Clipping the Tweeters

Hannzz

Hi Guys:

I am running Polk RTiA7 fronts, CC Csi A6 and sourrounds FxiA4 with yamaha a2000. My volume level usually between -22db and -16db. I been told if I ran all 5 speakers by this receiver, I can clip the tweeters. Thanks for your advice on this issue.

Stilly74

You can for sure as I did. Running tsi 500's and 200/100 on surround setup of 7.2. Denon 891 amp. Must of had to much volume into it and both tweeters in the 500 are gone. Listening to music from now on in 2 ch setup. Movies only in 7.2

F1nut

Hannzz wrote: »

Hi Guys:

I am running Polk RTiA7 fronts, CC Csi A6 and sourrounds FxiA4 with yamaha a2000. My volume level usually between -22db and -16db. I been told if I ran all 5 speakers by this receiver, I can clip the tweeters. Thanks for your advice on this issue.

One can destroy a tweeter from amplifer clipping when driving a single speaker too. Anyway, I'll assmue that you've been running all 5 speakers at the volume levels you described without issue, so you've got nothing to worry about.

Hannzz

F1nut wrote: »

One can destroy a tweeter from amplifer clipping when driving a single speaker too. Anyway, I'll assmue that you've been running all 5 speakers at the volume levels you described without issue, so you've got nothing to worry about.

Thanks for your reply

Nerd

Hi,

I am runnning a Csi A4 through my onkyo 806. Right now thats the only thnig 806 powers, cos the frnts are through an Adcom 555.

I s there a possibility that I can clip my tweeters in the Csi A4, 806 gives 130 wpc, or later if I run surrounds will that reduce power on my center channel.

mdaudioguy

Nerd wrote: »

Hi,

I am runnning a Csi A4 through my onkyo 806. Right now thats the only thnig 806 powers, cos the frnts are through an Adcom 555.

I s there a possibility that I can clip my tweeters in the Csi A4, 806 gives 130 wpc, or later if I run surrounds will that reduce power on my center channel.

At normal HT listening levels, it's doubtful you could do harm with only 3 channels driven. Anyway, you'd probably harm your hearing before anything else.

B Run

It happens a lot more with entry level receivers, and cheaper speakers but it definitely can happen. I clipped the tweeter in my center channel when I was running the Monitor series. You should be ok just don't run it too loud for too long, and definitely turn it down if you hear distortion.

Hannzz

I placed an order for Emotiva XPA-5 this morning.

F1nut

I'm sorry to hear that.

BTW ya'll, a tweeter doesn't clip, an amp does.

Hannzz

Don't be sorry, did not clip yet...was worried might clip it without extra power i.e an amp, which i bought today hopefully will receive in few days.

F1nut

Let's try this again....

Hannzz wrote: »

I placed an order for Emotiva XPA-5 this morning.

I'm sorry to hear that.

dkg999

Do you know what clipping is? Maybe we should start there.

Hannzz

Someone told me that if you are not sending enough power to speakers and turn the volume high it will demage the tweeter, hence clipping the tweeter. I am not pro in this field ...newbie...so don't know much.

B Run

Everything you need to know: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipping_%28audio%29

Tony M

.............Clipping...........Amplifier running out of head room power.

.............Tweeter Blowing....................Operator turning volume up to much.

.............Tweeter blowing 2nd reason...............there is a elect. short that happens suddenly and most likely within an amplifier.

acid

Hannzz wrote: »

Someone told me that if you are not sending enough power to speakers and turn the volume high it will demage the tweeter, hence clipping the tweeter. I am not pro in this field ...newbie...so don't know much.

LOL you could have asked me for an indepth explination brother i would have drawn you diagrams and all

i suggested you read up on clipping and overheating, you went ahead and posted in forums and bought $800 amp instead. you need to do reasearch/read.

cnh

Stilly74 wrote: »

You can for sure as I did. Running tsi 500's and 200/100 on surround setup of 7.2. Denon 891 amp. Must of had to much volume into it and both tweeters in the 500 are gone. Listening to music from now on in 2 ch setup. Movies only in 7.2

Monitor 70s and TSI 500s and the tweeters in lower models in both series are less "robust" than the tweeters in the Rti-A series. Your amp can still fry them if you push it too much, though. However, running below "reference" levels--which for a lot of AVRs are the zero point before you start to go into negative territory. For example, Denons run from +80 to 0 to -18. I really doubt you can clip that AVR if you're at 0 or below? I'm not saying that it is impossible, but "unlikely" (because there can always be a dynamic spike in a soundtrack).

cnh

rebuy

People go out and buy these things because when they post questions about their equipment or have common concerns others tell them what crappy equipment they have. I see people posting all the time asking about entry level stuff and members are telling them to buy mono blocks and crap to power M70's or the like, not that there's anything wrong with that. Clipping any equipment is always a concern but people also gotta use common sense.

I see folks all the time come in the forum and ask questions and have members tell them to run out and buy an amp or some other product that maybe they really didn't need for the question to be answered or for the level of equipment they already own.
Sometimes, audio is a journey through the different levels, sometimes people have to take baby steps.

tonyb

Have to disagree with you here Rebuy, nobody suggest running out and getting mono blocks for M70's, thats just bad info if it happened and not representable of the forum in general. What we do try and point out is that everything has it's limits. In most cases, alot of people come here because their eyes were bigger than their stomache. They have a HTIB receiver and now want to run A9's from it. We make every effort to try and get a feel for the persons needs first and budget because what they want isn't always doable in their given budget. They have to come to grips with reality at times. Since most of us have been around the block a time or two in this hobby, advice is given takeing all things into consideration with the best path to getting a bang for their buck and eliminating costly mistakes. Does that mean bad advice is never given, of coarse not, this is the internet after all and anyone is free to dish out their own opinions.

rebuy

I think you get my point, somewhat, not entirely, but I do see overkill being suggested to simple questions.

I might even be guilty, just a little, of doing this myself.

Maybe not.

ArthurM

In my opinion, receivers don't have enough power to drive 5 - 7 speakers in a meaningful way. Asking receivers to drive 4 tower speakers (some people use towers for fronts and rears) is madness.

I also know a lot of receivers advertise 100 watts per channel, but I am very doubtful they can push 100 real watts per channel into 5 or 7 channels. I always recommend that people sell their mainstream receivers and purchase used amps / surround preamp.

So here's what I think happens with the tweeters. When an amp runs out of current (power), the voltage spikes. This is not good, because voltage spikes melt voice coils. In addition, the tweeter is usually the first driver to receive the spike in voltage because it requires the least electrical resistance to drive (remember, electricity follows the path of least resistance, regardless of crossover).

So in short, receivers are the problem and not the speakers. Sell your wife's jewelry and buy some real amps. And that's my drunken advice.

Arthur

rebuy

I'm glad it's just your opinion, cause the last H-K I had powered 6 towers and did it well.

ArthurM

rebuy wrote: »

I'm glad it's just your opinion, cause the last H-K I had powered 6 towers and did it well.

Glad to hear the H-K did it for you.

evhudsons

I sold my entry level avr and bought a better one with preout and then bought used amps. That is the way to go, but baby steps is he best way to go. I've been going baby steps for years but went full steam ahead this year after joining the forum. The advice is put there and common sense is apparent to everyone. I didn't have to do what I did but made my decisions based on cp info and advice, positive chance and circumstance, good fortune, and smartly factoring in my audio budget versus other budgets. For instance I decided on two staycations rather than going away for vacation. I live in key west after all so we simply went fishing and diving. Instead of hotels and airfare, I stocked my freezer with fish and lobster. And.., money for my hobby. I fixed and repaired my car and appliances rather than hiring someone.
I'm so incredibly happy with my audio/video kit right now. It's helped me mainly. But my wife and pets and guests have inherently enjoyed music again. I think it's fantastic to have guys here critique noob systems and give advice. I can't afford a top end preamp, and I'm only on a combo system in the living room. I have many steps to climb but I will get there in my own due time. Thankfully I've already saved money by following advice from people who have learned the hard way. My wife just laughed when she saw me writing this and asked if I was making new friends. I said I was hopefully helping some new friends. I have seen people take things the wrong way here but I have yet to see anyone look down on anyone's system. Why bother if you are all that?
I have many weakness's in my setup, from room alignments and lack of treatments, lack of preamp quality etc, but it works well enough for me. I first concentrated on upgrading my speakers, and then feeding them properly. I have MIT cables ordered and on the way. I'm adding a dedicated power circuit next month, as my time and budget dictates. I don't feel bad about posting this on the OP's thread because I think the point is clear that we are all here to learn and to help, no prejudgements are being made. I see some of the most informed old timers here asking questions in new thread for the expertise of others. No one knows everything but this forum is a great place to start.

I'm not intimidated by others top end rigs, I'm inspired.

CoolJazz

ArthurM wrote: »

Asking receivers to drive 4 tower speakers....

I've noticed references lately several times about "towers". Just be clear for newer people coming along later....speaker efficiency (and the loudness you ask of it) is what determines how much power is needed, not physical size. As a matter of fact, often larger size speaker systems are more efficient than smaller ones!

ArthurM wrote: »

So here's what I think happens with the tweeters. When an amp runs out of current (power), the voltage spikes. This is not good, because voltage spikes melt voice coils. In addition, the tweeter is usually the first driver to receive the spike in voltage because it requires the least electrical resistance to drive (remember, electricity follows the path of least resistance, regardless of crossover).

Actually, the clipped waveform from the amp running out of power creates a very sharp edge. That is what high frequency is. Very high! You create a situation where the energy and heat created in the voice coil excedes what the smaller size of the tweeter and it's inherent lower power handling can deal with and you burn up the driver.

Don't mean to pick on you Arthur! Stay right in there...

Hopefully this leaves a clearer explanation on record.

CJ

justlord

evhudsons wrote: »

I sold my entry level avr and bought a better one with preout and then bought used amps. That is the way to go, but baby steps is he best way to go. I've been going baby steps for years but went full steam ahead this year after joining the forum. The advice is put there and common sense is apparent to everyone. I didn't have to do what I did but made my decisions based on cp info and advice, positive chance and circumstance, good fortune, and smartly factoring in my audio budget versus other budgets. For instance I decided on two staycations rather than going away for vacation. I live in key west after all so we simply went fishing and diving. Instead of hotels and airfare, I stocked my freezer with fish and lobster. And.., money for my hobby. I fixed and repaired my car and appliances rather than hiring someone.
I'm so incredibly happy with my audio/video kit right now. It's helped me mainly. But my wife and pets and guests have inherently enjoyed music again. I think it's fantastic to have guys here critique noob systems and give advice. I can't afford a top end preamp, and I'm only on a combo system in the living room. I have many steps to climb but I will get there in my own due time. Thankfully I've already saved money by following advice from people who have learned the hard way. My wife just laughed when she saw me writing this and asked if I was making new friends. I said I was hopefully helping some new friends. I have seen people take things the wrong way here but I have yet to see anyone look down on anyone's system. Why bother if you are all that?
I have many weakness's in my setup, from room alignments and lack of treatments, lack of preamp quality etc, but it works well enough for me. I first concentrated on upgrading my speakers, and then feeding them properly. I have MIT cables ordered and on the way. I'm adding a dedicated power circuit next month, as my time and budget dictates. I don't feel bad about posting this on the OP's thread because I think the point is clear that we are all here to learn and to help, no prejudgements are being made. I see some of the most informed old timers here asking questions in new thread for the expertise of others. No one knows everything but this forum is a great place to start.

I'm not intimidated by others top end rigs, I'm inspired.

I'm glad someone said this, because it needed to be said. With that being said, I find most amps very expensive for people that are starting their HT. Other than the Emotiva's, are there other amps for under $1000 that people beginning can start with?

ArthurM

Used amps from Carver and Hafler, for example, are VERY affordable and quite good, depending on the model. And most are well under $1,000.

The only issue with vintage equipment is that most need a refurb that usually costs $200-$400 dollars per amp. But if you're looking for 7 channel amplification with power amps, it's not going to be cheap, no matter how you look at it. For movies though, receivers should be fine because movies don't require audiophile caliber equipment to enjoy.

F1nut

are there other amps for under $1000 that people beginning can start with?

There is a very nice 5 channel amp with lots of pretty blue caps that MillerLiteScott has for sale in the Flea Market right now, $400.00.

tonyb

rebuy wrote: »

I'm glad it's just your opinion, cause the last H-K I had powered 6 towers and did it well.

Cool, but all towers are not created equal. You could easily run 4 or 6 monitor series towers off a standard avr. 6 A9's though, different story. Both towers, but apples and oranges.