Need help converting my RM6800 setup from 5.1 to 7.1

CAWjr

I have had my RM6800 for years & I love it. I love it so much I want to keep it & convert it to 7.1 because I finally got a new receiver for Christmas. I got a Pioneer VSX-1021-k that has speaker ports for the following:

• Front Main
• Front Surround
• Center
• Side Surround
• Rear Surround
• Subwoofer

My plan is to take the 4 fronts/surrounds in the RM6800 & move them to be the rear & side surrounds. Leave the Sub & Center in place, and add on the front surrounds & simply add on 4 new speakers. Two for the front surround & two for the front main.

In an ideal world, I would add 2 more of the speakers that match the RM6800, but those are no longer available. Can anyone recommend some speakers that would be a good match to the setup I already have in place? I was thinking about the RM7 or RM8 for the front mains, but I can't figure out what would work best for the front surrounds.

Any help you guys can provide would be awesome!

CAWjr

Glowrdr wrote: »

Unless I'm confused - your talking about adding way too many speakers. If you've already got 5.1 setup, you can't just go adding 4 more speakers and get 7.1 lol

Generally you can either run 7.1 by having the Fronts, Center, Sub and Rears (your standard 5.1 setup). The 7.1 gets you sides, OR front surrounds / highs.

Some people I believe have wired both, but they may be using 9 or 11 channel systems (or might even just be switching between the setups in the config?)

So, without knowing what your true intentions are - I just wanted to point out that (based on your statement) you're looking to add 2 too many speakers.

I may be misunderstanding the new receiver I have, but the rear panel & the manual says that is the setup I should have for 7.1 surround. I currently have a 10 year old Onkyo 5.1 receiver that I am replacing with this one.

Look at the image below of the rear of my new receiver. The left speaker hookups are for the front speakers & the right hookups are for Front Height/Wide speakers. I though that you would have front, middle, and rear surrounds (6 speakers), front mains (2 speakers), and a sub.

I'm not an expert by any means, so if I am talking out of my butt, I apologize. :cool:

tonyb

I think what Glowrd is getting at is yes, you can add all those speakers with that receiver, thats what the inputs and speaker connections are for. But by adding all those extra speakers you dramatically reduce the power to all the speakers down to less than 30 watts a channel.

CAWjr

tonyb wrote: »

I think what Glowrd is getting at is yes, you can add all those speakers with that receiver, thats what the inputs and speaker connections are for. But by adding all those extra speakers you dramatically reduce the power to all the speakers down to less than 30 watts a channel.

Ahhhh...gotcha.

So I would be fine just buying a set of bookshelf speakers like the RM7, RM8 or even the OWMs...or is even that just overkill?

Glowrdr

Tony (or somebody else) would probably be better to clarify this for the both of us, but I do not believe you can use the Surround Rears and the Front Heights at the same time? I thought it was one or the other that would be decided by what "mode" you setup in the receiver configuration.

If you can in fact have all the channels playing at the same time - that would be considered 9.1 (not 7.1). Then I would have been wrong regarding the hookup, although Tony would be right at that point. That receiver would not be able to power the full system with that many speakers running. You'd be looking at external amplification (which that receiver does not support)

So I guess in the end, the answer remains the same. It just depends on where the "doesn't work" comes from.

As far as speakers are concerned - I'd just stick with what you have. The problem is that you will take a substancial hit to the rest of your sound that would more than likely not be made up by having the extra speakers. Don't consider the extra channels an addition - think of it more as a redistribution. You won't gain 2 extra channels of power, you will reduce the rest of the channels in order to power the extra speakers.

Hope that helped? I'm sure someone else will chime in and either agree, or provide some real world explanation as to why it works for them since I cannot say I've tried.

CAWjr

Glowrdr wrote: »

As far as speakers are concerned - I'd just stick with what you have. The problem is that you will take a substancial hit to the rest of your sound that would more than likely not be made up by having the extra speakers. Don't consider the extra channels an addition - think of it more as a redistribution. You won't gain 2 extra channels of power, you will reduce the rest of the channels in order to power the extra speakers.

What you say about the 7.1 vs 9.1 totally makes sense & it is exactly what confused me when I saw the extra speaker connectors.

However, I am now more confused by your recommendation to stay at 5.1 instead of going to 7.1. The receiver I have right now is an Onkyo TX-DS747 & I replaced it with the Pioneer VSX-1021-k mainly for two reasons, HDMI ports, and 7.1 surround sound. I am not a pure audiophile, but I have a decent setup in my basement for watching movies & surround sound is important to me. I do not crank it up, but I like the ability to when I want. The power output ranges from 90-130 watts per channel on the spec sheet. If I move the front surrounds to the side & put in just new fronts (not front surrounds), are you saying I will see a significant impact to performance?

I'm not questioning your point, but I find it hard to see the reason to have a 7.1 receiver if you are not going to have a 7.1 setup.

Glowrdr

It's certainly worth a try don't get me wrong. I would look into the possibility of borrowing first before commiting to a purchase though. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 are all just features. Basically look at it this way. With the AVR, you are limited to the same power supply for all channels. In 2 channel, your receiver would kick some serious ****. You probably don't realize the deminished returns you are getting with 5.1. You may or may not realize the hit you would take by adding 2 additional speakers.

I know number don't mean everything - and I know there will be some people that will be the first to jump in and say so. In all reality, it's your ears that will tell you the truth. With that being said - if you wish to compare the numbers (for whatever they mean to you), here are some actual facts.

Your receiver is rated at 90 watts per channel.
Tested @ 2 channel, it came in at 106.3 watts
Tested @ 5 channel, it came in at 46.1 watts
Tested @ 7 channel, it came in at 44.5 watts

Now that I checked it all out, you really aren't losing all that much by adding the 2 additional speakers. The "damage" has already been done at 5 speakers driven. Again - I do want to point out that the testing involves situations in which your receiver will never reach. It is truly hitting 100% of your receivers power, when in all reality - you may hit less than 25% at the loudest volume. I don't want to mislead you in any way - just giving you the facts and letting you decifer them yourself.

Some receivers fair better, some worse. It's all what works in the end.

tonyb

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

As long as he stays with smaller speakers in a 7.1 configuration, he should be ok. But the upgrade bug hits hard, and as soon as you move into more power hungry speakers, you'll have to move up in the receiver department too. Enjoy.

CAWjr

Thanks to you both! It sounds like adding a pair of fronts is the way to go since the power loss is minimal.

Glowrdr...Your input has been great! You are right that 25% of the power in this receiver is all I will likely ever need, but your input has given me a lot to think about all the same.

tonyb...Thanks for the link and the tip on the smaller speakers. I figure the RM6800 speakers are not very power hungry (sans the sub), so going with the RM7, RM8, or the OWMs should be fine. And this receiver is my upgrade! I had my Onkyo for over 10 years. I'm hoping to make this one last that long as well.

CAWjr

CAWjr wrote: »

so going with the RM7, RM8, or the OWMs should be fine

You know, I said this, but you guys are the experts. Am I on the right track with those? Would I be better off with a different speaker? Are the fronts used enough (vs the center) in a 7.1 setup to merit going all out for them?

mdaudioguy

Find the best deal and put them in the back. You want your front three speakers to match. Sats don't represent a significant load, so you should be fine.

TECHNOKID

Welcome to Club Polk CAWjr!

As far as speakers are concerned - I'd just stick with what you have. The problem is that you will take a substancial hit to the rest of your sound that would more than likely not be made up by having the extra speakers. Don't consider the extra channels an addition - think of it more as a redistribution. You won't gain 2 extra channels of power, you will reduce the rest of the channels in order to power the extra speakers.

I fully agree with glowrdr comments above. you have to realize you are limited to the power your AVR provides total. Redistribution of that power is key here which in some cases can be a good thing (depending on your room size and the fact you are not using power hungry speakers).

CAWjr wrote: »

What you say about the 7.1 vs 9.1 totally makes sense & it is exactly what confused me when I saw the extra speaker connectors.However, I am now more confused by your recommendation to stay at 5.1 instead of going to 7.1. The receiver I have right now is an Onkyo TX-DS747 & I replaced it with the Pioneer VSX-1021-k mainly for two reasons, HDMI ports, and 7.1 surround sound. I am not a pure audiophile, but I have a decent setup in my basement for watching movies & surround sound is important to me. I do not crank it up, but I like the ability to when I want. The power output ranges from 90-130 watts per channel on the spec sheet. If I move the front surrounds to the side & put in just new fronts (not front surrounds), are you saying I will see a significant impact to performance?

I'm not questioning your point, but I find it hard to see the reason to have a 7.1 receiver if you are not going to have a 7.1 setup.

You have to realize that content with 7.1 ability is quite rare and without this ability, the surround sound will simply be redistribute to the added speakers.

Glowrdr wrote: »

It's certainly worth a try don't get me wrong. I would look into the possibility of borrowing first before commiting to a purchase though. 5.1, 7.1, 9.1 are all just features. Basically look at it this way. With the AVR, you are limited to the same power supply for all channels. In 2 channel, your receiver would kick some serious ****. You probably don't realize the deminished returns you are getting with 5.1. You may or may not realize the hit you would take by adding 2 additional speakers.

I know number don't mean everything - and I know there will be some people that will be the first to jump in and say so. In all reality, it's your ears that will tell you the truth. With that being said - if you wish to compare the numbers (for whatever they mean to you), here are some actual facts.

Your receiver is rated at 90 watts per channel.
Tested @ 2 channel, it came in at 106.3 watts
Tested @ 5 channel, it came in at 46.1 watts
Tested @ 7 channel, it came in at 44.5 watts

Now that I checked it all out, you really aren't losing all that much by adding the 2 additional speakers. The "damage" has already been done at 5 speakers driven. Again - I do want to point out that the testing involves situations in which your receiver will never reach. It is truly hitting 100% of your receivers power, when in all reality - you may hit less than 25% at the loudest volume. I don't want to mislead you in any way - just giving you the facts and letting you decifer them yourself.

Some receivers fair better, some worse. It's all what works in the end.

At this point, the additional speakers will only provide for slightly even sound distribution however, always consider your front stage as the priority for improvement (this is where your dialogue comes from, the surround effect is minimal compared to a good front stage and a good sub).

tonyb wrote: »

http://www.hometheater.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1021-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

As long as he stays with smaller speakers in a 7.1 configuration, he should be ok. But the upgrade bug hits hard, and as soon as you move into more power hungry speakers, you'll have to move up in the receiver department too. Enjoy.

As long as the system remains dedicated for HT (main goal) you are good but for music with potential larger speakers the OP would have to let go of some surrounding and rear speakers (especially not having pre-outs) or then yes, the AVR would need to be replaced to allow external amplification.

CAWjr wrote: »

Thanks to you both! It sounds like adding a pair of fronts is the way to go since the power loss is minimal.

Glowrdr...Your input has been great! You are right that 25% of the power in this receiver is all I will likely ever need, but your input has given me a lot to think about all the same.

tonyb...Thanks for the link and the tip on the smaller speakers. I figure the RM6800 speakers are not very power hungry (sans the sub), so going with the RM7, RM8, or the OWMs should be fine. And this receiver is my upgrade! I had my Onkyo for over 10 years. I'm hoping to make this one last that long as well.

IMHO, if you must add speakers presence speakers would be your best choice as it would provide for a fuller front stage. I would go with the OWMs instead of RM7s or 8s. Keep your front stage as matched as possible and put the new speakers as surrounds.

CAWjr wrote: »

You know, I said this, but you guys are the experts. Am I on the right track with those? Would I be better off with a different speaker? Are the fronts used enough (vs the center) in a 7.1 setup to merit going all out for them?

Your front stage is comprised of both center and fronts (equally important). The action is going on in front of you, all dialogue comes from that center and is reinforced by the fronts (thus the reason for matching the 3). The presence speakers could add to it. The surrounds are used at lower level, they do a job for a surround effect but this is never as important as your front stage (I ran 2.xx for a long time with great success).

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Find the best deal and put them in the back. You want your front three speakers to match. Sats don't represent a significant load, so you should be fine.

Fully agree!