Advice on replacing front speakers

nerdbot

Hi guys,

I recently purchased a Pioneer VSX-1121-K to replace my dead Onkyo TX-SR606, and with some of the great prices lately on the older Polk Audio lines (Monitor, RTi), I've been seriously thinking about replacing my front left and right speakers. For a little (or a lot) background on my setup, here's a diagram of my living room / great room:

As you can see, it's about 29 feet long, 16 feet wide, and it's divided roughly in the middle by doors going into other rooms. The right side of the room is where the cable hookups were, so I decided to layout my home theater using that half of the room (my couch is against the back wall directly beneath the #4 back speakers). The entire room (29'x16') is carpeted.

From the numbers in the diagram:

1. Polk PSW505 (specs link)
2. Monster Streamline 100 Towers (specs link). Bought these for about $80 for the pair about 3 years ago when I bought my Onkyo 606 when Circuit City was going out of business. I knew Monster made overpriced cables, but didn't even know they made speakers. Since this was my first "serious" system, I decided anything had to be better than my old tiny Sony satellites. I can't seem to find a product link on the Monster website, but I linked to a Buy.com page that has the specs.
3. Klipsch RC3 Center (specs link) - given to me by a co-worker. I don't think either of us realized how decent the speaker was until much later.
4. Definitive Technology ProMonitor 800 (specs link) - Mounted on the back wall, about 8 feet off the ground, angled down at the listening area.

And again, I'm currently using the Pioneer VSX-1121-K. So, in my very-beginner-opinion, it seems that the Monster speakers are the "weakest" piece of my home theater - mainly because I haven't seen a lot of reviews on them, so I don't know if I really trust the listed specs or the MSRP of $600 on Amazon.com when they sell for $150 at Walmart.

We mainly watch movies (blu-rays), Netflix, and TV (most channels we watch come in w/ Dolby Digital over DirecTV). We do watch the occasional music concert that airs on TV. I'd say about 10% is gaming, and maybe another 10-15% is listening to music streamed from our computers (mp3s, not lossless). Now that we have the 1121-K, I suspect my wife will be using Airplay a lot to stream her iPhone music to the home theater, but again, most of those are 128-192 bit encoded MP3s.

I wouldn't say I'm a huge audiophile, but I have done a lot of reading lately to educate myself. But, if you tested me to see if could hear the difference between 192 and 128 bit encoded MP3s, I'd probably fail - though I don't think I've ever really tried to seriously test myself.

So, finally, to my original question (sorry for the long wind-up). I've had my eye on the Monitor70 speakers from Newegg for awhile now, since they frequently go on sale for $150/speaker. I've also seen the following on sale recently at different places (prices listed just as an aside):

• Monitor60 ($100/each at Newegg)
• RTI8 ($150/each at Frys.com)
• RTi10 ($250/each at JR.com)
• RTi12 ($340/each at Frys.com)

Which do you guys think would be a good fit for my system? My price range is between $300-$500ish. The RTi12s are a bit out of my range, but the current deal at Frys.com includes a free sub, which I figure I could sell to bring my price point back down (and justify to the wife...)

I've read about timbre matching, and I'm not opposed to replacing my center speaker. If, after getting my new left/right front speakers, I can really hear a noticeable difference, I'd look into replacing the center speaker with a timbre matched speaker. Although, honestly, it'd have to sound pretty bad because I have no idea what mismatched timbre speakers would sound like anyway. As it is, I don't think I hear a "timbre-mismatch" between my Klipsch and Monster speakers right now - but again, I have no idea what to listen for.

Being the sound newbie that I am, I see the array of speakers in the Monitor70s, RTi10s and 12s and my knee-jerk reaction is "those are better... drool.". But, from what I've read here and other audio forums, if I have a decent sub, all those extra woofer cones won't be used because my sub will handle anything below 100Hz (that's what the MCACC config on my Pioneer determined the crossover to be).

Thanks in advance for the help, and again, sorry for the length of the post!

nerdbot

Read a few other threads and I missed some additional information:

All my components are connected via HDMI, and all my wiring is using 12 gauge speaker wire from Monoprice.com (even the in-wall wiring). Our volume level on the Pioneer has been somewhere around -30 dbs to -24ish dbs, and rarely up to -20 dbs if there's a lot of background noise (like the dishwasher or washing machine).

F1nut

I've read about timbre matching, and I'm not opposed to replacing my center speaker. If, after getting my new left/right front speakers, I can really hear a noticeable difference, I'd look into replacing the center speaker with a timbre matched speaker. Although, honestly, it'd have to sound pretty bad because I have no idea what mismatched timbre speakers would sound like anyway. As it is, I don't think I hear a "timbre-mismatch" between my Klipsch and Monster speakers right now - but again, I have no idea what to listen for.

Before you buy anything, try this. Turn off your L&R mains and listen to your center only making notes about the sound. The female voice is a good test track. Then using the same material, turn off your center and listen to your mains only, again making notes. Compare the notes.

reeltrouble1

The RTi12 are very large speakers which sound best with high current amplification. Most use a seperate amplifier with a receiver that has pre-outs. Since you are just getting started I would suggest the RTi10 as they are very nice. I have owned all three of the speakers you are looking at and either of them will do the job, just the RTi10 is a nice step up from the 8's without being to hard on your receivers power supply.

Good Luck and welcome to Club Polk.

RT1

Loud & Clear

Hard to beat the newegg series 2 Polk Monitors, imo. The 60s or 70s and matching CS2 center when they have the special promos are spectacular for the money. You could then move the Klipsch center and get ANOTHER PSW505.

nerdbot

F1nut wrote: »

Before you buy anything, try this. Turn off your L&R mains and listen to your center only making notes about the sound. The female voice is a good test track. Then using the same material, turn off your center and listen to your mains only, again making notes. Compare the notes.

Would you recommend something like a music track, or dialogue from a movie?

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

The RTi12 are very large speakers which sound best with high current amplification. Most use a seperate amplifier with a receiver that has pre-outs. Since you are just getting started I would suggest the RTi10 as they are very nice. I have owned all three of the speakers you are looking at and either of them will do the job, just the RTi10 is a nice step up from the 8's without being to hard on your receivers power supply.

Good Luck and welcome to Club Polk.

RT1

Ok, that's what I figured... RTi12s are a little overkill for me, but the flashy ad price pulled me in. Thanks for the welcome.

Loud & Clear wrote: »

Hard to beat the newegg series 2 Polk Monitors, imo. The 60s or 70s and matching CS2 center when they have the special promos are spectacular for the money. You could then move the Klipsch center and get ANOTHER PSW505.

A second sub? You mean to go with the Klipsch into another room?

Loud & Clear

NO!!! When I wrote "move" I was using a slang term for "sell." The Polk CS2, in my scenario, would take over the center speaker duties for you.

I happen to like the sound of two subwoofers placed near to each front speaker, as opposed to using one subwoofer which I find can sound localized and therefore distracting.

nerdbot

Loud & Clear wrote: »

NO!!! When I wrote "move" I was using a slang term for "sell." The Polk CS2, in my scenario, would take over the center speaker duties for you.

I happen to like the sound of two subwoofers placed near to each front speaker, as opposed to using one subwoofer which I find can sound localized and therefore distracting.

Ahh, ok. Sorry, I wasn't quite sure, so I wanted to clarify.

nerdbot

F1nut wrote: »

Before you buy anything, try this. Turn off your L&R mains and listen to your center only making notes about the sound. The female voice is a good test track. Then using the same material, turn off your center and listen to your mains only, again making notes. Compare the notes.

So I tried this just now with some audio of the women talking off the "Knocked Up" DVD. I unplugged the L/R mains and listened to just the center. Then I unplugged the center and plugged the L/R mains back in, restarted the scene and listened again. At first, I couldn't hear the voices out of the L/R mains at all doing it this way. All I could hear was the background effects (trees rustling, doors closing, background music, etc). I then switched the receiver into just "Stereo" mode to get the vocals coming out of the L/R channels again.

I must admit, the female voices sounded pretty much the same in either setup (center only or L/R only). Does that mean my ears can't pick up on the timbre differences?

F1nut

nerdbot wrote: »

I must admit, the female voices sounded pretty much the same in either setup (center only or L/R only). Does that mean my ears can't pick up on the timbre differences?

So it would seem.

nerdbot

So, given that I can't detect the timbre differences, does that mean I probably won't detect the sound difference of the better speakers I mentioned above?

nerdbot

I redid the test listening to a couple of audio CDs instead, and this time there was a much more noticeable difference. I'm not sure if it's because it's the 2 L/R speakers at the same time vs the 1 single center speaker, but the vocals sound... richer? fuller? on the L/R speakers than on the center. The music sounds the best with all 3 going, but I guess that's to be expected. Some tracks were more noticeable than others - Adele's voice sounded much better on the L/R speakers than the center alone. The difference was much less noticeable on a Dido track, but audio still sounded a bit richer on the L/R speakers. My wife shrugged and said "maybe the center sounds... crisper... ?" (we were really struggling to describe what we were hearing )

nerdbot

Out of curiosity, is there an easy way to determine if my receiver has enough power for a given set of speakers? I'm familiar with watts per channel, and I know that a dedicated power amp is always going to be better, but I figured the 110W per channel on my VSX-1121 should be able to handle most of the speakers I'm looking at. However, I was reading a few other posts on speaker recommendations, and saw someone say that the Monitor70s also run best when hooked up to a separate amp. I believe my receiver had a bit more watts per channel than the original poster in that thread, but it made me realize I didn't really know where the line between "enough power" and "not enough power" was for any given speaker I was looking at (e.g., RTI 10s were suggested in this thread for me, but do I have enough juice to run RTI A7s?)

larry777

RTiA7's are pretty much the same thing as the RTi10's. The 7's replaced the 10's with a different cabinet design having the curved backs. Drivers are the same....and driver layout is the same. I have the RTi10's and they perform very well for my set up. I first used the 10's with a Denon receiver rated at 100 watts per channel and they sounded very good with that power level in a 5.1 set up.

nerdbot

Thanks Larry777, that's good to know.

nerdbot

Well, I think Newegg just made my decision for me. Based on the advice here, I was holding out until I could listen to some speakers to compare Klipsch to Polk (a lot harder than I thought it would be, not many places carry either, let alone both, near me). Or at least wait for a good price on RTi10s or the RTI A7s, and later pick up a bookshelf pair for my front highs from the matching series.

Last night I saw Frys had the RTI12s on sale again for $680+tax for the pair, which had me tossing and turning all night. I woke up to find Newegg is having a sale on the entire Monitor lines - it's like Christmas part II!

This is what I'm thinking of doing:

2 Monitor 70s to replace my Monster towers (incidentally, I just noticed a sticker on the back of the Monster that says their range is 120Hz - 22Khz)
1 Monitor CS2 to replace my center Klipsch
2 Monitor 30s or 40s for my front high speakers

I'm a bit conflicted between the 30s and 40s though. I figure in a HT/movie setting, the 30s would do just fine with all the other speakers in play. However, I was thinking of occasionally using the front highs on Zone 2 to play 2 channel music while we played some family games like the Wii or Kinect (from what I've read, that should be possible?), which makes me lean towards the 40s, but the 40s are so much bigger than the 30s - I'm just thinking of the aesthetics of the speakers mounted to my wall and how far they'll stick out.

Any thoughts/advice on the 30s vs 40s as front height speakers?

mdaudioguy

nerdbot wrote: »

(incidentally, I just noticed a sticker on the back of the Monster that says their range is 120Hz - 22Khz)

Wow. Considering that your sub essentially tops out where your current main speakers "claim" to begin, I'd say you've probably been listening with a big hole in the frequency range. Either Monitor or RTi towers should be a HUGE improvement.

nerdbot

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Wow. Considering that your sub essentially tops out where your current main speakers "claim" to begin, I'd say you've probably been listening with a big hole in the frequency range. Either Monitor or RTi towers should be a HUGE improvement.

Hahaha, yeah. I'd ideally like to go w/ the RTi series, but I can't pass up matching my entire front section for the price. Besides, being new to this, I figure I shouldn't jump in to the deep end right away and should leave myself room to upgrade down the line...

chumlie

No pain, no gain. Jump.

mdaudioguy

nerdbot wrote: »

Hahaha, yeah. I'd ideally like to go w/ the RTi series, but I can't pass up matching my entire front section for the price. Besides, being new to this, I figure I shouldn't jump in to the deep end right away and should leave myself room to upgrade down the line...

You'll probably be fine with the Monitor line, then. Personally, I'd put the Monitor bookshelf speakers that you're considering in the back where you currently have the DT PM 800s. The PMs are wonderful speakers, but are too small in a room of that size, IMO. Been there, done that. You'll get better performance in 5.1 that way.

nerdbot

chumlie wrote: »

No pain, no gain. Jump.

Hahaha, I hear you Chumlie, but my wife doesn't I've got the go-ahead to upgrade the towers, she doesn't know about the front height additions though. I think I can slide this entire Monitor series upgrade/addition under her radar for the price, versus 3 separate discussions of "Towers upgraded", "Center matched", "Front heights added" (separate because there's no way I could afford to do the entire front in RTIs in one shot right now)

mdaudioguy wrote: »

You'll probably be fine with the Monitor line, then. Personally, I'd put the Monitor bookshelf speakers that you're considering in the back where you currently have the DT PM 800s. The PMs are wonderful speakers, but are too small in a room of that size, IMO. Been there, done that. You'll get better performance in 5.1 that way.

You read my mind, mdaudioguy. I briefly considered switching out the DT side surrounds, but wasn't sure if I'd gain much out of it. Essentially, they are mounted about 7 feet off the ground and pointed downwards and directly parallel to the back wall (pointed towards our ears on the couch, not pointing in to the room). So would you recommend the 30s or the 40s for the side surrounds? And what about for the front highs?

mdaudioguy

If you can, go 40s for the surrounds (since that room is so large and it's really only conducive to 5.1) and 30s for height, since I don't think there's a lot of audio information sent to the height channels. I think it's more of a subtle effect, but I could be wrong.

nerdbot

Do you think the 30s will be good enough to handle the occasional 2-channel audio?

mdaudioguy

nerdbot wrote: »

Do you think the 30s will be good enough to handle the occasional 2-channel audio?

Why would you do that if you also had 70s? I'm not sure what you're really getting at, but if you mean for 2-channel use in conjunction with the 70s, I don't really see the need for that.

nerdbot

mdaudioguy wrote: »

Why would you do that if you also had 70s? I'm not sure what you're really getting at, but if you mean for 2-channel use in conjunction with the 70s, I don't really see the need for that.

Yeah, maybe I'm overthinking it or making it too complicated, but this was what I was envisioning:

We've had a few parties at the house now where people really enjoyed the Pioneer 1121's Airplay/Airjam feature - Anyone with an iPhone could queue up some music to play over our home theater system. We also have our Xbox Kinect on the same receiver, and when playing some games where the audio isn't as important (i.e., anything that wasn't Dance Central), a few of us were thinking it would be nice if we could keep the Airplay/Airjam music going while the others continued to play the Kinect.

Short of setting up a separate stereo set, I read that the front height speakers could be switched over to Zone 2 audio, which I think would be a possible way to achieve that purpose. I would put the front height speakers in Zone 2, and play one source from the L/R/C and the other source from the front heights. Theoretically, at least. I'm going to try hooking up an old pair of speakers to the front heights later today to see if it's even possible.

I realize it's a classic case of "first world problems", but dare to dream I guess... :rolleyes:

mdaudioguy

Well, on their own, the 30s would just be small, inexpensive bookshelf speakers that would sound like small, inexpensive bookshelf speakers. They'd be lacking in low-end, but could hold their own for casual listening in a smaller room. In your room, they'd be lost if they were the only speakers playing. As you said, though, you could always try. YMMV.

nerdbot

And I guess I wouldn't be gaining much more (in the low end) by using the Monitor 40s for the front highs in 2-channel, since their response is only a few Hz lower, right?

mdaudioguy

That's probably so.

nerdbot

Ok, thanks MDAudioGuy, I appreciate your advice!

nerdbot

Well, I just pulled the trigger on the order:

2 Monitor70s
1 CS2
1 pair of Monitor 40s

I decided to skip the Monitor 30s and use my DT PM 800s for the front heights instead. I figure since they provide mostly ambient noise, it won't be too much of an issue, and saves me a bit of cash...... to eventually put towards a power amp

I was able to test out the Zone 2 stuff, and it works pretty well - I was able to fire up the Xbox and listen to Airplay out of the Zone 2 speakers. But I was using giant speakers from an old Aiwa stereo system which, from the size, I'm guessing can hit the lows a little better than the Monitor30s or the DT PM 800s would. Also, the speakers need to be connected to the surround back, not the front high terminals like I initially thought. So, it'd be somewhat of a hassle to switch in to the proper config to play 2 audio sources, but at least it's good to know that it's possible.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

nerdbot

One last question... From what I can gather, the Monitor40s don't have a keyhole slot on the back and I wasn't able to see if they have any mount holes on the bottom of the speaker. I've seen most people recommend the AM40 Pinpoint clamp mounts, but the problem is that they only tilt 7 degrees. In order for my current surrounds to be aimed in the general area of our ears on the couch, they're currently angled down at closer to 30 degrees.

Is it a big issue if I can't aim the 40s closer to our ears?