Black Hole

drumminman
drumminman Posts: 3,396
edited April 2013 in DIY, Mods & Tweaks
Over the Christmas break I had time to open my 2.3TL?s and perform two mods I had wanted to do for some time: seal the cabinets and install Black Hole damping sheets.

The sealant I used is by Loctite and is listed as low VOC?s (< 0.5%) with no respiratory warnings on the label. It?s actually sold as construction adhesive. Can?t remember the name now, but when I get home I?ll have a look and post it. I bought three tubes at Lowes and used less than one.

Anyway the reason I did this is that with all the mods I?ve done, the speaks are a little bass shy. When doing the PR push test I had noticed that the MW?s recede to the half way point almost immediately (~ 1 sec). So I proceeded to remove all MW?s and both PR?s, and the batting, and carefully set aside the internal wiring. I had a full size caulking gun, which was tough to maneuver inside the cabinet. Where I couldn?t get it to go I used the ?ol finger method. The stuff dries clear, and has absolutely no odor! The front baffle was completely sealed with glue so I only needed to do the side panels and top and bottom caps.

Then it was on to the Black Hole. I read of TF66?s and others experience with using too much of this stuff. Apparently too much kills the sound, makes it flat and dull. I used a utility knife and heavy duty scissors to cut four 3? wide x 27? long strips, which I installed vertically on the inside back panel directly behind each bank of MW?s. Then I installed six 3.5? wide strips behind each tweeter; these were long enough to form a ?bridge? between the two verticals. It?s pretty easy to install as it has a strong PSA (pressure sensitive adhesive) that really grabbed. I did clean the back panel with a damp cloth just to be sure there wasn?t any dust or loose particles that might affect the bond. I used a little less than one sheet, which is good sense Black Hole is a little pricey, even with the 20% discount I got during Sonicraft?s sale.

Then I reinstalled the batting, reconnected all the wiring, and buttoned both speakers up. Another push test revealed a slower return to the midway point, around 2.5-3 seconds. Progress! Last night was the first time I had an opportunity to listen.

Front end includes Magnavox CDP, Peter Daniel DAC (both digital units fed by balanced power transformer), Odyssey Candela linestage w/ RCA clear tops fed by 1 KVA isolation transformer, Odyssey Stratos w/ Cap Upgrade fed by 1.5 KVA balanced power transformer, 12? sealed sub fed by 1 KVA line conditioner. Cables mostly DIY. You can see the previous mods I?ve done in my sig. Before these latest two I was very happy with the sound I was getting: nice SDA soundstage, smooth top to bottom, good transient response, good bass quality if not quantity. The latter I'm pretty sure is due to less than stellar placement, which I can?t do anything about unfortunately.

I?ll say right off that I was pretty surprised at what I heard. First I put on one of my favorites, Susan Tedeschi. This is a compilation of some of her best stuff, and most of the tunes are well recorded. Her band has both a piano and Hammond B3, background singers, a great bass player, drums, guitar. Next up was Miranda Lambert?s ?Crazy Ex-girlfriend?, then Best of Talking Heads, and finally Chicago?s debut album (still my favorite). The changes I heard were present across all these albums.

I never thought of these speakers as sounding congested, but the sound stage has opened up front to back and side to side. Each instrument is more clearly heard at its own particular volume level and in its place. It?s fascinating on the ST album to hear the organ move to the front playing lead or heavy rhythm, and recede to the background playing flourishes. Transients are improved with ride cymbals a little easier to hear. Female vocals sound a little more natural; a little chestiness I hadn?t noticed before is gone. The speakers, while sounding smoother also have more slam, more dynamic punch. I haven?t noticed a change in bass output. It does a fine job until that point, but the speaks are rated for 750 wpc, and it?s somewhere around 150-180 wpc. Now what I?m thinking is that the sound wave from the MW?s was bouncing off the back wall (before BH) and returning to hit the rear of the cones causing breakup and loss of clarity. I never thought the 2.3TL's lacked any of the qualities I heard last night, they are now enhanced. :cool:

I?m running out of descriptions here, but to sum it up I would say the BH is absolutely worthwhile. Sealing the cabs, don?t know since I did both of these together. I would rank this as one of the top tweaks I?ve performed on the speakers, especially for the cost.
"Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
Post edited by drumminman on
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Comments

  • quadzilla
    quadzilla Posts: 1,543
    edited January 2012
    Sounds like basically the way I did mine. It's a very worthwhile mod.
    Turntable: Empire 208
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    Damn cut 'n paste :evil:! Part of the review doesn't make sense - I wrote it in MS Word and then c/p to the forum. Here's what it should have said starting about midway through the nes to last paragraph:

    I haven't noticed a change in bass output. The speakers, while sounding smoother have more slam, more dynamic punch. And here?s the really interesting part: I had the volume up louder than I ever have. I had always assumed that when I turned it up past a certain point the amp was starting to run out of gas. It does a fine job, but the speaks are rated for 750 wpc, and it?s somewhere around 150-180. Now what I?m thinking is that the sound wave from the MW?s was bouncing off the back wall and coming back and hitting the rear of the cones causing some breakup and the speakers to sound less than their best.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,092
    edited January 2012
    Nice I may try this on my Monitor 7A's. Thanks!
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2012
    The mids should be much more coherent with BH in place behind them.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    For this type of application Sonic Barrier works just as good and save you a lot of coin.
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,746
    edited January 2012
    I would say No Rez would be a lower cost alternative and it is a good bit better than Sonic Barrier, IMO - I cant SB to stick to anything without help
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    I have yet to try No-Rez
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

    SVS SB16 X2

    Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
    Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
    Cary DMS 800PV Network
    OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
    VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
    Jolida JD9 Fully Modified

    VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM

    MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited January 2012
    Black Hole and No-Res are both excellent, Sonic Barrier isn't as good as either one.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,746
    edited January 2012
    Yeah I am not a huge fan of Sonic Barrier...

    From my research it seems BH is better for subs and NR for mids/highs
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    Face wrote: »
    Black Hole and No-Res are both excellent, Sonic Barrier isn't as good as either one.

    Haven't tried SB or NR, but I have to agree the BH works amazingly well in this application. Can't recommend this tweak highly enough. Did more listening last night and the effect is stunning. Who'd a thunk???? :wink: Have enough left to do my RTA 12C's.

    Left to my own devices I probably would have used too much. Happy to stand on the shoulders of those who came before :cheesygrin:
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    I agree with you Mike but with just putting strips behind the mids I noticed no sonic improvement between the two.
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

    SVS SB16 X2

    Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
    Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
    Cary DMS 800PV Network
    OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
    VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
    Jolida JD9 Fully Modified

    VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM

    MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s
  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    The name of the sealant I used is Loctite Power Grab Heavy Duty Exterior Construction Adhesive.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,648
    edited January 2012
    Nice write up Fred, thanks!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

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  • schwarcw
    schwarcw Posts: 7,339
    edited January 2012
    Any pictures or a schematic of where you placed this material inside the 2.3's? I have a pair and i am interested to learn more!:cheesygrin:
    Carl

  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    schwarcw wrote: »
    Any pictures or a schematic of where you placed this material inside the 2.3's? I have a pair and i am interested to learn more!:cheesygrin:

    Sorry, no pics. The long strips of BH are placed vertically on the inside back wall directly opposite the bank of two and bank of 4 MW's in each cabinet. Then I cut 3.5" strips (three for each cab.) and placed them horizontally opposite the tweeters also on the back wall. These "connected" the two vertical strips so it looks like a ladder.

    Hope this helps.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2012
    I applied BH5 to the back of the midrange and tweeter section in my 1.2TLs a year ago. For those who are thinking of doing this in their SDAs, keep the BH5 away from the PR section.

    Highly recommended.
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2012
    drumminman wrote: »
    I?m running out of descriptions here, but to sum it up I would say the BH is absolutely worthwhile. Sealing the cabs, don?t know since I did both of these together. I would rank this as one of the top tweaks I?ve performed on the speakers, especially for the cost.

    When you sealed your cabinets, which I assume you mean you sealed the drivers and tweeters, it added the slam impact you are describing. I sealed my drivers, tweeters, and PR with mortite. It is a very inexpensive investment, and has a high ROI, adding to the slam and definition you are describing. If you get a chance, add dynamat to the baskets on your MW and PR. This will dampen renosance on your baskets. This is another low-cost tweak you can perform on your SDA-SRS'.

    PM1
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    When you sealed your cabinets, which I assume you mean you sealed the drivers and tweeters, it added the slam impact you are describing. I sealed my drivers, tweeters, and PR with mortite. It is a very inexpensive investment, and has a high ROI, adding to the slam and definition you are describing. If you get a chance, add dynamat to the baskets on your MW and PR. This will dampen renosance on your baskets. This is another low-cost tweak you can perform on your SDA-SRS'.

    PM1

    Definitely do not put BH below the MW's!

    Also, sealing the cabinets meant running a bead of the construction adhesive wherever two panels meet and there's no visible hot glue. Different than using mortite on the drivers, though I did something similar a while back except I replaced the mortite with Armaflex.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • PolkMaster1
    PolkMaster1 Posts: 847
    edited January 2012
    drumminman wrote: »
    Also, sealing the cabinets meant running a bead of the construction adhesive wherever two panels meet and there's no visible hot glue. Different than using mortite on the drivers, though I did something similar a while back except I replaced the mortite with Armaflex.

    Ahh - thanks for the clarification. I would do that myself, which sounds like it would be worthwhile to do - but I would like to replace the wood paneling one day.
    Statistics show that 98% of us will die at some point in our lifetime.

    The other 2% will work for WalMart.
  • jmitchnh
    jmitchnh Posts: 31
    edited January 2012
    This may be a really dumb question, but when you install the BH5 I'm assuming you discard the factory fiber fill ?
    Life's too short too listen to bad speakers
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    jmitchnh wrote: »
    This may be a really dumb question, but when you install the BH5 I'm assuming you discard the factory fiber fill ?


    I kept mine in.
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

    SVS SB16 X2

    Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
    Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
    Cary DMS 800PV Network
    OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
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    Jolida JD9 Fully Modified

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    MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s
  • evhudsons
    evhudsons Posts: 1,175
    edited January 2012
    Yes keep the fill in the speaker.
    Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe
  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited January 2012
    jmitchnh wrote: »
    This may be a really dumb question, but when you install the BH5 I'm assuming you discard the factory fiber fill ?

    I kept mine in. The effect of the BH (and fiberfill to a lesser extent) is that it prevents the internal soundwave from bouncing off the back wall and returning to hit the back of the MW's. It makes the cabinet "seem bigger" than it is.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    I pulled out the sonic barrier this last week and I put 4" strips of BH5 in its place but this time I added 2" strips on the sides of the cabinets with great results and I will eat my words the BH5 is better on all aspects to the SB...
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

    SVS SB16 X2

    Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
    Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
    Cary DMS 800PV Network
    OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
    VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
    Jolida JD9 Fully Modified

    VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM

    MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s
  • evhudsons
    evhudsons Posts: 1,175
    edited January 2012
    I wonder if I have my norez installed incorrectly. I have the much smaller crs+ with about the same size pieces attached to the top, bottom and sides (one piece each) but not against the back. The passive and the crossover takes up most of that space, but from the description maybe that's where I should try to put it, and maybe even less of it. They are more like 3 inch squares rather than strips. I apologize for interjecting a crs question on your thread, but I would like to fully understand the concept and your thread is making it much clearer.
    Polk Audio SDA CRS+ crossover 4.1TL by Trey/VR3 (Rings and custom stand by Larry)-Polk Audio SDA SRS2 crossovers by Trey/VR3Parasound HCA1500aYamaha rxa-3070 with musicast-Celestion SL6S presence,- sl9 surround backNHTsuper1's surroundMagnepan SMGParasound 1500pre- Sofia "Baby" tube amp - Monitor Audio Silver RX2 Marantz 2230/B&Kst140Technics 1200mk2 Gamertag: IslandBerserker I am but a infinitesimally small point meeting the line of infinity in the SDA universe
  • thsmith
    thsmith Posts: 6,082
    edited January 2012
    I ordered No-Rez last week, glad to see it is a worth wild tweak. Had not thought of sealing the cabinet like OP but I will add that to the list. Once the new gaskets get here I will probably do all at once.
    Speakers: SDA-1C (most all the goodies)
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  • Toolfan66
    Toolfan66 Posts: 17,303
    edited January 2012
    evhudsons wrote: »
    I wonder if I have my norez installed incorrectly. I have the much smaller crs+ with about the same size pieces attached to the top, bottom and sides (one piece each) but not against the back. The passive and the crossover takes up most of that space, but from the description maybe that's where I should try to put it, and maybe even less of it. They are more like 3 inch squares rather than strips. I apologize for interjecting a crs question on your thread, but I would like to fully understand the concept and your thread is making it much clearer.

    I have mine on the side walls of my CRS's as well. There really is no room on the back wall.
    Polk Audio SDA 2.3tl Fully Hot Rodded. 😎

    SVS SB16 X2

    Cary SLP-05/Ultimate Upgrade.
    Cary SA-500.1 ES Amps
    Cary DMS 800PV Network
    OPPO UDP 205/ModWright Modification
    VPI Scout TT / Dynavector 20x2
    Jolida JD9 Fully Modified

    VPI MW-1 Cyclone RCM

    MIT Shotgun 3 cables throughout / Except TT, and PC’s
  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited March 2013
    Bump of an older thread..... But, wanted to ask you Fred if you only bouoght one sheet of BH5 to use on your 2.3TL's? I am definately interested in doing this tweak as I have noticed some recordings are very "congested" sounding. With the mids and upper bass really blending and making the audio sound unbalanced and well, "congested". Some recordings, not so much. I listed to the MF SACD of Stevie Ray Vaughn's "The Sky Is Crying" and it doesn't have this congestion as much. But, listening to the MF Gold CD of Beck's "Sea Change", the mids and bass are definately congested.
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  • drumminman
    drumminman Posts: 3,396
    edited March 2013
    But, wanted to ask you Fred if you only bouoght one sheet of BH5 to use on your 2.3TL's?


    Yep, just one sheet if you apply in strips as described in my OP above. I had enough leftover to do my RTA 12C's too. From my experience it may well be all you need to clean up the congestion. I was surprised at how well it worked - cheap and effective tweak.
    "Science is suppose to explain observations not dismiss them as impossible" - Norm on AA; 2.3TL's w/sonicaps/mills/jantzen inductors, Gimpod's boards, Lg Solen SDA inductors, RD-0198's, MW's dynamatted, Armaflex speaker gaskets, H-nuts, brass spikes, Cardas CCGR BP's, upgraded IC Cable, Black Hole Damping Sheet strips, interior of cabinets sealed with Loctite Power Grab, AI-1 interface with 1000VA A-L transformer
  • Moose68Bash
    Moose68Bash Posts: 3,843
    edited March 2013
    jmitchnh wrote: »
    This may be a really dumb question, but when you install the BH5 I'm assuming you discard the factory fiber fill ?

    I replaced the polyfill from my SRSs with Acousta Stuf. I have no idea whether it is an improvement because I made so many mods at the same time (yeah, unscientific, but it is expeditious!). However, somebody had filled my SRSs with probably twice as much polyfill as had been originally installed. Furthermore, they had filled the bottom chamber of the cabinets behind the PRs with egg-crate foam.

    In my 1Cs, which I'm working on now, I'm reusing the stock polyfill.

    Here's what the upper part of the cabinets looked like:

    DSC_0003_217.jpg


    Here's what the lower chamber looked like with the egg-crate foam:

    DSC_0982_023.jpg


    Here's the egg-crate foam I pulled out of ONE cabinet:

    DSC_0984_025.jpg


    I apologize once again for the screwy pictures; I couldn't figure out how to delete the "big" picture.
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