on his site now. Maybe give him a call--he's very good at responding back to customers. He did tell me once, that he tries to talk people out of his fullrange speaks--because most of them don't know what to expect with a fullrange system, and they end up sending the speakers back. That might be why he quit advertising them--but he can build you practically anything.

Serendipity

True, most people don't know what to expect with a full range speaker; I find that I like the lack of a crossover and the resulting decrease in distortion that occurs during the transition points (since there are none). But the disadvantage to this design is getting good high frequency output from a set of 3 or 4" drivers, so some careful engineering and planning is necessary.

Bose uses an Active EQ in line to achieve this effect, I'd prefer to not use any EQ if I go the DIY route, I may just build a full-range line array using Tang Band 3" drivers for high frequency performance vs. the 4.5" Bose full range driver, and sacrifice some bass response (I personally don't like a heavy bass note anyways).

steveinaz

There's tons of DIY for fullrange--go for it man.

steveinaz

Here you go: http://www.fritzspeakers.com/FullRangeSpecs.htm

dkg999

Synergy is everything in an audio system. It's so hard to evaluate any single piece of the system, or potential upgrade, until you know how it is going to play with everything else, including your room.

It sounds to me like you are looking for the Spendor, Quad (non-electrostatic), or Rega type of sound. Epos is also a brand you should listen to.

Serendipity

I heard a Epos demo at the 2005 Home Entertainment Show in NYC driven by a Shanling CDP, Music Hall line stage, Music Hall amp, and was impressed by the sound. However, they were still a little too bright to my tastes. Bass was really solid and musical though.

Quad, Spendor, definitely warmer sounding speakers...

Haven't heard anything from Rega.

vcwatkins

Is there a reason you don't just get 901's since you know you like their sound?

I never could get happy with 2-channel thru my DefTech 2000's, so, after many years, finally decided to put in a separate 2-channel. Wish I had done it long ago.

audiocr381ve

Ever given Polk SDA's any consideration? I've had all types of speakers, forward, laid back, bass heavy, bass shy, highly detailed, etc...

A stock pair of SDA's (with maybe a few tweaks like removing the polyswitch) could be just what you're looking for. Of the ones I've heard, I could highly recommend the CRS+, 2B, and 1C.

dkg999

I've always thought Spendors ran towards that dark, behind the speakers sound-stage the BBC designs standards were famous for.

Joe08867

I am with Audio on this one, Try a nice set of CRS+'s and you can have your cake and hear it too.

901's aren't that bad, there is a reason they still make them after all these years. I agree though that they are more pop/rock oriented IMHO.

Fullrange drivers like Hawthorne's might be a real good fit as well.

Face

steveinaz wrote: »

Parasound is actually known for being on the warm side of neutral. The ONLY thing that is going to "fix" forward biased speakers, is different speakers (or possibly room treatments/speaker placement options). Seriously--I don't want you to chase your tail on this. If your speakers sound forward on Parasound amplification--you've got a forward speaker (assuming a good source and source material). All the upstream changes you make won't make any difference--except to your wallet and patience level.

I've been telling him for months to fix his room first, good luck with that.

Serendipity

I bought 2 pieces of acoustic foam and was told it was no good.

What should I do? Hang them? I still have the two pieces of foam.

Face

http://gikacoustics.com/gik_244.html

Serendipity

Trying out what I have behind the speakers right now...

Will report on the difference.

Face

FYI, a friend of mine has the same speakers as you in a much different room. A smallish living room with a rug, curtains, NAD gear, etc... Sounded like a totally different speaker, in fact, they were on the warm side. Your room is definitely your biggest issue. I'm aware of the possibility of water damage, you can hang treatments on your walls a few inches off the floor so this isn't an issue. Buy a cheap area rug so you're not out much if there is any additional flooding. Then try out some different gear. IIRC, you have Dayton caps in the crossover, correct? If so, those aren't helping you either.

Serendipity

So I temporarily placed up the two pieces of acoustic foam (sorry, that's all I have at this moment) and found that I had to change the Phase of the sub from 180' to 0'. It used to be on 180' and was set that way when you heard it. Otherwise, the sound is too muddy. Is this normal?

Face

That foam shouldn't be making a different anywhere near where your sub is playing...unless it's been wrong all along.

Serendipity

It was set to 180' (REV) ever since I first set up. After changing it to 0', the muddiness disappeared.

See here: http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?128503-And-it-begins

vcwatkins

Just got some ATS insulation panels in today and stuck them behind my mains. Huge difference, and added warmth which I didn't expect. Good call Face.