Electrical 20 amp outlet questions....

disneyjoe7

For my Electrical Audiophile friends here....

Background of this....

I wish to add 3 20amps to my family room, where wiring to main panel.


My main panel is over done with only 8 slots, 4 being used for 2 100amp sub panels in garage. Where the other 4 slots are feeding 5 circuits, but a quad was added to feed pool sub panel of 30amps. Many circuit breakers in my house are double where there's 2 circuits to 1 double breaker. So adding anything there would require a new main electrical panel, was my old thinking and is option #1.


My thinking now is to do this in one of the sub panels. Where I could replace one 40 amp 240ac double breaker to a 20/40/40/20 quad breaker, and using another slot have the 3 20's I needed. Option #2


Is option 1 much better then option 2, but option 2 is much cheaper.

Opinions needed.

decal

I can't stress this enough, seek the services of a qualified electrician.

pitdogg2

depending on your panel maker you may be able to take out the standard sized breaker and replace with two slim breakers. I didn't know they had such a thing until i went to buy some breakers for my panel.
My panel is a GE.

disneyjoe7

Question is this... One breaker of 20amp to outlet, or 2 breakers of 100amp to sub panel to 20amp breaker.

pitdogg2

decal wrote: »

I can't stress this enough, seek the services of a qualified electrician.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

disneyjoe7

Don't brother me with this ****.

This is audiophile question and not how do I hook this up crap.

gdb

nevermind...wrong answer:redface:

disneyjoe7

Will I get an answer from anyone other then the You'll shot your eye out Audiophiles?

pitdogg2

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Question is this... One breaker of 20amp to outlet, or 2 breakers of 100amp to sub panel to 20amp breaker.

DJ7,
If you're asking which would be a better route, the direct path will be best. main panel 20amp breaker to the outlet.
When i rewired my house i made sure my audio gear was the very first breakers in the box. My thinking was that it would be less contamination from any large appliances. Both my HT gear and my 2ch gear got their very own breaker with nothing else on that circuit.

disneyjoe7

Thanks and yes feel the same way, but what I'm losing going the other route? Say if direct route is 100% is 100amp feeding sub panel to another 20amp breaker 70%. The issue here is doing it the right way is too costly now, and doing it the other way is much more feasible. But if its a really downer then yes I understand option #1 would be better. But on the other hand even if it was wired to the main panel then the 20amp circuits wouldn't the first breakers since the sub panels 100amp breakers need to be first. Then the sub panel 100amp is feeding the 20amp circuits.

The house is 200amp service.

TECHNOKID

pitdogg2 wrote: »

DJ7,
If you're asking which would be a better route, the direct path will be best. main panel 20amp breaker to the outlet.

I fully agree, direct path will more likely provide better power and least potential issue in the future.

Tour2ma

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

The house is 200amp service.

Hey Mr. Photography... breaker box pics would help... :cheesygrin:

That said, it's not a matter of empty slots or swapping out one 240V for two 120V breakers. It's a matter of probable, simultaneous loads.

Regardless of whether you DIY or hire a pro, over at Self Help Forums there's a copy of the 2001 revision to the General Dwelling Load Calculation.
http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/1999-article-archives/1999-definitions-calculations/general-method-of-dwelling-calculation-1999.php

You can use it to determine whether or not you have capacity available under your 240 V 200 Ampere (48,000 va) main. Go thru this exercise and at minimum it will help you pick a contractor should you go that route.

I've used the site and other DIY sites as resources for various electrical and plumbing projects with great success.

If you calculate that you have capacity, then DIY is an option. As in that case you'd have your tripped 200 A main between you and any work in the main panel for safety. Then choosing to go DIY is a matter of local codes, permit requirements and experience/ comfort level.

If you find that you do not have capacity available and have to add a box off of the feeds to your main box, then the only protection you can employ requires pulling the meter... and that's pro-only...

The Forum has a section on picking an electrician as well.

disneyjoe7

Mr. RollerCoaster Man,

I don't feel the house is under powered since I don't ever blow a fuse. But feel my stereo could improve using some dedicated 20's outlets. One for each amp L / R and one for everything else feeding the Monster power center. Now I argee some pictures could help, and will do later.


Steve

disneyjoe7

Garage sub panel #1 where new quad to add 2 out of 3 20's for family room.

disneyjoe7

Garage sub panel #2 no work in this box is planed.

disneyjoe7

Main panel where there's no room in the inn. But the 15/20/20/15 quad was removed so 15/15 double and a 20/20 double could be installed here. It had before the quad 15/15 double and a gfi 20amp breaker, a GFI outlet was added to remove that breaker for the quad.

gdb

SuareD used to make tandem/ piggy back breakers that would use one space to power two circuits. Edit...still do

http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=622&q=square+d+piggyback+breakers&gbv=2&oq=square+d+pigg&aq=1S&aqi=g-S1&aql=&gs_sm=c&gs_upl=2699l18939l0l21996l15l15l1l4l4l0l250l1639l1.7.2l10l0#hl=en&gbv=2&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=square+d+tandem+breakers&oq=square+d+tandem+breakers&aq=f&aqi=g-S1&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44203l57010l0l59069l8l8l0l0l0l0l250l1139l4.2.2l8l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=25ea899e79ba2ada&biw=1600&bih=622

gdb

Looks like panel #1 still has a knock out

disneyjoe7

Yes it does, back to my upgrade.....

Move the 40 amp up to 1 & 3 space, make this a 20/40/40/20 quad breaker. This break 40amp is for the oven, the 20/20 amp is for the family room. The next 2 spaces below this quad will be another 20/15/15/20 quad for a x-10 repeater device, and I got 2 20amp circuits for the family room using only 1 circuit on that breaker. With 2 sub panels with the main panel my x-10 switches don't like to work in this house, so need a repeater.

gdb

I'm out:rolleyes:

Systems

Not sure I would push a box with such limited breakers.
I would install a dedicated 20 amp breaker, and just daisy chain 2 receptacles off one breaker.
But do I know what I am doing:question:?
Who am I?
Am I qualified?

I gotta tell ya Joe, hopefully you are not really taking advice here that could affect your whole life from here on.
It is really stupid to comment on a public forum, as you should get the advice of a skilled professional.
Simple really.:cool:

Systems

With a licensed Electrician, you would have started this thread with 1 question.
You would have received 1 answer.
The right answer!Attachment not found.

disneyjoe7

I have some friends who are electrical people and he stated today I should sale this house so I could start over. He also feels there's no easy way to do these new circuits in this house.

Drenis

Are you keen on staying there? Re-wire out of the question?

disneyjoe7

Drenis wrote: »

Are you keen on staying there? Re-wire out of the question?

Rewire what?

The Main panel so it has more space?

Or

The sub panel #1 which I wish to do, not the best but the most effective.

Drenis

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Rewire what?

The Main panel so it has more space?

Or

The sub panel #1 which I wish to do, not the best but the most effective.

Well... I went off what you last wrote which was:

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I have some friends who are electrical people and he stated today I should sale this house so I could start over. He also feels there's no easy way to do these new circuits in this house.

Since your advised to start over, I asked if re-wiring your house was out of the question. That means ALL panels. If your not planning on living here long, then I would not bother until you find where you want to make a permanent home IMO.

disneyjoe7

Ok understand, but its out of question. It's an issue of being cost effective of a dedicated outlet being wired from where, and on from what breaker position. Don't feel any 10k+ rewire job will be cost effective to bring dedicated outlet to the top, and what would I get in the end 100% over 95% improvement?

I may have friends but in the end they wish to be paid also, and I don't wish them to work for nothing. Then parts are parts and there's no getting around that.

dkg999

Check on having your electric company install a dual lug meter base. That way you can run two main panels off of the same meter. My electrical company installed the dual lug meter base for free. You can then run another 100 amp or more panel.

And that conglomeration of main/sub panels has to be just not right!

Tour2ma

Drenis wrote: »

Re-wire out of the question?

Looks to me like it'd be rewire #2...

Steve, was there a major addition to the house sometime in its past?

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Mr. RollerCoaster Man,
... feel my stereo could improve using some dedicated 20's outlets. One for each amp L / R and one for everything else feeding the Monster power center.

No rollin' in 2011 and 2012 doesn't look promising either... unless it's in Italy...

One point I didn't fully appreciate in my first reply is that you are not adding any significant load overall. So the questions center upon whether you shifting any load...
- Do the circuits currently feeding your rig come out of Box #1?
- At present are the amps both on the same circuit? (No reason they cannot be as the A 23's max power draw is 700 W ===> 6.4 A / each @ 110V.)
If yes to both questions, I see no reason why you could not go with two-20 A circuits out of Box #1: one for both amps and the other for the power center. Pretty straightforward job...

But since your friend said it wasn't going to be easy and I see a 15 A breaker in you main labeled "Family Room", I'm guessing the answer to at least the first question is "No". In that case you'd have to go through the Load analysis for Box #1. If the load allows the shift, you're good to go. But if not...

The next easiest approach, albeit a distant 2nd, would be a new main panel with more space. While it is a Pro job, unless there are other code issues that would have to be corrected at the same time, it's well short of a re-wire in my mind.

lanchile

pitdogg2 wrote: »

DJ7,
If you're asking which would be a better route, the direct path will be best. main panel 20amp breaker to the outlet.
When i rewired my house i made sure my audio gear was the very first breakers in the box. My thinking was that it would be less contamination from any large appliances. Both my HT gear and my 2ch gear got their very own breaker with nothing else on that circuit.

Well said! I second this too!

disneyjoe7

Bruce,

My family room outlet is feed from the main panel now, by a 15amp circuit breaker. It's also may be one of the worst outlets in the house as that junction box has 5 feeds / source going to or from it. My upgrade would be from Sub box #1, but yes nothing heavy being added to house. Just to make something cleaner.


My friend also was here during PF Tom is he name, knows house pretty well as we have worked here or there on it. Feels the electric in this house is a bit over done breaker wise, and it at its close to max unless being redone some way or other. Told him what I'm thinking and I stated I'll be done. He agree I'm done, else it would really cost me.