n00b Diagnosed w/ Audiophilia, Wife Reports Finding Money Pit in Spare Bedroom

jgauthiersloan

Howdy, folks,

I'm planning to build a dedicated listening room in my new house. I'll be building this system from the ground up with a modest budget. I started off aiming to keep it under a grand, which quickly ballooned to $1500, but has since been shaved back a bit thanks to some awesome deals I'm tracking. I've got a LONG list of questions, both dumb and uninformed. Hopefully you fellers can help me make good decisions and I can share the glory of the finished product. Here's where I'm leaning at the moment:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882683030
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290209
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290213
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290203
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290035
and finally
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290194

I quickly eliminated the satellite speakers from the design for lack of room. I figured if there wasn't a spot in the room that was devoid of sound (meaning they would effectively be hung above the towers or bookshelves) they would be redundant and possibly even harmful. This means I'm assuming a 5.1 system will perform better than 7.1 in my basically 9'x11'x8' space.
-Is this sound logic?
-See what I did there?

My top priority is a receiver that will connect wifi to my laptop out of the box (no adapters) and that I can operate with my iphone. Perhaps my proudest point will be no disc players. I'm not even putting a tv in this room. All of my CD's are ripped, uploaded and archived; and I've finally got everything converted to ALAC, so I no longer need multiple media players for multiple file types. The home network machines all stream from the main itunes on my laptop, with no media files stored on any of the other machines. All of my music is housed on my external hd and backed up at google.music. This is why the wifi receiver is a must. I don't want to plug anything into the receiver if I can help it. I'm thinking a brain box connected to noisemakers and nothing else will be a minimalist beauty :idea:.

I plan to soundproof and treat for acoustics before I bring anything in. The room shares a wall with the bedroom so I need to get this right or I'll be shopping for headphones in no time! I need to do it on the cheap, though. I'm leaning towards a case of 12 heavy moving blankets so I can cover the ceiling as well.
-Is this overkill?
-Is it possible to overdampen a room this small given the distance from ear-to-driver (3' for each)?
I was thinking I would also put cheap pillows in the tricorners and hope I don't need further bass reducers in the corners.
-Would those round pool toy foam noodles work for this?

Iv'e come up with a design that allows 18" from the side and back wall for each tower with the bookshelves mounted. All four will be toed-in to the center point.
-Is this correct?

The sub will go in a corner, receiver on the middle of a wall with the center channel directly above. The CC would be about chin-high to me standing, over my head sitting.
-Is this OK?
-Is there any need for or way to squeeze another set of speakers in here?

My design provides an equal 3' to each channel from the listening position. I assumed symmetry was the way to go.
-Is this the ideal distance for the speakers I linked?
-Does the number of drivers in each box affect this at all?

-Is this too much power for a 9x11 room?
It's more about clarity than volume for me but I'd like a consistent clarity at any volume. I definitely don't want something that's build for high volumes that might underperform when turned really low. I want it to sound perfect when it's barely on.
-Is a sub really necessary with these speakers in this size room?
-Should I be thinking about something smaller for the rears rather than buying bookshelves for this purpose?
-Am I on the right track or totally off my rocker?

If it helps, the room has two windows- one on the wall opposite the receiver/center channel (behind the towers) and one on a side wall. This means the CC is facing a window and the towers are setup like the rears (relative to the CC's location). I don't want to cover the window or put the receiver under it.
-How bad a trade-off is it to have the CC pointed right at a window and opposite the towers? I'm hoping with sound coming in from every direction and none of it reflecting that it won't matter. I have no idea what I'm doing.

I cannot wait to see what turns up here. I drew up my design with pencil and graph paper. I could scan it in if anyone wants to see it (or I could do it in excel but I really don't wanna) but I think I described it pretty well above.

newrival

I'm curious as to why you're setting up a surround sound system. If it's for music off your computer (ripped from CD's which are 2 channel only), and you're not having a tv in there. You would be better served getting a pair of bookshelves, a sub, an integrated amp, and a squeezebox touch. $1500 can achieve what I mentioned and will be more suitable for the room and the listening you seem to want to be doing

Serendipity

Welcome to Club Polk!

Just some pointers -

1. Go for it, that Denon is a very nice receiver. I have the AVR-5800 and it ROCKS!

2. Good choice for speakers, I'm sure the Monitor 70's will sound nice.

3. A 5.1 setup may perform better if there is no room for proper speaker placement.

4. I'd rather have no rear speakers than have speakers that are not set up properly.

5. Room treatments can make a significant difference depending on the room.

newrival

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

Howdy, folks,

I'm planning to build a dedicated listening room in my new house. I'll be building this system from the ground up with a modest budget. I started off aiming to keep it under a grand, which quickly ballooned to $1500, but has since been shaved back a bit thanks to some awesome deals I'm tracking. I've got a LONG list of questions, both dumb and uninformed. Hopefully you fellers can help me make good decisions and I can share the glory of the finished product. Here's where I'm leaning at the moment:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882683030
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290209
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290213
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290203
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290035
and finally
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290194

I quickly eliminated the satellite speakers from the design for lack of room. I figured if there wasn't a spot in the room that was devoid of sound (meaning they would effectively be hung above the towers or bookshelves) they would be redundant and possibly even harmful. This means I'm assuming a 5.1 system will perform better than 7.1 in my basically 9'x11'x8' space.
-Is this sound logic?
-See what I did there?

why surround sound at all???

My top priority is a receiver that will connect wifi to my laptop out of the box (no adapters) and that I can operate with my iphone. Perhaps my proudest point will be no disc players. I'm not even putting a tv in this room. All of my CD's are ripped, uploaded and archived; and I've finally got everything converted to ALAC, so I no longer need multiple media players for multiple file types. The home network machines all stream from the main itunes on my laptop, with no media files stored on any of the other machines. All of my music is housed on my external hd and backed up at google.music. This is why the wifi receiver is a must. I don't want to plug anything into the receiver if I can help it. I'm thinking a brain box connected to noisemakers and nothing else will be a minimalist beauty :idea:.

squeezebox touch seems a better option, better functionality, better looks

I plan to soundproof and treat for acoustics before I bring anything in. The room shares a wall with the bedroom so I need to get this right or I'll be shopping for headphones in no time! I need to do it on the cheap, though. I'm leaning towards a case of 12 heavy moving blankets so I can cover the ceiling as well.
-Is this overkill?
-Is it possible to overdampen a room this small given the distance from ear-to-driver (3' for each)?
I was thinking I would also put cheap pillows in the tricorners and hope I don't need further bass reducers in the corners.
-Would those round pool toy foam noodles work for this?

Iv'e come up with a design that allows 18" from the side and back wall for each tower with the bookshelves mounted. All four will be toed-in to the center point.
-Is this correct?

yes, it is possible to overdamp a room, others here are better equip to comment

The sub will go in a corner, receiver on the middle of a wall with the center channel directly above. The CC would be about chin-high to me standing, over my head sitting.
-Is this OK?
-Is there any need for or way to squeeze another set of speakers in here?

this is fine but angle it to the listening level

My design provides an equal 3' to each channel from the listening position. I assumed symmetry was the way to go.
-Is this the ideal distance for the speakers I linked?
-Does the number of drivers in each box affect this at all?

this is very close, but can be ok i guess. equidistant is best, but AVR's can compensate with time alignment if they arent.

-Is this too much power for a 9x11 room?
It's more about clarity than volume for me but I'd like a consistent clarity at any volume. I definitely don't want something that's build for high volumes that might underperform when turned really low. I want it to sound perfect when it's barely on.
-Is a sub really necessary with these speakers in this size room?
-Should I be thinking about something smaller for the rears rather than buying bookshelves for this purpose?
-Am I on the right track or totally off my rocker?

If it helps, the room has two windows- one on the wall opposite the receiver/center channel (behind the towers) and one on a side wall. This means the CC is facing a window and the towers are setup like the rears (relative to the CC's location). I don't want to cover the window or put the receiver under it.
-How bad a trade-off is it to have the CC pointed right at a window and opposite the towers? I'm hoping with sound coming in from every direction and none of it reflecting that it won't matter. I have no idea what I'm doing.

I cannot wait to see what turns up here. I drew up my design with pencil and graph paper. I could scan it in if anyone wants to see it (or I could do it in excel but I really don't wanna) but I think I described it pretty well above.

[/quote]

again, the main question is why surround sound???
surround is mostly for video or dvda/sacd surround audio, which it doesnt sound like you will have. Also, the Denon will not be easy to use without a monitor. Nor will it be fantastic for music. I understand getting caught up in all the tech, but if listening to your ripped CD's and audio clarity is of primary importance, look at 2 channel solutions.

jgauthiersloan

Wow, thanks for the quick posts! I didn't know CDs were only 2ch. Most. My stuff is flac->alac or (unfortunately) mp3. The other stuff you said is why over my head. n00b'd

Would a pair of well placed speakers be better than what I proposed above?

newrival

Serendipity wrote: »

Welcome to Club Polk!

Just some pointers -

1. Go for it, that Denon is a very nice receiver. I have the AVR-5800 and it ROCKS!

2. Good choice for speakers, I'm sure the Monitor 70's will sound nice.

3. A 5.1 setup may perform better if there is no room for proper speaker placement.

4. I'd rather have no rear speakers than have speakers that are not set up properly.

5. Room treatments can make a significant difference depending on the room.

you would recommend all this for listening to CD's? keep in mind he wont have a TV in here which will make the AVR setup challenging. Maybe I am not understanding the goals here... Make no mistake, the OP has chosen nice equipment for their budget, but for listening to CD's, the money could be spent far better.

jgauthiersloan

so 2ch is generally better for music? i didn't know that. i should just be looking at a pair of towers then? again, most of my music is not actually from cds but i do have a lot from them.

jgauthiersloan

this will def be a music-only setup. should i slow down with hanging all the blankets? is there a comparable device with respect to wifi & iphone operation and wattage? would a well-placed pair be better for my purposes?

cnh

Welcome to Club Polk!

Well let's put it this way. If you go two channel you'll end up buying an integrated amp or separates, investing "more" money in your only speakers, etc.

For 1500 you could get some Polk Lsis and a NAD or Cambridge Audio to run them which would be a step up from a Denon AVR and M-70s for just "music"? The combo you have there would be fine for HT, though!

If you want to stay with what you have above. At least get a better sub?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882290227

The PSW10 won't add much of anything to M-70 towers that reach almost as LOW as it does!

Enjoy!

cnh

jgauthiersloan

I'd also like to get some nice wireless speakers that I could carry from room to room and outside. I scratched that off the wishlist pretty early but it may be back on the table, if such a thing exists. I haven't found a pair of good wireless speakers yet. I would also love to wire another room if it had a switch on it (obv) and fit within my budget.

jgauthiersloan

thanks, @cnh. do i need a sub in this tiny room tho?

newrival

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

Wow, thanks for the quick posts! I didn't know CDs were only 2ch. Most. My stuff is flac->alac or (unfortunately) mp3. The other stuff you said is why over my head. n00b'd

Would a pair of well placed speakers be better than what I proposed above?

Yes. CD's are only 2ch.
flac, alac, mp3 are all going to be 2ch. A pair of well placed speakers will be far better. Additionally, you can get better speakers.

Here is how I might spend your money utilizing Polk speakers:

Polk Lsi9: http://www.ebay.com/itm/PAIR-LSi9-Cherry-Bookshelf-Loudspeakers-Polk-Audio-/360372065664?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item53e7d95580#ht_4882wt_838

Cambridge Audio Azure 350a: http://app.audiogon.com/listings/457656

Squeezebox Touch: http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-930-000090-Squeezebox-Touch/dp/B002LARRDA/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1327253144&sr=1-1

REL T2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/REL-Accoustics-T2-Subwoofer-BEST-THERE-/120843834344?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item1c22da93e8#ht_500wt_1070

right around $1500 and would be a killer system and huge potential for upgrade modifications and would easily outperform the system you were considering

jgauthiersloan

ok, if i get the squeezbox, then what do i need to power the speakers?

newrival

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

so 2ch is generally better for music? i didn't know that. i should just be looking at a pair of towers then? again, most of my music is not actually from cds but i do have a lot from them.

nearly all music is recorded in 2 channels

jgauthiersloan

ooooooweeeeee that looks dope! would less expensive speakers to get me back >$1k be worth it? I mean, you get what you pay for either way, but you know.

newrival

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

ok, if i get the squeezbox, then what do i need to power the speakers?

You will need an integrated amplifier, or amplifier and pre-amplifier. The integrated will be your best option here. It's a great place to get your feet wet and simplify components and lessen the cabling needed.

The SB will connect via wifi to your network stored music, you connect the SB to the integrated amp, then connect the integrated amp to your speakers. pretty simple. You also connect your sub to the integrated amp.

newrival

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

ooooooweeeeee that looks dope! would less expensive speakers to get me back >$1k be worth it? I mean, you get what you pay for either way, but you know.

Cheaper speakers will obviously bring the price down, but I believe in sinking the $ into the speakers and upgrade the other stuff down the road. Speakers can have the biggest effect on sound in your system. IMO it is best to invest in a great set of speakers. The Lsi9's are very nice, and like I mentioned, can be upgraded down the road to make them even better.

jgauthiersloan

I understand the Denon having the added capability I don't plan to use, but can you explain what makes it inferior for music listening? If I end up going with the Denon will i still need another component?

thanks again for all the handholding here. I know these are dumb questions. I appreciate it

newrival

think of it this way:

company A is spending $500 on components to assemble an AVR that is primarily going to be used for AV. HDMI switching, DACs, Processors, and another hundred compoents necessary to compete with other AVRs.

company B is spending $500 on components to assemble an integrated amp that is only concerned with making it the best 2ch device it can be with the money they are spending.

which do you think will has 2 channel playback in mind?

sometimes AVRs do 2ch pretty well, but it usually costs quite a bit more. almost always, you get a lot more for you money if you get the device that is specific to what you need.

newrival

There are thousands of integrated amps out there. the azure is a well respected line.
you can check out more here: http://www.stereophile.com/category/integrated-amp-reviews?page=1

or just run "integrated amp" through bing and see all thats available

WagBoss

I'd get a 2.0 system with some nice towers like lsi15's if its only for music. You really shouldn't get surround sound for music, it only makes it worse. 2.0 or 2.1 is for music.

Upstatemax

If budget is a concern, don't forget the HK 3490...

I agree with the LSi bookshelfs. A lot of speaker for the money.

Serendipity

newrival wrote: »

you would recommend all this for listening to CD's? keep in mind he wont have a TV in here which will make the AVR setup challenging. Maybe I am not understanding the goals here... Make no mistake, the OP has chosen nice equipment for their budget, but for listening to CD's, the money could be spent far better.

Look, this is what I would recommend if it were my system and were based on my uses. There are CD's that are 5.1, such as the DTS Music Disc (basically, Redbook CD encoded in DTS format) that play like CDs but send a DTS stream to your receiver. What about multichannel 96/24? I listen to 96/24 on almost a daily basis and regularly choose the 5.1 version over the 2-channel version.

It's all about how you use your system and what you prefer. Personally, I have a mix of ordinary CD's, 96/24, and DVD-Audio, which are all music discs. Some channels on XM Radio are also 5.1, but I don't know if the OP is using that. I also have Zone 2 speakers in the backyard.

Serendipity

Maybe I am misunderstanding.

To me, Music Listening equals...
1. Redbook CD's
2. Cassette Tapes
3. Concert DVD's
4. DVD-Audio
5. XM Radio
6. Pandora
7. Vinyl (don't have)

jgauthiersloan

My wife has only two reasonable requests with respect to my hobbies: no fantasy sports and no vinyl. Those are two deep ends that she just won't follow me into.
So no vinyl or tapes of any kind these days. almost everything is 2ch but I guess I'd like the option l grow into other inputs without changing out too many parts.

I would like to add a zone 2 as a separate project. I could just use the 2nd pair for that from the beginning and skip the center channel, spending that money instead on a better sub?
I'm still in the stage where more drivers=more value sea logical. I need to see more for my money than those LSi's offer. I'm considering the DAC-amp 2ch setup but if I have to buy airport express or the like that's a deal breaker.

It's all goin iTunes->speakers somehow. It's just a question of more channels or more watts/ch it seems.

If I'm playing a 2ch recording through <2ch there are redundancies all around me? Is it worse than that in terms of what I hear? I don't want focus on the speaker. I want it to sound like it's inside my head, just like I does in the live setting. Ubiquitous sound. But not headphones.

Serendipity

Like stated before, it's all a matter of personal preference. From what others are saying, it looks like a 2 channel system would be best for you. However, I just wanted to point out some shortcomings when using such gear and integrating it into your system.

You mention "almost everything is 2ch" but also would "like the option to grow into other inputs". Will you ever listen to multichannel 96/24 recordings? Do you have a desire for high-res formats such as SACD and DVD-Audio? Do you have a satellite radio subscription and want to take advantage of the 5.1 channels on XM Radio? I personally do, but you can go either way. Lots of options out there depending on your needs.

jgauthiersloan

I have very little 96/24 or high res discs to date, but it would be a bummer to have this all set up and be restricted to 2 channels in those rare instances. Internet radio doesn't interest me at this time but that could change with the business models. Spotify and turntable.fm would be the most comparable services I use. Couldn't I just run XM off my laptop if I were so inclined? I've never tried.

Not sure if it makes any difference, but a high percentage of what I'll be spinning is audience recordings of live performances. I want to recreate the sound field as accurately as possible so I can detect the differences in the settings and equipment used for these pulls. As you may well know, some people can even detect the mic's relative positions from the stage when sampling multiple sources from the same performance. I'd love to achieve that level of precision. Hope that helps.

Also, some or all of this could be used as part of an AV setup to come later, although I have no plans to do so. My zone 2 would be music-only as well.

Serendipity

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

I have very little 96/24 or high res discs to date, but it would be a bummer to have this all set up and be restricted to 2 channels in those rare instances.

Looks like you answered your own question. Again, it's really personal preference.

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

Not sure if it makes any difference, but a high percentage of what I'll be spinning is audience recordings of live performances. I want to recreate the sound field as accurately as possible so I can detect the differences in the settings and equipment used for these pulls. As you may well know, some people can even detect the mic's relative positions from the stage when sampling multiple sources from the same performance.

On my gear, usage like you are describing sounds better in surround. YMMV.

jgauthiersloan wrote: »

My zone 2 would be music-only as well.

You would need a receiver, or a pre with Zone 2 outputs to do this. Most 2 channel gear does not have Zone 2 outputs. As a result, it looks like a receiver would work better for you.

jgauthiersloan

Thanks @seren. I'm leaning back towards my original proposal. I stand to get some killer deals on the pieces I linked at the top. I'm looking at paying roughly 40% of true market value or about 25% of MSRP in total on those pieces. Gonna be hard to pass that up. I know that Denon AV-1912 supports 2 zones and would also give me the outside wireless option without needing an external adapter or router.

Suppose I go multichannel. Should I be looking at smaller satellite speakers to support the towers instead of those big ole' bookshelves?

Serendipity

How would he power Zone 2 speakers with a 2 channel setup?

PSOVLSK

Serendipity wrote: »

How would he power Zone 2 speakers with a 2 channel setup?

I have a Rotel 1050 Stereo Receiver with a Rotel amp powering Zone 2. In the past I've had a separate amp for my 2-channel set-up, but I'm currently using the 1050 to power the indoor speakers.

Insisting on Zone 2 limits your options for sure and I speak from experience.

I'd try to find a way to make it work with LSi9's (or even 7's) for your 2-channel. I think you'll be much happier.