Mod: Replacing Speaker Connectors with Kester Solder

Serendipity

Over the weekend I decided to clean the dust out of my speakers and in the process of doing so, had to remove all the woofers and tweeters. When I put them back today, I clipped off the little "crimp" connectors that put pressure on the terminals of the drivers and replaced them with Kester high-quality solder.

The previous jumper wires looked like this:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-170

I cut all the ends off and just soldered the bare wire onto the drivers.

My equipment is the following:
Receiver: Denon AVR-5800
Mains: Definitive Technology BP10B
Sub: Polk Audio DSWPro550WI
Alternate Sub: DIY 15" Dayton Titanic MKIII

And for sources I have the following:
DVD-Audio Player: Panasonic DVD-F65
CD Player: Onkyo DV-CP500
Tape Deck: Aiwa CX-NMA555
Music Server: HP Digital Entertainment Center z560
XM Radio: Samsung NeXus 25

Well, the result? BIG difference in the way the mid-range sounded but the highs became brighter and more harsh. So I gained some definition in the mid-range but unfortunately have to set my Denon AVR-5800's tone controls to Bass: 0, Treble: -2. They used to be set at Bass: 0, Treble: 0.

So I have a dilemma. This prevents me from using the Pure Direct modes because I can't lower the treble when using Tone Defeat. And when the treble is set to 0dB the highs are just too harsh.

Would the addition of a Parasound Halo A51/A21 solve this?

quadzilla

Not sure why you'd be getting harshness, or if replacing anything would help. I did exactly that when I rebuilt my 2.3 TLs, and found the highs to be extraordinarily smooth. Are you sure it's really harshness, and not simply an increase in top end output?

Serendipity

quadzilla wrote: »

Not sure why you'd be getting harshness, or if replacing anything would help. I did exactly that when I rebuilt my 2.3 TLs, and found the highs to be extraordinarily smooth. Are you sure it's really harshness, and not simply an increase in top end output?

It may be an increase in top end output. Would there be a case where increased top end output would result in harsher/brighter highs? Either way, I now have to set the Treble to -2 or else it's too bright.

Keep in mind what sounds "flat" to me may be different to others. I thought all of the 2011 PolkFest rigs were too bright and had too much low-end "thump," but was told that they were flat. Noticed this especially when listening to Sarah Brightman's Timeless in which the bass on "Naturaleza Muerta" and "Tu Quieres Volver" overpowered her voice. If anyone here has this CD, does Track 4 and Track 10 sound this way? Both my rig now and the PolkFest rigs have this extra top end output on the above tracks.

Serendipity

Not sure. Just have a lot more highs than before. And the two tracks mentioned above are difficult to listen to for long periods, although Phantom of the Opera still rocks.

Serendipity

I listened to the rig for about an hour and have come to the conclusion that I am hearing an increase in top end output. Why would you think something is amiss with the soldering? On some tracks it sounds better with the brighter highs and the mids are even more well-defined than before. On "Timeless" Sarah's voice is too bright to listen to, although on my Phantom of the Opera CD she sounds better with the mod.

Keep in mind I am sensitive to highs and lows so I prefer more of a warmer sound.

Serendipity

I am looking at this eBay listing right now:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parasound-Halo-A51-five-channel-amplifier-5-x-250-/260925446466?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cc05e5942

Would this amp provide more of a warmer sound that I am looking for?

tonyb

What you need is not an amp, what you need is some tubes bro. Try that single tube Yaqin buffer, it's around 200 clams, should take the shrill out of those highs. Could always resell it if you don't like it.

Dennis Gardner

It sounds to me that the drivers might have been wired "out of phase" and you corrected the phase by wiring them differently. I would check a schematic, to be sure since soldering shouldn't have made any differences assuming the previous connection was tight.

Serendipity

tonyb wrote: »

What you need is not an amp, what you need is some tubes bro. Try that single tube Yaqin buffer, it's around 200 clams, should take the shrill out of those highs. Could always resell it if you don't like it.

I'm in the process of building my own, see here:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?111271-DIY-Tube-Preamp

Dennis Gardner wrote: »

It sounds to me that the drivers might have been wired "out of phase" and you corrected the phase by wiring them differently. I would check a schematic, to be sure since soldering shouldn't have made any differences assuming the previous connection was tight.

I don't know how they were wired before (didn't mark the wiring) as these speakers were used. The BP10B have a strange wiring pattern - on the woofers, Black goes to - and Red goes to +. However, on the tweeters, Green goes to - and Yellow goes to +.

I read this link before hooking up the tweeters:
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=61029

Serendipity

Update: Everything is fine!

As confirmed by Definitive tech support (which is great BTW), Green goes to - and Yellow goes to +.

Not sure why I am hearing more/clearer highs, but I have them wired correctly according to Definitive Customer Service. Basically I gained some sizzle in the top end and better vocal clarity in the mids.

Drenis

Maybe it had a piss poor solder job before and it never allowed you to hear what you were supposed to direct from the factory. Maybe you corrected the issue.

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

What you need is not an amp, what you need is some tubes bro. Try that single tube Yaqin buffer, it's around 200 clams, should take the shrill out of those highs. Could always resell it if you don't like it.

He needs a better pre. Using an AVR as a pre is less than ideal.

VR3

Drenis wrote: »

Maybe it had a piss poor solder job before and it never allowed you to hear what you were supposed to direct from the factory. Maybe you corrected the issue.

DT uses quick disconnects from the factory

Serendipity

heiney9 wrote: »

He needs a better pre. Using an AVR as a pre is less than ideal.

If I purchased a pre, how would I play my Concert DVD's and Broadway Musicals?

From what I am understanding, a DAC such as the Cambridge DacMagic will not take DTS 96/24 or Dolby Digital from Concert DVD's.

Serendipity

^^ and some Concert DVD's don't even have a PCM track. In this case I would hear nothing.

steveinaz

That seems strange. I don't see how that simple change would effect treble so much. Is this a high silver content solder?

Serendipity

How would I determine this? The solder was very expensive.

Serendipity

After putting in some listening time, I can say that the quality of vocals definitely improved. On "Water Shows the Hidden Heart" of Amarantine, the midrange had much more definition and clarity. And "Only Time" sounded unbelievable.

My only concern is the increase in top end. An analogy would be turning up the contrast and sharpness of a wildlife image in Adobe Photoshop. Yes, it does look better to the untrained eye, but the image is no longer accurate of the original photo.

quadzilla

Serendipity wrote: »

After putting in some listening time, I can say that the quality of vocals definitely improved. On "Water Shows the Hidden Heart" of Amarantine, the midrange had much more definition and clarity. And "Only Time" sounded unbelievable.

My only concern is the increase in top end. An analogy would be turning up the contrast and sharpness of a wildlife image in Adobe Photoshop. Yes, it does look better to the untrained eye, but the image is no longer accurate of the original photo.

Soldering the wiring directly to the speakers likely decreased the resistance presented to the signal by at least a few hundredths of an ohm. That might not seem like a lot, but it will have an effect on the response curve, especially in the tweeter circuit. It turned out well when I did that, and the response I got after is pretty close to before, but that was a mix of luck and planning, combined with all the other changes I made. And not the least of which was an entirely new internal harness.

steveinaz

Solders usually list the breakdown of tin/lead/silver on the can.

Serendipity

62% Tin
36% Lead
2% Silver

With that out of the way - I am seeing suggestions that I need to purchase a better pre. I am using a $4,000 AVR that I purchased used. (Original owner paid over $4k including tax). If I went the pre route, what DACs out there would decode Dolby Digital and DTS 96/24?

drumminman

I have a set of BP 30's I bought new. Not sure if they use the same tweeter as your 10B's, but I always felt that the top end was a little hot. I rewired 'em, getting rid of the quick disconnects, and soldered the new 16 awg solid core wire directly to the T's and MW's. But. . . . . . . . . . . . .I also built new crossovers using sonicaps/mills/alphacore air core copper ribbon inductors and moved 'em outboard.

Big improvement once the new Xovers burned in. Much smoother with the high end glare gone, better imaging, etc. Still have 'em, but my 2.3 TL's elbowed their way into my 2 channel rig :cheesygrin:

Serendipity

drumminman wrote: »

I have a set of BP 30's I bought new. Not sure if they use the same tweeter as your 10B's, but I always felt that the top end was a little hot.

Yup, what I am hearing right now is that the top end is a little hot.

heiney9

Serendipity wrote: »

If I purchased a pre, how would I play my Concert DVD's and Broadway Musicals?

From what I am understanding, a DAC such as the Cambridge DacMagic will not take DTS 96/24 or Dolby Digital from Concert DVD's.

Serendipity wrote: »

^^ and some Concert DVD's don't even have a PCM track. In this case I would hear nothing.

Apparently you are willing to compromise by using and AVR as a pre-amp yet still expect stellar 2 channel sound. So my answer is to have 2 rigs or understand sometimes the compromise to get it all in one is to have some issue with the sound. If you got a nice pre, I'm sure the edginess would be diminished. They do make nice sounding pre-pro's, but if you are budget oriented then you have to be happy to compromise.

Perhaps put the factory connectors back on if the difference is so great.

H9

Serendipity

heiney9 wrote: »

Apparently you are willing to compromise by using and AVR as a pre-amp yet still expect stellar 2 channel sound. So my answer is to have 2 rigs or understand sometimes the compromise to get it all in one is to have some issue with the sound. If you got a nice pre, I'm sure the edginess would be diminished. They do make nice sounding pre-pro's, but if you are budget oriented then you have to be happy to compromise.

Perhaps put the factory connectors back on if the difference is so great.

H9

Uhm, you do realize that I am talking about buying a nice pre and using it for 2 channels, right?

This is the issue - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-826505.html

Some devices (such as my OTA tuner) only output Dolby Digital. Whether it's DD 5.1 or DD 2.0, that's irrelevant because I still can't find a 2ch DAC that will accept DD 2.0.

Serendipity

Maybe I wasn't clear in the above post.

If you have an Xbox 360, put a DTS 96/24 disc and connect it to your 2 channel rig with the ANALOG L/R stereo connection only.

You'll get no sound.

heiney9

Serendipity wrote: »

Uhm, you do realize that I am talking about buying a nice pre and using it for 2 channels, right?

This is the issue - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-826505.html

Some devices (such as my OTA tuner) only output Dolby Digital. Whether it's DD 5.1 or DD 2.0, that's irrelevant because I still can't find a 2ch DAC that will accept DD 2.0.

Ok, so buy it already and see if it diminshes your issue. How would I know what you are considering buying? I made my post based on your OP and the info you presented. They make some stellar pre/pro's that sound great for 2 channel, you just have to decide if they are in the budget.

Hmmmm, my Adcom plays DD 2.0 dvd's just fine. I'm sure it converts to PCM but again, you can't have your cake and eat it too. If it's muti-channel DD you want, you are at the mercy of the pre/pro and or the DVDp.

H9

Serendipity

I am already running a 2 channel rig, but using the receiver for the decoding. Was considering buying a Parasound Halo P3 with the A21 amp and getting a Cambridge Audio DacMagic to go with it. However, from what I am reading online, if your source does not turn DD 2.0 DVD's into PCM, you're out of luck as the DacMagic won't take native DD 2.0

Speaking of which - how do you play a DTS 96/24 track on your 2 channel?

When I had the Xbox 360 as my source, it would NOT downmix DTS 96/24 into PCM.

heiney9

I haven't run into a DVD yet is 7 years that won't play through a dac on my 2 channel rig.

The reciever is the weak link if you are looking for stellar 2 channel sound. That's why I said a dedicated pre-amp will diminish or even eliminate some of the harshness. AVR's are not very good 2 channel pre's.

H9

Serendipity

Interesting. I have a 96/24 disc that wouldn't play at all when hooked up with the L/R analog connection, but all of my DVD movies work fine if you hook the player up with L/R analog.

I have a $4,000 receiver - I guess there's only a $50 DAC in this unit.

heiney9

I have a $20,000 truck that does a better job hauling lumber than my $60,000 Porsche. Cost means very little vs. what the intended design/use is. An expensive AVR with all the bells and whistles still won;t substitute for a nice dedicated 2 channel pre.

I guess the thing you still have to understand is there isn't going to be 1 product out there that will do everything. You are trying to accomplish too many things with a single unit. Sometimes you just need go with the least amount of compromises if you want it all in one rig. But then issue like the harshness could pop up, etc.

H9