Toslink out from computer: Onboard vs X-Fi Titanium HD or Asus Xonar Essence

pyrocyborg

I am thinking about something: I've seen that my PC motherboard (high-end ASUS from a few years back) has a toslink out on the onboard soundchip. I know it sounds weird, but I have no soundcard except from the onboard one.

As for my "low-fi" system, I currently have an entry level Yamaha AV receiver, but I mostly uses it for musical use with 2 Polk RTI6 speakers. My PC is my main music source, and I am currently using a Playstation 3 media server to stream my FLAC files and play it on my receiver, which is cumbersome.

I want to play my music from my PC only, as for now, I have to open my TV, my PS3, my receiver and my PC to listen to any music.

I've seen really great reviews about both the PCI-Express X-FI Titanium HD and the ASUS Xonar Essence STX. I know those cards are supposed to be great DAC, and so to speak, people seems to like their analog performances. What I can't seem to find is any answer concerning the actual performances of the digital output.

If I buy, let's say, the X-Fi Titanium HD, would it sound better via toslink than by onboard one or does the toslink bypass most of the X-Fi card's better components (which are used for analog/headphones output)? I wanna know if it's of any uses for an AV receiver (i.e. is the toslink, weither it's from a basic card or a most expensive one, has the same overall sound quality?) or should I buy a less expensive sound card (let's say the X-Fi Titanium non-HD or the Fatal1ty) as the sound quality would be the same while using an optical out?

I don't really mind paying a little bit more if it offers me better overall performances.

Thanks!

EndersShadow

If you are using toslink/optical or coaxial out of your motherboard, your not using the DAC's in the soundcard. That is why you wont read about the performance of its DAC's when using it. DAC stands for Digital to Analog Converter. So if your sending the signal out Digitally, the next device in the chain (in this case your AVR) is whats doing the decoding.

So if your going to use optical, it wont matter really which soundcard your using, the onboard, or the expensive internal one. It should all sound the same since your AVR is doing the conversion.

If your using RCA, THEN your using the DAC's in the soundcard. While the soundcards are decent, a better alternative would be to get a USB Digital Analog Converter (DAC), rather than a better internal soundcard. I would recommend the Musiland Monitor 02. Its 125 dollars so I believe its actually cheaper than the soundcards you mentioned, AND its got a better DAC from what I have read.

Then all you would need would be a set of good RCA interconnects (Signal Cable, MIT, etc) and you would be cooking!

pyrocyborg

Great and fast answer! Thanks a lot! I just read about the DAC being used only if you use the analog output. So, saying that my Yammy is an entry level one, it's DAC must be... crappy at best, right?

So, if I buy a USB DAC, all i'll need to do, is to connect this DAC to my receiver with RCA interconnects and let the DAC do the decoding?

Edit: Those RCA cables might be overkill for my budget... lol

EndersShadow

pyrocyborg wrote: »

So, saying that my Yammy is an entry level one, it's DAC must be... crappy at best, right?

It might be, it might not be. Its hard to know without having a model number.

pyrocyborg wrote: »

So, if I buy a USB DAC, all i'll need to do, is to connect this DAC to my receiver with RCA interconnects and let the DAC do the decoding?

Yes, you will install a program on your computer that plays FLAC (MediaMonkey is my recommendation). Then connect the USB DAC to your computers USB port. It will install the needed drivers (or install them off a disc if it comes with one) and then connect it to a set of RCA in's on your Yamaha.

You would control what's playing from your computer. The USB DAC does the decoding, and the Yamaha is only being used to power your speakers. Also you would control the volume with your AVR, NOT the computer (for the Musiland USB DAC at least).

pyrocyborg

Thanks again. Will a DAC affect the sound? I mean, as the DAC will do the decoding, will it change the sound as the receiver would mainly do the amplification?

Also, my Yamaha model is HTR-6230, which is a "big box" entry level receiver (sub 300)

EndersShadow

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Will a DAC affect the sound? I mean, as the DAC will do the decoding, will it change the sound as the receiver would mainly do the amplification?

Yes, a DAC's will change how the music sounds, since its in charge of changing the digital signal to an analog one. The Musiland Monitor is a good DAC and should make the music sound better than your Yamaha. Also if you purchase the Musiland you could test that since it has both digital (like your motherboard) and analog outs. You would use the Analog ones since you want to use the DAC in the Musiland, but you could connect both and switch inputs on your AVR to hear the differences for yourself.

The digital out is normally used by people that simply want to use the Musiland for its USB conversion and send the digital signal to a better DAC that they have.

pyrocyborg

Thanks! I guess people with great AVR or Pre-amp/Amp with already gread integrated DAC wouldn't need an external DAC. So an external DAC will be my next buy (I was currently thinking about getting a new "better" receiver but if a DAC could have an almost similar impact, it would be great).

Any idea on a good brand of cheaper RCA interconnects as I don't think I'll be able to ditch 200$ on a pair of RCA cables... :P

quadzilla

signal cable or blue jean cables.

EndersShadow

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Thanks! I guess people with great AVR or Pre-amp/Amp with already gread integrated DAC wouldn't need an external DAC. So an external DAC will be my next buy (I was currently thinking about getting a new "better" receiver but if a DAC could have an almost similar impact, it would be great).

Any idea on a good brand of cheaper RCA interconnects as I don't think I'll be able to ditch 200$ on a pair of RCA cables... :P

Right now MIT is having a sale on their EXp interconnects at a very good price. I picked up the EXp1's (highest in the EXp line) for 38.40 for a set of 6 footers (link). SignalCable makes good interconnects as well (link), and I right now use their Analog 2's. You also get a discount if you mention your a Club Polk member.

Both those sets of Interconnects would be a very good place to start and you might not ever need to upgrade from there

pyrocyborg

Allright! Thanks again Quad and Enders. I'm currently broke (Merry Christmas... lol), but I'll buy a DAC and quality RCA cables as soon as I can. I learned a lot of things today, from both of you! I'm less dumb than I was before (but there is still a lot of things to learn).

Another thing: I've seen that there is the Musiland Monitor 03 US. Don't know if it's any better than the 02... it's supposed to get to 348 khz, but hell, I have no audio over 44 khz or 48... lol

EndersShadow

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Another thing: I've seen that there is the Musiland Monitor 03 US. Don't know if it's any better than the 02... it's supposed to get to 348 khz, but hell, I have no audio over 44 khz or 48... lol

Good to know, didnt know there was a new version out. Will have to look at it .

P.S. its all about the journey and not being afraid to ask questions.

pyrocyborg

Hi again!

There is a lot of choice in sub 250$ DAC... makes the decision hard to get. So many conflicting information, and most users are using headsets directly from a PC, not speakers from a receiver...

So there is :
- HRT MS2
- Musiland Monitor 02 or 03
- Uber Muzik Tiny Tube Dac
- NuForce u-DAc2 ... and many more!

EndersShadow

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Hi again!

There is a lot of choice in sub 250$ DAC... makes the decision hard to get. So many conflicting information, and most users are using headsets directly from a PC, not speakers from a receiver...

So there is :
- HRT MS2
- Musiland Monitor 02 or 03
- Uber Muzik Tiny Tube Dac
- NuForce u-DAc2 ... and many more!

Well H9 on this forum is using the Musiland Monitor 02, NewRival is using the HRT Media Streamer. Not sure if anyone using the other 2 DAC's here.

There are lots of posts on this topic so I would suggest you read up on them.

Also add the MusicFidelity VDAC.

Of those I would go with the Musiland or the HRT, but personally the Musiland so if you get a better DAC at a later date you can still use the Musiland.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I would recommend the Musical Fidelity V-DAC in that price range. I'm not a big fan of the HRT or the NuForce options, can't comment on the other two listed.

pyrocyborg

Okay thanks again everyone.

Another thing that bothers me... A lot of people tells there is not a big difference between an external DAC and a AVR DAC...

From what I understand, the DAC does the digital to analog conversion, and when the DAC is crappy, the whole thing could sound as crappy. Is it the DAC that color or gives texture to the sound? I mean, is the DAC responsible, for example, of the Yamaha sound, or the HK sound, and so on, or is it both the DAC and the amplifier internals (I would suppose it's the second case)?

So my real question is : Is it logical to pay 300$ for a DAC to connect it to a 300$ entry-level receiver? (i.e. would the receiver lower components negates any gain from the DAC?) I know it will help to get my music from my PC, but I could do that with my toslink equiped Motherboard if it's to get the same overall effect.

So, it bugs me to another choice : Is it better to buy a 200-300$ DAC or to sell my AVR and put that same amount on a better amp from which I could connect my PC through toslink anyways (as I could do now)? Or is the DAC a crucial component when using a PC or crappy CD/DVD player as a source?

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

...A lot of people tells there is not a big difference between an external DAC and a AVR DAC...

Anyone who says this:

A) has never heard a good external DAC
has never heard a good external DAC on good equipment

or

C) has terrible ears

period.

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

...Is it the DAC that color or gives texture to the sound? I mean, is the DAC responsible, for example, of the Yamaha sound, or the HK sound, and so on, or is it both the DAC and the amplifier internals (I would suppose it's the second case)?

DAC, preamp section, power amp section... all of it. Everything matters.

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

...I guess people with great AVR or Pre-amp/Amp with already gread integrated DAC wouldn't need an external DAC.

Not true. The best DAC's are external. Generally people with a great preamp/amp also have a great external DAC.

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Is it logical to pay 300$ for a DAC to connect it to a 300$ entry-level receiver?

In your case? I say no.

I think that any 200'ish dollar DAC will be comparable to the DAC in your Yamaha.


This is what I would do:

- Buy Musiland Monitor 02 (or 03): PC > USB out > Musiland > Digital out > Yamaha > speakers

- Sell Yamaha; replace with separate 2-channel preamp and 2-channel poweramp: PC > USB out > Musiland > Analog out > 2-channel preamp > 2-channel power amp > speakers

- Buy good external DAC: PC > USB out > Musiland > Digital out > External DAC > 2-channel preamp > 2-channel poweramp > speakers

- Sell RTI6's; replace with better speakers: PC > USB out > Musiland > Digital out > External DAC > 2-channel preamp > 2-channel poweramp > better speakers



Now continue this pattern until you have no money left for rent, bills, or food.

falconcry72

Welcome to the Club, btw.


Did we mention we like to spend pother people's money?:biggrin:

pyrocyborg

Thanks Falcon! If this way, my money is better spent, well, it's allright :P

There is one thing I don't understand: Why getting a Musiland 02 if I can use the toslink output from my PC (crappy onboard chip) to my receiver and achieve the same sound (or roughly, a similar quality one)... And is there any uses in getting a 200$ DAC except if you have an old receiver that doesn't do digital conversion or if your receiver doesn't have any digital input (like most stereo receiver?).

For your other suggestions, I think I'll do it one day! I'll buy a better amp / pre-amp combo one day... For now then, I guess I'll keep my stuff. Too bad I can't get a better sound from my receiver (which is fine for the price, but I would gladly take anything better). If I understand everything correctly, to achieve a good sound with a good amp/pre-amp without a digital input, you must have a good DAC to do that job: if you take an entry-level one, your sound will be tainted?

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

Why getting a Musiland 02 if I can use the toslink output from my PC (crappy onboard chip) to my receiver and achieve the same sound (or roughly, a similar quality one)...

One reason is that, in my above-mentioned line of upgrades, you'd eventually have an all analog preamp and poweramp, so the Musiland would have to be your DAC in that situation, until you got the external DAC. Also, the onboard Toslink output from your PC is going to have a lot of jitter.

I used to use, and still own, an ASUS Xonar Essence ST internal sound card. It's a very good sound card, and its digital output is good, but it's not as good as a properly implemented USB > SPDIF or USB DAC solution.

By "properly implemeted" I mean that you'd be running a media player like Foobar 2000, Media Monkey, or J River that is compatible with bit-perfect playback, ie; ASIO, or WASAPI.



But yea, you can use the Toslink out from your PC, and it will sound good.

pyrocyborg

Allright! So, if I use a Toslink from my PC with crappy onboard, there will be some jitters: my source will be crappy and my sound will be affected. It is almost better to get a good sound card to prevent those jitters, or a DAC in case I upgrade to a dedicated stereo system, which I may do in a few years (or less, if my parents buy my Yammy for their HT... )

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

It is almost better to get a good sound card to prevent those jitters...

It's still better to get an external USB > SPDIF converter than it is to get an internal sound card. The Xonar Essence card i referenced above is about as good as it gets for an internal hifi card, and my Musical Fidelity V-Link USB > SPDIF converter sounds better and costs half as much.

pyrocyborg

falconcry72 wrote: »

It's still better to get an external USB > SPDIF converter than it is to get an internal sound card. The Xonar Essence card i referenced above is about as good as it gets for an internal hifi card, and my Musical Fidelity V-Link USB > SPDIF converter sounds better and costs half as much.

I never tought about the Musical Fidelity V-Link... I tought it was an earlier version of the V-DAC, but after taking a peek on their website, I can see this is a different machine entirely. I suppose it doesn't include a DAC and is simply a way to convert your PC music from USB to a coaxial or toslink output? This way, how is it affecting sound quality if it doesn't convert by itself? Is it because it reduces jitters to a non-existant level?

Also, what about digital cables quality if I ever uses one with, let's say the V-Link? (e.g. Toslink). Are we talking about "bits are bits" so either the cable works or it doesn't, or can a low cost cable (e.g. Monoprice) creates some jitters or anomalies in the sound, tainting the whole system?

From what I understand so far, an analog cable must be of good quality (on-par with the system) as it will affect the sound somehow: putting a 2$ RCA interconnect on a 1000$ stereo rig is pure non-sense as is a 200$ cable on a 200$ stereo receiver. However, I find my monoprices digital cables to be of decent quality when it comes to HDMI (having compared them to Monster and other big brands, I coudln't find any difference in blind test for video quality). What I didn't do, is a musical fidelity test between good quality digital and poor quality ones... Anyway, I really don't care about HDMI as I only use my PS3 for movies and games (maybe 20% of my listening time), but if I use a toslink output from my computer, it better be the best I can get for the money.

Thanks again for your help. There is a lot of questions pounding in my head and I really like the fact that there is people out there willing to help me.

falconcry72

pyrocyborg wrote: »

I suppose it doesn't include a DAC and is simply a way to convert your PC music from USB to a coaxial or toslink output?

Correct.

...how is it affecting sound quality if it doesn't convert by itself?

It doesn't. That's why it's good.

Also, what about digital cables quality...

Everything matters, but in my experience the quality of a Digital Coax cable matters more than the quality of a Toslink cable.

pyrocyborg

falconcry72 wrote: »

It doesn't. That's why it's good.

.

Thanks again! But I quite don't understand why you said it sounded better than your Asus Xonar Essence... Is it because it has virtually no jitters when using V-Link versus the Asus soundcard?

This way, I could use the V-Link and connect it with a coaxial cable to my AVR which will do the DAC. If it's to do the same job than a 200-300$ DAC at the moment (cause I already have a similar quality DAC in my receiver), I guess it's a great alternative to a soundcard. If I understand well, I will be able to use it later if I am to buy a new integrated amp or pre-amp/amp combo with a quality external DAC.

It won't increase my sound quality (except lowering possible jitters... but as I was using an ethernet connexion to stream to my PS3, I don't know if it will sound better or not), but it will be a direct link from my PC to my receiver, which is great as my PS3 and TV will be off most of the time now (better electrity bill... well, it's kinda cheap here, but at least maybe those two will live a little bit longer now).

I guess it's better to do this for now than buying a 300$ DAC for a 300$ receiver. However, just as an in information, how would a 300$ DAC sound with a let's say, a 700$ integrated amp? Would it make it sound cheap or is it a good price to pay in comparison to the rest of the system?

I just quite don't understand how they manage to do a 300$ AVR with the same quality DAC than a external DAC of the same price. They cheap out on the amplification components or what? lol...

And by the way, thanks again everyone to take the time to read my 50 lines long questions and to answer them with an infinite precision. I know I may be a pain to read as my grammar is far from perfect... English isn't my primary language, as you might have seen.

pyrocyborg

Also... what would be better, Toslink or Coaxial as my AVR can uses both?