Listening - Volume

Milsivich

I'm just wondering how loud the rest of you listen to your music. It seems like as you get better and better quality equipment, the sound intensity levels they are able to produce also increase. I have a pair of LSi9s and a micropro 2000 with a 220 watt amp, and even with the gains on half I can't turn it up past 40% without feeling like it's the end of the world. I realize that headroom is important, but at this point I'm listening to my speakers at less than 25% of their power (watts) that they are capable of, maximum.

So am I alone here? Do you all really like to crank up the music, or is it pretty normal to be intimidated by the power of these machines.

falconcry72

Most any cheap speaker, on cheap amplification, will be capable of decibels in the 100's. It's not hard to get loud. I almost never listen that loud; I'm usually in the 70's or 80's of decibels.

I don't have powerful equipment to play loudly; I have powerful equipment to give the music control, dynamics, headroom, and low gain.

zingo

It doesn't matter how loud a stereo can get, only if it sounds good to you.

heiney9

Where did you get your math? First of all a volume control is just an indicator, just because it's moved 40% doesn't mean you are 40% output. Sound output is algorithmic not linear so the 40% and 25% you refer to have absolutely no meaning. Output changes as the frequency changes that's why at your 40% on the dial soft sounds are soft and loud sounds are louder even though the dial is at a constant 40% (using your example). Every pre-amp will have slightly different gain and the volume control will most likely be in a different position even with the same amp.

Also remember that sound output is measured in decibels (dB's) and the farther you move away from the speakers the sound diminishes algorithmically, so it also depends on how large your listening space is and how far away you sit, how dynamic the material you listen to is, how efficient your speakers are and how many obstacles you have in the room to absorb the sound energy.

So, it's not as simple as stating that your volume control is at 40% (a totally arbitrary, made up number) and your speakers are using 25% of their power (again completely arbitrary and without any meaning).

H9

heiney9

If you want louder (as measured in dB's) you need more power. Or conversely you can play the same gear in a smaller room to achieve a higher output (dB's) with the same gear. It's not an easy concept to understand because of all the variables. You have to have some idea about how all the variable interact with each other. Everyone always thinks the volume control is linear so when it's set to 1/2 way (50%) people think it means you are exactly half output. But since it's algorithimic, it couldn't be farther from the truth.

H9

heiney9

I have a 30wpc amp and in my listening room, medium to smallish, I can hit 100+ dB at about 6 feet away running my SDA's and shake the foundation. Plenty loud enough for me and enough energy to rattle the windows when low notes hit.

For other's they may want it even louder. My average listening sessions are somewhere in the 85-95dB area when I want to rock out a little bit. Still loud enough to feel the music and be completely enjoyable and save my hearing.

H9

mhardy6647

Remember that hearing has an extraordinary range of sensitivity - we can hear (and perceive differences in loudness of) sounds over a range of over fourteen orders of magnitude. For this reason, loudness (SPL) is measured on a logarithmic scale; the reproduction of recorded sound also is a nonlinear process. It takes twice as much amplifier to increase the loudness (volume*) of a sound by 3 dB, although common wisdom says that a 3 dB change is "barely noticeable". For a sound to be twice as loud (10 dB increase) as another, ten times as much amplifier power is required.

Also, as H9 points out, the gain of a preamplifier (or preamp section in an integrated amp or receiver) and the "taper" of the preamp's volume control are a) nonlinear and b) tend to vary from unit to unit.

The whole power/loudness/volume thing is complicated and even a bit nonintuitive.

As for me - 3.5 watt amplifiers and 104 dB @ 1 meter for 1 watt input speakers provides plenty of loudness/volume in our living room.



(* - I am using the terms "SPL", "loudness" and "volume" interchangeably, even though that's not strictly correct!)

BlueFox

This might be wrong, but I think as you get better gear it is possible to listen at higher levels without realizing it since the sound is clear and not distorted. So it is not fatiguing. I am always surprised when I am listening to music, and I realize I can barely hear somebody talking to me. "But it's not that loud, officer!"

thsmith

84db peaks with average 80-82db is about normal for me.

inspiredsports

I listen in my home office for about 8 hours every day (mostly classic rock) at my listening position 13 feet back from the front centerline, and find 60-65 is comfortable for working. I'll occasionally crank favorites to 80db and maybe 85db for brief periods.

I've always enjoyed the information published here . . .

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/education/information-center/decibel-exposure-time-guidelines/

mhardy6647

BlueFox wrote: »

This might be wrong, but I think as you get better gear it is possible to listen at higher levels without realizing it since the sound is clear and not distorted. So it is not fatiguing. I am always surprised when I am listening to music, and I realize I can barely hear somebody talking to me. "But it's not that loud, officer!"

Well, the listening fatigue thing depends a lot on the response characteristics of the loudspeaker. The vintage Polk Monitors, the ads/Braun loudspeakers, and the venerable Quad ESL-57 electrostatics, to pick a few personal faves, are quite nonfatiguing. Conversely, the "Heritage" Klipsch loudspeakers, and many (I'd opine, most) of the B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) and (edit) Vandersteen loudspeakers can be evocative of a power-nailer being used to fire roofing nails into ones' ears.

YMMV, of course.

Milsivich

Thanks for the responses guys.

H9 - as far as the math goes, I realize it's more complicated that I implied in my post. I actually am double majoring in math and physics, with an emphasis in acoustics. I obviously know that anything related to sound has to take into many things, including distances, the interesting relationship between sound intensity and dB, all the aspects of a room, medium including temperature, seemingly trivial things like how the position of your ears between two sources of sound can really matter when it comes to constructive or destructive interference of certain frequencies, and even that humans don't perceive a flat SPL as a function of frequency, which can over-amplification of the low end seeing as the dB scale is indeed NOT linear. And this doesn't even get into the electronic side of the acoustics, which I don't know much about. Yet, I feel like these things are unnecessary when it comes to the distinction between quiet, loud, and oh damn that's reeeeal loud. And besides, if I had to guess, I would say that 50 watts isn't too far off the mark. I appreciate your comments, but I fell like I need to defend myself a little! I don't want to come across as a COMPLETE novice

Syndil

Hearing loss is cumulative and permanent, so keep that in mind. Most people get the permanent part, but not so much the cumulative part. If it's loud enough that you can't hear other things going on, even if it doesn't feel like it's terribly loud, you could be doing permanent damage if exposed long enough. Even something relatively quiet like sleeping with a box fan in your room can cause permanent damage due to the length of time you are exposed to the noise while sleeping.

I keep a pair of Etymotic ER20 Musicians Earplugs on my keychain for when I enter a loud environment like a nightclub or a concert. They attenuate the noise level without distorting it.

rromeo923

My wife tells me that the music is too loud. That is how I know when to turn it down, and then turn back up a little when she leaves the room.

heiney9

Milsivich wrote: »

Thanks for the responses guys.

H9 - as far as the math goes, I realize it's more complicated that I implied in my post. I actually am double majoring in math and physics, with an emphasis in acoustics. I obviously know that anything related to sound has to take into many things, including distances, the interesting relationship between sound intensity and dB, all the aspects of a room, medium including temperature, seemingly trivial things like how the position of your ears between two sources of sound can really matter when it comes to constructive or destructive interference of certain frequencies, and even that humans don't perceive a flat SPL as a function of frequency, which can over-amplification of the low end seeing as the dB scale is indeed NOT linear. And this doesn't even get into the electronic side of the acoustics, which I don't know much about. Yet, I feel like these things are unnecessary when it comes to the distinction between quiet, loud, and oh damn that's reeeeal loud. And besides, if I had to guess, I would say that 50 watts isn't too far off the mark. I appreciate your comments, but I fell like I need to defend myself a little! I don't want to come across as a COMPLETE novice

Thanks for giving some info on your background.

In my experience, moving up the ladder gear wise, speaker wise and better source material has all lead to much better, clearer reproduction. It's not just about power, although if one is into SPL then you need "power", but I have been far more into quality over quantity and with better quality gear all around (including cables, etc) I've been able to listen louder for long periods of time without fatigue, etc. Also as you get better and better gear you don't need to play as loud to get the same clarity, spatial cues, dynamics, soundstage and enjoyment.

As you know it's a complicated animal to get a nice sounding rig and synergy of all the components plays a role as well.

I can listen louder and actually softer (microdynamics) with 30wpc from my Pass Aleph 30 with more clarity, better dynamics, larger soundstage, better delineation than I ever could with my 125wpc Adcom amp.

H9

Drenis

Usually when I listen to music, I rarely surpass 1 watt. I barely see 4 watt peaks on my Carver and that's when I've turned it up running in full range and feeling the music QUITE well.

evhudsons

With high current amplification, great speakers, I use the spl meter to get 80 at my sitting position and get great sound at any volume, but at my default spl level of 80 it's still really loud. For movies I think I would have that level slightly lower, sometimes louder, but for music I reduce it. I can, because the sound is soooo good it has a sweet spot of volume that too high and I am not listening to the finer details. A concert is fun, but good music is just nice. For music levels during the day or a friend's over party I have it around 70 or slightly less, at night with mood and beer, probably around 50db's (spl measurement).

With less quality I can see turning it up a bit, but with better quality it's better to turn it down.

Cheap beer is better colder, and better beer is not so temperature dependent, especially in order to appreciate the finer qualities, and too cold detracts from good beer's flavor.

Nerd

For hearing loss OSHA chart is as below


TABLE D-2 - PERMISSIBLE NOISE EXPOSURES
__________________________________________________
|
| Sound level
Duration per day,hours | dBA slow
| response
___________________________________|______________
|
8..................................| 90
6..................................| 92
4..................................| 95
3..................................| 97
2..................................| 100
1 1/2..............................| 102
1..................................| 105
1/2................................| 110
1/4 or less........................| 115

evhudsons

My dad-in-law has tinnitus, most likely from jamming out too loud for most of his youth. He hates it and I feel so bad for him but there is no cure.

quadzilla

I'm mostly in the 78-80 ranges with peaks of 84-86, depending on material. I sometimes get into the 90s, but only for short periods.

heiney9

I need to ammend post #6,

My average listening when I want to rock out is 85-90dB not 85-95dB.

Did a qucik and dirty listening session last night with an SPL meter and comfortably but still rocking out is closer to 85dB

H9

Drenis

You measure slow on c weight? Curious as some others might not measure the same or accurately.

Nerd

Sorry for posting the old OSHA log for noise exposure, here is a white paper with 1998 recomendations

evhudsons

Good point on c and slow weight. From what I gather that is the best way to measure for adjusting each speaker. Slow makes it easier to get an average reading. Fast may give you a clearer picture though of your peaks and valleys while listening.
I think c weight is the consistent weight to be used If you are using the sa
E meter to measure individual levels

michael1947

what. say again, speak up, sonny. That tinnitus is really bad stuff, had it for a while way back but it went away...along with my memory. I'm so glad we know so much about hearing today and can prevent the loss that so many of us coming up in the 50's and 60's had to endure. We just didn't know the long term impact of all of those rock concerts...or hand grenades 50 cal or the scariest sound on earth, an AK47.