Over the air HD antenna question......

shawn474

OK, so some of you have been following my thread of getting rid of cable and going with an OTA HD antenna and a roku box. My question is this; I have 2 televisions in the house. My downstairs tv gets about 45 channels from the antenna. I have a smaller tv in the bedroom and only get 20 something channels. Should this be? Or does each have a different quality tuner? If so, would an antenna amplifier help?

Thanks for the input,
Shawn

Glowrdr

Are you using a whole house antenna, or a different one at each spot? While I don't doubt there are different quality tuners - I would expect the antenna itself to have a greater impact.

If you are in fact using a WH intenna - then that shot my theory all to heck.

mhardy6647

So... the two sets are both connected to one antenna? If so, how? Via a two-set coupler or an A-B cable switch?
All things being equal* the difference "must be" in the tuners, I would think.

* The only other obvious variable would be the cable runs between the coupler/switch and each TV. Maybe a difference in quality/condition in one cable vs. the other is introducing some loss?

In 75 ohm coax, everything added to the line introduces some loss. Even an "F to F" union has an insertion loss of about 1 dB :-(

FYI and FWIW, we just stuck one of these out on our old eave-mount rotor. It works pretty well in our deep fringe suburban (nearly rural) location NW of Bahsten. I wish someone still made parabolic UHF reflectors... that would be the ideal antenna for OTA DTV.
http://www.channelmasterstore.com/Digital_HDTV_Outdoor_TV_Antenna_p/cm-4221hd.htm

shawn474

I am using a whole house antenna. From what I can tell, the difference is this: I have the antenna cable running to a splitter. Antenna cable to the in part of the splitter and outputs go to downstairs tv and master bedroom tv. Here is what I found: The splitter has two outputs - one that is labelled 3.5db and one labelled 7db. The 3.5db goes to the downstairs tv that gets more channels. The 3.5db goes to the upstairs tv. I switched them and the results switched (i then got more channels upstairs and less downstairs). Does this make sense and WTH is the point of having two different outputs on the splitter? Should I just get a cheap-o dual 3.5db splitter? And why would this be the case?

mhardy6647

so... is there an amplifier in your splitter? i.e., are those numbers gain... or attenuation?
I'd better bow out; this is something I don't know about, in terms of "modern" hardware :-P
Sorry.

shawn474

Well it just so happens I had a dual -3.5db splitter in the shed. Hooked it up and all is well again. Each TV gets the same amount of channels. I have no idea why that mattered but it did and the wife is ecstatic after seeing how much money we will save. I politely informed her that no cable in the bedroom probably means less interesting television, which means boredom which means a need to occupy the time which means :eek:

She was surprisingly OK with my suggestion..............this could work out in more ways than just saving some money!!!!!!:cheesygrin:

shawn474

OK, last question; I SWEAR!!!! Would I be able to hook this up my AVR to get FM radio stations?

mhardy6647

Most of the modern antennae for DTV won't be sensitive to the FM radio band - it's is between the old VHF Channels 6 and 7, in terms. A VHF/UHF antenna would have some gain in the FM band - as long as there are no FM traps in the antenna or subsequent circuits.

A dedicated FM Yagi (or log periodic) with a rotator and some altitude is still the best way to go.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/fm.htm
(not the cheap crossed dipole at the top of the page...)

disneyjoe7

All good advice here, but will add this a good clean ant amp could help if you're splitting signal since you have an loss by splitting the signal. But on the other hand just splitting 2 way shouldn't harm the signal to greatly, so may try it first before adding ant amp.

Serendipity

shawn474 wrote: »

OK, last question; I SWEAR!!!! Would I be able to hook this up my AVR to get FM radio stations?

Yes, if you have a good VHF/UHF antenna with FM capability. I am running a Radio Shack VU-XR190 ($159) and it does a great job of picking up DTV and FM stations.

The splitter you had before with 3.5dB attenuation and 7dB attenuation meant that the TV with 3.5dB will get more signal than the one with -7dB attenuation. So I would suggest looking for a splitter with high bandwidth and equal attenuation here, especially if you are going to add a third device (the AVR's FM tuner) to the equation.

shawn474

Serendipity wrote: »

Yes, if you have a good VHF/UHF antenna with FM capability. I am running a Radio Shack VU-XR190 ($159) and it does a great job of picking up DTV and FM stations.

The splitter you had before with 3.5dB attenuation and 7dB attenuation meant that the TV with 3.5dB will get more signal than the one with -7dB attenuation. So I would suggest looking for a splitter with high bandwidth and equal attenuation here, especially if you are going to add a third device (the AVR's FM tuner) to the equation.

Thanks Alex. The FM tuner isn't a priority at all. I have never had FM tuners in any of my set-ups; and especially if it would degrade any of the signals I am out on using it. I have ordered an amplifier for the HD antenna just to see what benefits it gives. I did experience some pixelation and drop-outs during normal tv watching so hoping that will help.

Overall, I am not going to miss cable much at all. The only three channels I was missing was AMC (for one show only - The Walking Daead), Discovery and ESPN. Discovery I can get over; ESPN I have figured out a way around it. I am getting a DVI to VGA splitter and running one cable to my computer monitor and one to my television. Then I am able to watch all ESPN programming through my computer on my television. Imagine the money I could have saved if I was smart enough to do this before!!!!!

SDA1C

shawn474 wrote: »

Thanks Alex. The FM tuner isn't a priority at all. I have never had FM tuners in any of my set-ups; and especially if it would degrade any of the signals I am out on using it. I have ordered an amplifier for the HD antenna just to see what benefits it gives. I did experience some pixelation and drop-outs during normal tv watching so hoping that will help.

I am no expert at cable but I have had ota since the first ntsc tuner was available in a tv. I have found that inline amps are good for a stronger signal but the blocking and interruption is before the antenna due to weather or whatever so the amp just amps the signal whether it's clear or no. I also found a vast improvement when splitting off to fm for my receiver. More, clearer stations. I would agree it is imperative to have an inline amp if you plan to split more than once.


Death to Cable!

Serendipity

An amplifier boosts everything, both signal and noise, so if you are experiencing interference (such as bad weather causing the signal to break up), the amp may or may not solve such problems. In some cases, it may make the pixellation worse when the signal is marginal. The amp cannot compensate for poor antenna aiming, etc. So as the signal to noise ratio is dependent upon a variety of factors, best thing to do is to try it out and report the results.

camp21178

I have a cheapy directional FM antenna hooked up to a separate tuner and I'm picking up KQRS from the Twin Cities about 90 miles away. I've also had very good luck with a UHF-VHF antenna because FM is between channel 6 and 7 like previously mentioned.

haimoc

Have you tried a preamp to the antenna? Preamp ensures better signal quality to your TV tuners.
I have Winegard HD7695P Antenna & AP8700 Preamp.

shawn474

haimoc wrote: »

Have you tried a preamp to the antenna? Preamp ensures better signal quality to your TV tuners.
I have Winegard HD7695P Antenna & AP8700 Preamp.

I have a different antenna. This one. And I just installed the exact same preamp that you have. It definitely improved my reception and decreased the drops and cut-outs of the signal, but didn't eliminate them. I think it may have to do with aiming the antenna better. So I will play around a bit when I have time and see how that affects the signal.

pitdogg2

Consider yourself lucky IF you get any FM on that antenna. It's just not made for it.

you'll need a rotor for best results on the HD side

I use this one and it will bring in the FM from 75mi away

http://www.amazon.com/PCT-International-ANCM3671-Channel-Antenna/dp/B0013BTLTG/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325711536&sr=1-3

shawn474

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Consider yourself lucky IF you get any FM on that antenna. It's just not made for it.

you'll need a rotor for best results on the HD side

I use this one and it will bring in the FM from 75mi away

http://www.amazon.com/PCT-International-ANCM3671-Channel-Antenna/dp/B0013BTLTG/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1325711536&sr=1-3

I think I will try to go without anything else and see how often the drops happen and such after playing with the direction of the antenna. Eventually I might go with the rotor. Just for kicks, the remote controlled antenna isn't able to be controlled by the harmony is it? And can you program the rotor to change to a deefault location for each channel. For example if channel 2 tower faces NW, when I change to channel 2 would it automatically move to a NW position?

Thanks again for all the input,
Shawn

Nah, I pretty much gave up on the FM reception, mostly because I would never use it. Just thought it would be cool if I could actually have it after going without for so long.

A rotor huh? This is getting way more involcved and costly then I thought!!!! The point of this was to SAVE money; not to keep spending it!!!!:cheesygrin:

haimoc

shawn474 wrote: »

I have a different antenna. This one. And I just installed the exact same preamp that you have. It definitely improved my reception and decreased the drops and cut-outs of the signal, but didn't eliminate them. I think it may have to do with aiming the antenna better. So I will play around a bit when I have time and see how that affects the signal.

If you have not installed the preamp at the antenna (very closed to the antenna), you might consider to do so. Some people have preamps after 50-100 feet of wiring from the antenna. Preamp should be installed at the antenna output and have it wiring to the house after that.

shawn474

haimoc wrote: »

If you have not installed the preamp at the antenna (very closed to the antenna), you might consider to do so. Some people have preamps after 50-100 feet of wiring from the antenna. Preamp should be installed at the antenna output, and have it wiring to the house after that.

Yep, that's the way I have. Preamp is wired right at the antenna.

haimoc

It sounds like you have everything right, so I guess fine-tuning with antenna aiming or trying with different tuners to see if you're not losing the channels are the next thing to do. Quality of tuners also affect the result of scanning for the channels, too.

shawn474

haimoc wrote: »

It sounds like you have everything right, so I guess fine-tuning with antenna aiming or trying with different tuners to see if you're not losing the channels are the next thing to do. Quality of tuners also affect the result of scanning for the channels, too.

Are you talking about external tuners separate from the built in tuner of the television? Both of my tv's have internal tuners.

haimoc

I would say all tuners (internal, external or tuners for PCs) and not all TV built-in tuners are the same quality.

shawn474

haimoc wrote: »

I would say all tuners (internal, external or tuners for PCs) and not all TV built-in tuners are the same quality.

Thats my guess too. My downstairs tv is a 46" samsung lcd - nice one. My bedroom tv is a 20" insignia - not so nice. I suspect that the internal tuner is not as good and the reason why it is having a few more hiccups

Serendipity

shawn474 wrote: »

Thats my guess too. My downstairs tv is a 46" samsung lcd - nice one. My bedroom tv is a 20" insignia - not so nice. I suspect that the internal tuner is not as good and the reason why it is having a few more hiccups

Yes. Some tuners deal with noise better while others need a higher gain in order to even show a picture but once they lock the signal, they are good. If you are having issues with the downstairs TV, try different levels of signal gain as too low or high an input signal (in dB) may cause the tuner to perform worse.

pitdogg2

shawn474 wrote: »

For example if channel 2 tower faces NW, when I change to channel 2 would it automatically move to a NW position?

Thanks again for all the input,
Shawn
A rotor huh? This is getting way more involcved and costly then I thought!!!! The point of this was to SAVE money; not to keep spending it!!!!:cheesygrin:

My channelmaster will not change direction when i change the channel. but the new digital rotors can be set up to go to that direction when you punch that number on the rotors remote.

There are some up front money to be spent BUT like myself I went deep into it 15yrs ago and have not spent a dime since. It's not like you just keep spending good gear will last a long time. (unless it gets smacked by a tree or lightning.

ViperZ

shawn474 wrote: »

Thats my guess too. My downstairs tv is a 46" samsung lcd - nice one. My bedroom tv is a 20" insignia - not so nice. I suspect that the internal tuner is not as good and the reason why it is having a few more hiccups

Just saw this thread. External Samsung tuners (even 2-3-yr-old DTB-H260F) are very good. I haven't seen a better one than 260F to be honest. Tuner in my G-series Panasonic is also slightly better than the tuner in Sony LCD... So yeah, a lot of them are differnt.

Quality preamp on the antenna will always help (ChannelMaster or Winegard). And always, always make sure that the antenna is properly grounded, because if the lightning will hit that antenna (as being the highest point of your house) and the house will catch fire, insurance will surely check what caused it.

m60cs2

ViperZ, would they not pay if they found out you didn't ground the antenna?

ViperZ

m60cs2 wrote: »

ViperZ, would they not pay if they found out you didn't ground the antenna?

That's what I tried to say. sorry