LSi 15's as surrounds (technically applies to all floorstanders as surrounds)

EndersShadow

Question for the forum: Whose running LSi 15's as surrounds over say the 9's or 7's, and do you notice any differences in sound due to the difference in height? I am debating purchasing another set of the 15's before they are totally gone and running 5 LSi 15's + LSiC as my setup.

I figure I see the 7's and 9's come up here all the time for sale and shipping on them isnt too bad, whereas the 15's are shipping prohibitive based on the cost, and the likelihood of being broken upon arrival is much greater. Also add the Polk ebay site has free shipping and they are ~50% off right now and that just makes a bit more sense. While I want to mod the x-overs I can do that anytime since those parts aren't really going to disappear, they just might cost a little more .

I also thought that since I am in an apartment and have a not too good sub (PSW125), adding full range surrounds would help even out the lower end of things (80-50hz) and fix any nulls in those frequencies and then let the bass handle the bottom end of things.

I know surrounds are "ideally" meant to be mounted 2-3 feet above the listeners ears when seated, but curious for you guys running floorstanders if you have noticed the difference. I could always build a little stand to raise them 6 inches or so (WAF factor allowing), but was curious.

More than likely I would run them at either full range or something in the 60hz for the crossover since they are rated to go to 22hz.

Looking at you DarqueKnight, and NooshinJohn since you guys run/ran them as surrounds. I believe BlueFox might have done the same as well.

tonyb

Well, I haven't run those particular speakers as surrounds but have run towers as surrounds and found it to be a waste on movies. The only time they benefited was on SACD where 5 full range channels was of benefit.

If your going to spend the coin on more towers to round out the bottom end as you say, why not just upgrade that subwoofer ? Thats the limiting factor for your bottom end from what I can see.

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

Well, I haven't run those particular speakers as surrounds but have run towers as surrounds and found it to be a waste on movies. The only time they benefited was on SACD where 5 full range channels was of benefit.

If your going to spend the coin on more towers to round out the bottom end as you say, why not just upgrade that subwoofer ? Thats the limiting factor for your bottom end from what I can see.

I agree that the sub is limiting, however if I replaced it I would want to purchase 2 sub's one for each corner to even out frequency response. Being in an apartment that would most likely create some problems for me as I would go with 2 decent subs. Also the cost of those 2 subs would more than likely be equal if not exceed the cost of the 2 LSi's and I dont have the ability to EQ each sub independent, so its still not as perfect a solution as I would like it to be.

Drenis

If you know you have or will have the room, then do it! :razz:

tonyb

Buy one good sub, your in an apartment, how big can the room be anyway ? That sub probably isn't doing anything the 15's can't at full range anyway.

In a smallish room, more speakers only tend to muddy up the sound rather than help. Plus I assume you don't play things too loud being in an apartment and all, so low level dynamics is probably of more importance which smaller speakers do better in the surround position than big floorstanders....generally speaking.

EndersShadow

tonyb wrote: »

Buy one good sub, your in an apartment, how big can the room be anyway ? That sub probably isn't doing anything the 15's can't at full range anyway.

Room in the place we are moving to is 21'6" x 13'6" with I believe 8 or 9 foot ceilings (not sure which). Here is the floorplan, its just like that except the patio door is farther back toward the dining table in that picture, and where the counter/kitchen seems to go into the living area will be a total walkthrough.

I am currently thinking of putting the sub on the wall with the closet as close to the hallyway as possible and using it as an end table. I am hoping that will allow the LP to get more bass, and allow less to pass through to any neighbors to the left and right.

Attachment not found.

Joe08867

Is that closet also where the stairs are? I would avoid that. The stairway will carry the sound to both floors and into that neighboring wall.

EndersShadow

Joe08867 wrote: »

Is that closet also where the stairs are? I would avoid that. The stairway will carry the sound to both floors and into that neighboring wall.

Yes that closet is where the stairs are, but its a closed off wall top to bottom, however as its an interior wall it probably doesnt have any isulation (just thought of that :eek).

In this layout where would you put the sub? Along the outside wall as near to the LP as possible?

BlueFox

My HT room is a small bedroom that is 11x12. Prior to the LSi15s as surrounds I had LSi7s. For whatever reason, I really loved the LSi15s in the front, and decided to upgrade to LSi15s in the back. In so far as height I have never had any issue, When the surround channels are used the effect is fantastic. I am not sure what any extra height will accomplish.

I only turn my sub on for rare occasions. One of the first things I noticed with the rear LSi15s was a huge increase in bass. It was as if it doubled. I have a recliner in the center and, slightly forward of the rear speakers, and I could feel the bass from the rear LSi15s hitting me. In addition to the extra bass I think the sound was clearer and overall better than the LSi7s. However, it has been around 5 years since I upgraded so it is hard to accurately remember, but I definitely remember the extra bass.

nooshinjohn

By all means do it.:cool:

I did not care for the 15's up front as mains, but loved them as surrounds. The detail from the ring tweets and teh ability to go low when needed was nice to have. Keep in mind that amplification will be essential to getting all you can out of them.

I would pose another scenario for you however, and that would be to drop the 15's to the rears and get 25's up front. For the extra coin, you would be greatly rewarded.

EndersShadow

Thanks for that BlueFox. I really am in a conundrum LOL.

I am trying to figure juggle the following options.

1. Sunfire Cinema Grand (900) + Anthem MX-300 (1000) + LSi 15's (850) + keeping PSW125 = 2750
2. Sunfire Cinema Grand (900) + Anthem MX-300 (1000) + HSU VTF-2 (610) + keeping Infinity Primus surrounds = 2510
3. Sunfire Cinema Grand (900) + Keeping Integra 5.9 + LSi 15's (850) + HSU VTF-2 (610) = 2360

Option 1 & 2 are probably pretty close depending on how ARC configures things. Option 3 is probably the best speaker setup I would need for and long time and then I just wait till the Integra craps out and upgrade to something with better EQ at that point. Considering I am only using 1 sub for right now I could get an Onkyo w/ pre-outs and XT rather than XT 32, but that would save me maybe 150 bucks tops. Or hopefully by the time I would need to upgrade AVR's XT32 would be on AVR's with lower pricepoints, and Anthem would be out with a AVR with 2 sub outs that could be independently EQ'd

nooshinjohn

The Pioneer Elite SC-37 can be had for less than the Anthem, and would be a better choice IMHO. It has much more flexibility and ICE power to boot. The Sunfire 5/200 or 7/200 will be a complete waste of time. Better to spend the money for a Sig series amp and keep the Oinker for now.


The new math would be something like this...

Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature... 1400.00
Polk LSi 15 900.00

Add the Pioneer Elite later for around 800.00

EndersShadow

nooshinjohn wrote: »

The Pioneer Elite SC-37 can be had for less than the Anthem, and would be a better choice IMHO. It has much more flexibility and ICE power to boot. The Sunfire 5/200 or 7/200 will be a complete waste of time. Better to spend the money for a Sig series amp and keep the Oinker for now.

I agree about the Pio, but I am not a fan of their EQ program over ARC or even Audyssey XT which is where the problem lies. ARC as a system really interests me as I can see how my speakers and room are interacting at the listening positions. I can then adjust, re-run and compare the results. Audyssey XT you just set and hope it works right. Pio's EQ isnt as good as Audyssey's either from my understanding (but no actual first hand knowledge like you).

So you think I should get the Signature (which I have considered) and another pair of LSi 15's and just leave the sub and AVR situation alone for right now correct? That is an option I have highly considered as I really did like how your LSi 15's sounded as surrounds when we watched a bit of Iron Man 2 at your house. I do however wonder how much of my awe was due to both the power you had, and the SDA fronts

Drenis

MCACC is solid for setup. I don't use the Pioneer EQ so I disable that after MCACC has ran and will not enable it again.

EndersShadow

Drenis wrote: »

MCACC is solid for setup. I don't use the Pioneer EQ so I disable that after MCACC has ran and will not enable it again.

I think I am going to try and do what John suggests, get 2 more LSi 15's, a Sunfire Signature to run all 5, and then if I can sell off some other gear, a refurb Onkyo 709, which has Audyssey XT, to round off the EQ for a bit. I believe the 709 has the same if not more connections than my current Integra and pre-outs to boot.

I think that getting a better sub wont help me as it wont really be utilized like it should be. The 15's roll off quick enough that they will give me enough bass to make me happier, while keeping my neighbors from reporting me. I will just work with the PSW125 I have and try to locate it as close to the LP as possibe, and maybe look into butt kickers for the couch.....

michael1947

Hi there in Indy,
In my present main floor HT room, 16X21X12height I presently run some old powered towers, RT2000P. Some folks reviewed them as muddy but I really like them and actually have a couple more working as mains downstairs. Point is these are pretty tall towers at 45.5 inches, just measured them, they seem to be right at the correct height. With only one 6.5" mid woofer and a single tweeter pointing at you you don't get overwhelmed yet the dual 8" powered sub-woofers are right near the bottom and just make things shake. They each have 160 watts to power their dual 8's and it's like having 3 subs in the room. I just puts a grin on my face when something like Transformers or better yet Inception begin to rumble. It will be a shame to replace these with my new SDA set-up in a few weeks.

The reason I write is to say...I feel your pain. It's a killer deal on the LSI's right now and I would like to have some room or a reason to buy for all of the same reasons you mentioned. Now I hate to spend another $300.00 but...the LSI-25 are the same on top with a larger sub-woofer which has about 160 watts. To me that's a free lunch. Spreading the base around is a good thing with HT and according to my challenged math/audio knowledge they should require less power from your HT amplifier for the same SPL. Just my thoughts.

michael1947

I just saw that you're contemplating a txnr 709, a fine unit and as a refurb will be around $600. Last month I purchased a refurb txnr 708 for about $325 but does not have wifi capability (direct plug only, which is what I will use ) and the Audyssey is DSX and I don't know how that compares with the 709's Audyssey XT. I have been testing it in another room using it as a pre for my Emotiva XPA-5 and it is performing wonderfully running a variety of speakers.

EndersShadow

michael1947 wrote: »

The reason I write is to say...I feel your pain. It's a killer deal on the LSI's right now and I would like to have some room or a reason to buy for all of the same reasons you mentioned. Now I hate to spend another $300.00 but...the LSI-25 are the same on top with a larger sub-woofer which has about 160 watts. To me that's a free lunch. Spreading the base around is a good thing with HT and according to my challenged math/audio knowledge they should require less power from your HT amplifier for the same SPL. Just my thoughts.

That extra 300 if put into the amp fund can get me something along the lines of a Sunfire Signature 450x5 (which translates into 850x5 @ 4 ohm). I doubt the LSi 15's will ever want for power with that. The 25's amp wont produce as much umph as the Signature paired with the 15's, especially with 4 of them :biggrin:

michael1947 wrote: »

I just saw that you're contemplating a txnr 709, a fine unit and as a refurb will be around $600. Last month I purchased a refurb txnr 708 for about $325 but does not have wifi capability (direct plug only, which is what I will use ) and the Audyssey is DSX and I don't know how that compares with the 709's Audyssey XT. I have been testing it in another room using it as a pre for my Emotiva XPA-5 and it is performing wonderfully running a variety of speakers.

XT has more filters for the mains and subs. XT has 100 times the filters of 2EQ and EQ's the sub which I dont do at all. Totally depends on if I have enough after selling some stuff though, and if I can convince the wife to go with it. Onkyo's are UUUGGGGLLYYYY compared to something like a Marantz (but are much cheaper too )

Geoff4rfc

EndersShadow wrote: »

I know surrounds are "ideally" meant to be mounted 2-3 feet above the listeners ears when seated, but curious for you guys running floorstanders if you have noticed the difference. I could always build a little stand to raise them 6 inches or so (WAF factor allowing), but was curious.

Shoot, I've got my M70's as surrounds and I love it! My M40's were mounted up high for surrounds prior but with my towers on the floor, I don't notice any difference.

EndersShadow

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Shoot, I've got my M70's as surrounds and I love it! My M40's were mounted up high for surrounds prior but with my towers on the floor, I don't notice any difference.

I did in the past use R50's for surrounds, however they do not have nearly the bass response of the 15's. That and they didnt have nearly as good of gear behind them as my speakers do now. Thats kinda what I was looking to get more answers to since I was hoping the 15's passive sub with enough power would even out my bass responses and keep me "apartment bass" happy till I can get some monsters.

I think I will probably be getting the 15's when my bonus comes in since they wont be around forever, shipping costs are cost prohibitive unless you get them for like 500 bucks (unlikely for a pair) or Polk Direct, and likelihood of them being broken upon delivery is higher if going from a third party source.

So worst case I get them and dont use them to their "full potential", but with the power they will be getting from purchasing a better amp, I think they will do enough. Plus I can always use them as a dedicated 2 channel system later on if needed.

Then I don't have to worry about mounting any speaker brackets to the wall (in the new place), my speakers all match (wife likes the cherry wood sides on the 15's we have now), and I can use the extra set of Meniscus spikes I have. The ONLY thing that is a bit worse is that modding 4 LSi 15's is gonna be expensive....

And if I wanted to I can go 7.1 with my old surrounds as rear surrounds (doubtful I will do this though)

Lietuvis91

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

Shoot, I've got my M70's as surrounds and I love it! My M40's were mounted up high for surrounds prior but with my towers on the floor, I don't notice any difference.

Wait... so you don't notice any difference between m40s and m70s as surrounds?

EndersShadow

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

Wait... so you don't notice any difference between m40s and m70s as surrounds?

Yeah, that also depends though on what his xovers were set to. If he didnt change them (i.e. drop them a bit lower) that might explain things. Also if he didnt re-run any auto-calibration as well.

Geoff4rfc

Lietuvis91 wrote: »

Wait... so you don't notice any difference between m40s and m70s as surrounds?

I was referring to the placement difference.

There's more sound coming from the 70's than the 40's.

Lietuvis91

Geoff4rfc wrote: »

I was referring to the placement difference.

There's more sound coming from the 70's than the 40's.

Gothcha, I wasn't sure what you meant at first.

I run towers as surrounds, it's nice, but I feel it really clutters the room. Also, the m60s are not as tall as m70s, so, I have mine on 14inch stands(home made), otherwise you really aren't hearing everything like you should be. So off the bat I can tell you placement can be a challenge. I also run my speakers at 120hz, so i am not really using much of their low end capabilities anyway.

The positive is like Geoff said, better sound stage, and smoother transitions. Running the same speakers set to the same frequency all around does help to smooth out the flow and seems to somewhat imrove your overall experience.

Because of the placement issues, I personally don't think it's worth it, but if you have a dedicated HT room and don't have placement issues/restrictions, then by all means, do it!