Anyone read TAS Feb edition (issue 220) on FLAC

thsmith
thsmith Posts: 6,082
edited January 2012 in Electronics
Part 3 this month on computer audio is interesting. Is flac a fraud?

I wish they would expand this Beyound PCs.
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Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited January 2012
    What do they say about FLAC? I got the issue, but haven't cracked it yet.
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  • PrazVT
    PrazVT Posts: 1,606
    edited January 2012
    based on a quick google on the discussions - it sounds like they're saying a) there is a difference in quality among FLAC encoders and b) WAVs and FLACs converted back to WAVs sound better than FLACs.

    Here's a discussion w/ one of the authors ..

    I personally don't buy it. FLAC is akin to zip compression. Has nothing to do with the audio itself - but has been optimized for audio files. Would like it see the original article at some point though..
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    I rip and convert everything to AIFF but TAS seems to only review PC based sw and codecs.

    Interesting read if nothing else.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    Apparently this has already been debated to death over at computeraudiophile. Maybe other places as well.


    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Why-Forrest-may-be-right-about...

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/AIFF-Vs-WAV

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/AIFF-or-Apple-Lossless

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Understanding-Difference

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Sound-better-uncompressed-down...
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    At least the article is being discussed over at CA

    http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/TAS-Feb-2012-Article-Computer-Audio
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    If people want to download the PDF version to read it themselves here's the link -> http://www.nextnewsstand.com/products/the-absolute-sound/tas-220/
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited January 2012
    Honestly, the differences between the files if any are very small, and they only seem to occur when your computer has a hiccup. I use AIFF because there is never any questions that it sounds good and memory is cheap these days. People seem to obsess over this topic because it is something that could be easy to correct at little to out of pocket expense; unfortunately, the sonic returns are far less than what a good component upgrade or room treatment solution might offer.
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  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    SolidSqual wrote: »
    Honestly, the differences between the files if any are very small, and they only seem to occur when your computer has a hiccup. I use AIFF because there is never any questions that it sounds good and memory is cheap these days. People seem to obsess over this topic because it is something that could be easy to correct at little to out of pocket expense; unfortunately, the sonic returns are far less than what a good component upgrade or room treatment solution might offer.

    Yep, I spent several hours reading it about yesterday that I will never get back. SUbject seems to be vast and no conclusion.

    I like what TAS is trying to do on their computer audio articles but think they could have done a better job and focused on more important areas and not be so limited to PC based SW.

    It really is the wild west out there on computer audio, I mean you have Windows, MAc and Lynx based machines, FW vs USB, VS TOSLINK and SPDIF DACs, then the AUdio SW programs and so on.

    I guess that is what makes it fun and frustrating.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
    Preamp: Joule Electra LA-150 MKII SE
    Amp: Wright WPA 50-50 EAT KT88s
    Analog: Marantz TT-15S1 MBS Glider SL| Wright WPP100C Amperex BB 6er5 and 7316 & WPM-100 SUT
    Digital: Mac mini 2.3GHz dual-core i5 8g RAM 1.5 TB HDD Music Server Amarra (memory play) - USB - W4S DAC 2
    Cables: Mits S3 IC and Spk cables| PS Audio PCs
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,171
    edited January 2012
    I have been using and comparing FLAC and computer based audio for about 5-6 years now or more. If anything, when done properly, FLAC and the computer can sound better. There are a multitude of variables that if aren;t addressed properly can cause some issues which leads to lesser sound quality. FLAC in and of itself is not the culprit, IMO.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • SolidSqual
    SolidSqual Posts: 5,218
    edited January 2012
    Yup, bad sounding FLAC is probably a symptom, not the cause.
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,601
    edited January 2012
    There are so many things that could go wrong. Thats one thing a CDP has- simplicity.
    I haven't found anything in my FLAC stuff wrong other that what I put there. I had some cd's that
    EAC couldn't covert. So I did a crude copy cd thing with Nero and then did EAC. And I can hear
    problems with parts of those cds. Other than that, all's well with FLAC. I may someday replace those
    CDs. But for now, not going to spend the money.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2012
    Agree with Brock--I find HDD based music via the Touch very, very analog-like. Then again I'm deaf, so what the hell do I know?
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited January 2012
    thsmith wrote: »
    I like what TAS is trying to do on their computer audio articles but think they could have done a better job and focused on more important areas and not be so limited to PC based SW.

    This is a 4 part series, with one more to come. This is a quite intensive series of articles, and they have to start somewhere. The December issue had an article on MAC based music-player software.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,572
    edited January 2012
    CD/SACD Rules!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2012
    I think the whole flac/Wav debate is fueled by endless tweak-a-holics, in need of a fix for a non-existent problem. Just my 2 cents.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • strider
    strider Posts: 2,568
    edited January 2012
    steveinaz wrote: »
    I think the whole flac/Wav debate is fueled by endless tweak-a-holics, in need of a fix for a non-existent problem. Just my 2 cents.

    Nail. Head.

    In fact, you could replace "flac/Wav" with just about any audio topic and still be just as correct. Well said.
    Wristwatch--->Crisco
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,171
    edited January 2012
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Agree with Brock--I find HDD based music via the Touch very, very analog-like. Then again I'm deaf, so what the hell do I know?

    But, I'm not - :razz:
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul!
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited January 2012
    YOU are now my ears "Luke." LOL
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • BlueFox
    BlueFox Posts: 15,251
    edited January 2012
    Thet also review my speaker cable on page 108!!
    Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
    Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.
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  • brgman
    brgman Posts: 2,859
    edited January 2012
    Just for giggles i burned a cd from a FLAC file in JRiver and then converted it to WAV and burned another.I used the MoFi 24karat gold cd-r's on both.Played them back on my Marantz.
    It may be psychological but i heard what i felt was quite an improvement in the WAV.More detail,open,and clean. IMHO
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