Tubes-Why are NOS tubes better?

brgman

With all of the advances in technology since the 50's and 60's how come no one can seem to make tubes that are as desirable as the NOS stuff?
We here how warm and musical these old tubes are so why can't we get new stuff that should be even better?

heiney9

Already answered that in detail in another thread, I'll see if I can find it.

Advances did not bode well for tube production, it's actually hindered it.

brgman

I looked around but didn't see it.
Of course i also searched 2.3tl in vintage speakers and that didn't come up either lol.

disneyjoe7

NOS New old stock, never used tubes. Also they where built when Tubes Ruled, SS didn't sound great. They needed to be build great to sound ok. Today not so since they just build to be built, think Wallmart just to be on the shelf.

sucks2beme

This is a case of technology in production. Current tube production is rather small.
The old communist production stuff wasn't really designed for audio. A lot of
engineering knowledge was lost when they closed down tube production.
As I'm fond of quoting, low tech don't mean no tech. Years of little tricks and
gotchas in the process were lost and given the small market, they really can't
put a lot of research into it. They can't make a Stradivarius either.

heiney9

Some of the materials used back then have been banned today as an environmental hazard. The quality of the materials that are still allowed to be used aren't as pure or as good. The machining and capable craftsmen aren't near as good, and today it's a commodity and it's done to maximize profit so corners are cut to stay profitable. Back then you had very large corporations that could absorb more costs and still stay profitable. Not today.

Tube manufacturing was dying in the late 70's and never benefited from what you call "advances in technology" you don't move along and advance a process that is essentially a dead dinosaur. The phrase "they don't make them like they used too" fits current tube manufacturing process better than anything.

That said there are some companies that after about 15 years now of re-manufacturing that are just now starting to make some comparable tubes.

Case in point the SED Winged 'C' EL34 is a very nice tube, but you'll notice the price has shot up too in the past year. There are other's but you pay $$$ for them and IMO, the small signal tubes that are supposedly cream of the crop today still don't compare to the well known vintage NOS tubes.

H9

sucks2beme

Add to the fray that different makers of a tube family did it different and add their own sound
signature. Power or preamp tubes made by RCA sounded a bit different that a Mullard, or another
brand. So which sound would you try to clone?

scottyboy76

very interesting conversation there.

brgman

All this makes sense.I guess i hadn't thought about the points being made here.Thanks

F1nut

Shuguang Treasure and Psvane tubes are excellent by any standard and are that way as a result of the advances in technology.

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

Some of the materials used back then have been banned today as an environmental hazard. The quality of the materials that are still allowed to be used aren't as pure or as good. The machining and capable craftsmen aren't near as good, and today it's a commodity and it's done to maximize profit so corners are cut to stay profitable. Back then you had very large corporations that could absorb more costs and still stay profitable. Not today.

Tube manufacturing was dying in the late 70's and never benefited from what you call "advances in technology" you don't move along and advance a process that is essentially a dead dinosaur. The phrase "they don't make them like they used too" fits current tube manufacturing process better than anything.

That said there are some companies that after about 15 years now of re-manufacturing that are just now starting to make some comparable tubes.

Case in point the SED Winged 'C' EL34 is a very nice tube, but you'll notice the price has shot up too in the past year. There are other's but you pay $$$ for them and IMO, the small signal tubes that are supposedly cream of the crop today still don't compare to the well known vintage NOS tubes.

H9

That is a pretty darned good answer.

heiney9

F1nut wrote: »

Shuguang Treasure and Psvane tubes are excellent by any standard and are that way as a result of the advances in technology.

I would agree that th gap has been closed quite a bit by a few select vendors, but it has taken a long time and some trial and error, at the consumers expense, to get where we are today with a very small portion of the tubes made today that are now consistent in both repeatable sonic signature as well as longevity and failure rates. But again, you pay for it.

H9

acmf74

I use Psvane tubes and they sound remarkable.

sucks2beme

The new flying C 6550's are good. But like I said before, any of the better tubes have a higher cost.
There's just not enough volume to spread the cost of research across. So NOS will still rule until
they get rare(and $$$$) to force us to buy new premium tubes.

heiney9

Also be aware that just because a new production tube costs alot, doesn't automatically mean it's a nice sounding, long lasting tube. I have a hard time seperating the marketing speak, fancy packaging from the performance of the tube. I don't need a velvet lined box with serial numbers............just give me the damn tubes.

Other than a few trusted Polkies on here, some of the internet buzz for something like the PSVANE or Black Sable tubes comes from people who are only comparing to current issue tubes. Few people (besides some here) have actually compared them against some of the better NOS varieties, so for me their review is moot.

H9

inspiredsports

It's a simple economy of scale situation.

When the military, industry and everyone else required tubes, the R&D and money was spent to build out tube factories and improve the product.

We tube users in 2012 are a super-minority in the whole scheme of electronics usage today.

Additionally, in the past billions of quality tubes were produced for numerous applications (not necessarily audio). Audiophiles have had the benefit of time to sample through that great inventory of various tubes and determine "best of breed" for audio.

Much of the "R&D" for "audiophile" tubes was done by audiophiles listening to tubes built for applications that had nothing to do with sound quality.

I guess my point here is that even if current producers indend to produce an audiophile tube, they may not be able to do it.

thsmith

Treasure 6SN7 varient is better sounding and quieter than any NOS 6SN7 I have tried and I have tried many different top rated ones.

I found the Treasure KT88s to be on par from a sound perspective and a bit quieter than the Tung SOL 6550 NOS 3 hole tubes.

That is my expereince and YMMV.

I have not found a new tube that rivals Sylvania 5751 MP 3 Mica, Amperex 7316 and 6922s.

heiney9

Also keep in mind with the exception a few specialized tubes being made for audio (PSVANE come to mind) almost all tubes are sold for use in guitar amplifiers. They are looking for different characteristics than the typical audiophile.

dkg999

There are many good tubes, both new production and NOS, and there are crap tubes in both categories. It's just like anything else in audio, you have to be willing to try (and purchase) some different tubes and give them a try. You cannot make a blanket statement of NOS tubes are better than new production tubes. The tube that has the best synergy with your gear, room, and ears will be the best. In my phono pre I compared the highly rated and expensive RCA clear-top 12ax7 with the new production Sovtek LPS 12ax7. At about 10% of the cost the new production Sovtek tubes were scary close to the RCA's and better in many aspects.

You just have to be willing to experiment. In a double-blind, triple-dog-dare, biased-non-biased, A-B sample test most people couldn't tell the difference between NOS and new production tubes. YMMV.

Now NOS cables with vintage closed-grain copper, that's where you'll hear a significant improvement in sound