LSi's and HK system Please help

clock245 · October 2003

Hey i have a questions for you guys. Okay i'm afraid of the LSi's 4 ohm rating. The system i currently have is an one LSiC for center 2 LSi25's for front speakers 2 LSi15's for rears and 2 LSiFX's for side surround also a Velodyne CHT15 for a subwoofer, but that is powered and I am not concerned with that. My problem is the receiver. I have a Harman Kardon AVR7200 and I know its rated at 8 ohms to each of its 7 channels. I already have this system coming and I cannot get out of it as far as the receiver goes. How bad off am i? Am i going to have to pretty much eat the money on the receiver and purchase a different receiver? Can you all tell me something i can get receiver-wise that would power this system alright? I am not looking to break the bank on the receiver. something in the range of 1500 dollars I could do, but not too much more. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You.

mantis · October 2003

Look,
allow me to take you down the path of receivers for a minute.

Owning the speakers you own demands the correct receiver to match.You should own a B&K avr507 or something along that line.
Lsi are a high quality speaker package,why would you not match with the correct receiver is behond me.

I'm not jumping on you but If you take a minute to read this,I will guide you in the right direction.

First off seperates are the way to go,but that doesn't mean a high end receiver will not do........I will provide you with a list of receiver I know will work wonders for the speakers you own...

B&K avr507
Rotel rsx1065 or if money is tight rsx1055
Sunfire Ultimate receiver

At this level nothing worng with going with Rotel Rsp1066 preamp and a RMB1075 5 channel amp.

I also noticed the sub you own...bad move for those speakers.You like Velodyne you should own a SPL or better yeat a DD series.CHT is more on the lines for RT series of polk.

If the CHT and lower end receivers is where your wallet allows then I suggest you get out of the LSI series and go for a Killer RT series package.Matching your system will provide max performance.Use less quality components and suffer you will.

Ask and I'll help my man,
Dan

clock245 · October 2003

Okay i appreciate the help, but have an additional question. The receivers you have mentioned are they made for 4 ohm speakers like the LSi's in other words running any of those receivers will not cause damage to my speakers or the receiver itself? A quick question in reference to the HK. Is this not a very good receiver? I had heard alot of good things about it. Just the 8 ohm rating bothered me. The sub is inconsequential to me at this point the subwoofer is the only thing I have not already got yet. If I do use the HK will it not be able to handle it correctly?

organ · October 2003

Buy an amp and use the pre outs on the H/K. You'll be using your H/K as a pre/pro.

Maurice

mantis · October 2003

It's like this man,
I feel you own the wrong receiver.The receivers I told you about are of high quality.High current and will play 4 ohms all day long.

Here's a quick tip that might help you guage the level of receiver you should own.Yor main speakers cost 2500.00 or so,your receiver should be at least this or alittle better.This isn't a perfect formula but can give you an Idea where you should be.

I suggest you get a Rotel RSX1065 and don't look back.Do some research and learn my man.

HK receivers are fine running 8 ohm load type speakers.Guaging gear with the same level of speakers is key.This is where the learning needs to start.Your speakers are and can be considered entry level high end.......your receiver should be as well.

Rotel rsx1065 is 2k retail.Personally I feel the B&K avr507 is the correct choice.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Dan, you do realize that the HK 7200 he has on the way is a lot more powerful than the Rotel 1065 don't you? The 1065's true total power output with 5 channels driven was 106 per. The HK 7200's was something like 142 per X 7. This was both with 8 ohm loads, but nevertheless, it was that much more powerful on the same load.

Clock, you'll be OK with that HK. Especially with the 25s as mains, they have their own built in self powered subs, so the HK will be high passed to the signal it's feeding them, thus reducing the power hungry low bass requirements. The 15s won't be like that, but in movies, the HK will have enough juice to drive the occasional brief passage on action movies that could possibly tax it. It's not like it will be for extended amounts of time. Multi chanel music will probably even be OK on them. Worse case scenerio, you just run the 15s in the rear on small, then you'd still be OK.

clock245 · October 2003

Thanks BigSexy1 for the info. I have another couple of questions for you though. Sorry about so many I just want as much information as possible to have a good system. By the way this system is primarily used for Home Theater. I very rarely use it to listen to music. Just movies. However, my question was what if i changed my rears to LSi25's? i mean 4 LSi's 25's all around? Would this help the situation or make it worse? Also so you think the HK would be fine handling a low OHM load? Without casuing adverse effects to the speakers. I would be more willing to let the receiver get damaged than the speakers because of the cost issues involved. Thanks for all the help guys.

Tour2ma · October 2003

clock,
I think the important point here is you have what you have and you need to see what you can do with it and what you think of the results. At this point I would not start changing anything, I'd ignore the poll and start asking for set up advice for what you have. It looks to me that bass management is going to be your challenge.

The best way to help your HK will be to run all speakers "small", thus removing the deep bass load where the real amp demands reside. HK lists it as a 100 wpc amp x 7. BS1 may be quoting the S&V "list" with his power rating, but HK's power consumtion does suggest that he's close to what it can really do. More importamtly HK specs the 7200's high current capacity (HCC) at 71 amperes. While HK does not specify, I suspect this is total output as it would be a monstrous per channel rating, so the removal of the bass duties will be key.

To remove the bass you'll be running the sub/ LFE out to up to three sub's, the two in your LSi25's and your CHT's LFE inputs. Multiple bass radiators can present considerable bass interaction challenges. Since your LSi's positions will be relatively fixed, I would guess that you will be moving the CHT around some to find it's best fit in the system. Note that I said "up to" above. It's possible that three bass sources might prove too difficult to handle, but we'll cross that bridge...

Anyway, sit back and relax cause there's some work ahead of you. Ultimately you may want to retrace your steps a bit in this area or that, but the main goal of this thread from here on should be to maximize your enjoyment of what you have or are getting.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Clock, if it'll make you feel any better, I was driving a full set of 5 M&K 4 ohm speakers with a HK 8000. Of course, they were all set to small though, but it drove them perfectly with no problems whatsoever at all.
As for the set of 4 25s, I personally feel that it would be great. Not only would it help take some stress off of the receiver, but also that way, you would have your 4 corner speakers identical just in case you ever get into SACD/DVD Audio formats. Set all the 25s to large or full range, and just connect them via speaker wire instead of any line level input to the subs (use that for your Velo.). Even though they are set to large, in effect, they will be a "small" load on your amps since the 25's own built in amps will be handling all the power hungry, heavy low bass content. Also, on the Velo., I'd just use that on movies only, and let the 25's own subs handle music. I do agree with Dan that the Velo. isn't exactly world class, however, it isn't terrible either by any means.

If you are only going to be using this system for movies mostly though, then I'd just forget either the 25s or 15s for rears and just get another set of LSi/FXs for the rear and run them in bipole mode (use the side set of FXLSis in dipole).

BTW, one more thing I forgot to point out last night, with the Rotel receiver Dan recommended, you'd also have to get an additional 2 channel power amp for a full on 7.1 speaker set up. That would only increase the additional expense of the Rotel even that much more over the HK, and IMHO, it's simply just not worth it. The Rotel may actually sound a little bit better than the HK, but it's not going to be by that much, if any. You'd be talking over twice the price in difference.

brettw22 · October 2003

I can't think of a single post where anyone has ever said that HK powers LSi's, let alone does it well. I think that people have tried it, but found the results to be less than desirable, with Denon being in the same boat.

Clock, how much money are we talkin here that you've got tied up into the 7200, and why are you locked into it?

andrewe77 · October 2003

At a VERY CONSERVATIVE 100 watts per channel, you won't have any problems.

bigsexy1 is correct and the rest of you are wrong.

clock245, why don't you call H/K and discuss your situation with them.

Why don't you go over to http://www.hometheaterforum.com and ask some people that actually own the 7200 instead of this Polk speaker forum?

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Andrew, I wouldn't go so far as to say that everyone else is wrong (especially T2M's post), but rather, I think everyone is maybe thinking more along the lines of HK's lower line of receivers, and not their flagship. I know some don't like HK at all, but no matter if you love them, or hate them, make no mistake about it, the power amp sections on their receivers are second to none (OK, well maybe perhaps only B&K).

The HK 7200 will drive the 4 ohm LSis at a very minimum at least as good, and in all reality, probably even better than the Rotel 1065 and anything from NAD too for that matter. B&K however, may be a different story, but look at the difference in price. To top the HK 7200 in power, you would have to go all the way to B&K or even full blown seperates.

Clock, you said the 7200 is a done deal and that you couldn't change it now even if you wanted to. Well, rest easy, because it WILL drive those LSis. Also consider the fact that you got one of the best receivers for the money on the market today bar none.

Fastmerc · October 2003

Clock,
It seems from feedback from HK owners they should be able to handle the average four ohm load. That being said with you being locked into it you will just have to watch it closely for a while. Make sure it is well ventilated...dont stack other components on top of it etc...and check the temp after it has been running a while.

As far as speaker questions go...someone mentioned the 15s not being the same case as the 25s for your amp...well the 15 to my knowledge is also powered...just a smaller amp and woofer arrangement...so changing to the 25s all around wouldnt do alot for you especially when you consider 5 subs could mean alot of cancellation. If your not locked into your speaker selection you might want to consider lsi9s all around and invest the difference you save into 1 or 2 seperate very nice powered subs. Just a thought....otherwise sit back and listen...then play with positions..then sit back and listen...etc...then

ENJOY!!!

Tour2ma · October 2003

bs1,

Thanks for the props.

HK was once one of the great names in audio and their bggest claim to fame was how conservatively they rated their amps. As with many past greats, e.g., Marantz and Pioneer, they stumbled along the way to today, but as with others are trying to come back.

Any concerns one way or another with clock's system are moot at this point.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Fastmerc, the 15 is not a powered tower.

Clock, I wholeheatedly endorse the 25s with their subs set to large as mains, but if, as you already stated, your primary use is going to be movies instead of music, then I still say to forget a rear set of 15s or 25s, or even 9s, and get a 2nd pair of LSi/FX as rear surrounds set to small in bipole mode (With the other set of LSi/FX as side surrounds also set to small in dipole mode). I also agree with Fastmerc about ventilation, stacking, etc. because of heat issues. The 7200 does not have a fan, but it does have MASSIVE heatsinks. Still make sure it will be able to get air. Maybe even put a small fan on it if you can. Wouldn't hurt anything.

T2M, you're right. Their main issue today is QC, but if you get one that does work right, you are set!

polkatese · October 2003

Looking at the spec on 7200, looks like it is rated to run 4 ohms load:

Stereo Mode Power Output 115w per channel x 2, into 8 ohms
Surround Mode Power Output 100w per channel x 7, into 8 ohms
4-ohm/8-ohm Switching Yes
Surround Sound
THX Processing Yes, Ultra, with built-in 7-channel amplifier
Dolby Digital Decoder Yes
DTS Decoder Yes
Dolby Pro Logic Decoder Yes
Digital Signal Processing (DSP) Yes
DSP (DAP) Modes 10
Theater Modes Yes
Conveniences
Multi Room/Multi Source Audio Output Yes
Input Selector Yes
AM/FM Random Presets 15/30
DVD Control Yes
Digital Satellite System Control No
Surround Control on 5.1 Channels Yes
Remote Control Multi-Brand remote control
Connections
5.1 Channel Inputs Yes
Subwoofer Output Yes
Surround Back Speakers Yes
Rear Channel Stereo No
Audio Inputs / Outputs (RCA) 8 / 2
A/V Inputs / Outputs (RCA) 4 / 2
S-Video Inputs / Outputs 4 / 2
Component Video Input / Outputs 2 / 1
Optical Inputs / Outputs 4 / 2
Coaxial Inputs / Outputs 4 / 2
RF Connector Yes
Front A/V Input Yes (with S-Video)
Headphone Output No
Video Monitor Output (S-Video) Composite/S-Video/Component and Optical digital
Preamp Output Main, Center, Surround, Surround Back, Subwoofer and Sub-Room
USB Connector No
A/B Speaker Selection/Connectors Yes / Banana (Sub-Room)
Control Protocol No
General
Power Requirements 120v AC, 60 Hz
Dimensions (WHD) 17-1/3 x 7-5/8 x 20.5"
Weight 53 lbs.

So, Clock, try it out and see how it goes...

clock245 · October 2003

Thanx guys for all the help. So then speaker-wise if i only use it for movies than most would agree to forego the 25/15's for the rear and use 4 LSiFX's? This would be the best for sound? With the Polk's i am getting a good price on the LSi series speakers and so if money were not a concern as far as the LSiFX's go would you still make that decision or would you go differently? Please let me know what you think would be best for someone who uses their home theater system for strictly that, only movies. Thank you for the advice on keeping the receiver cool as well I will keep it well ventilated. Any additional advice or comments is very much welcome.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Clock, there may be some here who disagree, but if you are mostly into movies only, and don't ever really see yourself into ever starting to get into multi channel hi-rez music formats (SACD and/or DVD Audio, of which both may ultimately fail yet just as Beta, DAT, DCC, mini discs, etc.), then there's really no need for a direct radiating monopole rear speaker set such as the 15s or 25s. In theory anyway, if you have side dipoles and rear bipoles, you are covered with a virtually seamless 360 degree surround field.

Go to hometheatermag.com as there is an article about a test they did with a panel of 4 or 5 people about this very subject. You can do a search and find it in the archives under "Surround speaker wars". In short, the majority of the panel like bipole/dipoles at both side and rear positions, and if a monopole (or direct radiator) has to be used, put them on the sides. That having either one or two monopole direct radiating speakers in the rear was the least favorable option of the panel out of the four possibilities of combinations (direct sides/dipole rears, all monopoles, all dipoles, or dipole side/monopole rear).

Here is exactly what the four people in the panel said (notice how 4 out of 4 picked rear dipole/bipoles.

Face Off: Surround-Speaker-Configuration Wars: Page 6

What Do You Think?
I've always been big on clear, distinct, directional sound. I want to hear exactly where sounds are coming from. Once the terms monopole and dipole were explained to me, I assumed that monopole speakers were for methey shoot the sound right at you, so you can hear where it's coming from. This is why I was so surprised with the results of this blind test. I consistently preferred configurations that included dipole speakers. Ultimately, I preferred the all-dipole configuration; however, having at least one set of dipoles (either on the sides or in the back) still filled in the gaps and made me feel like I was a part of the action.
When it came down to picking between one surround back speaker or two, I definitely preferred two. I still want distinct, directional sound, though. With the rear monopoles, sounds that I thought should be directly behind me often seemed to come from one side. I was pleasantly surprised to find that using dipole speakers in the rear eliminated this problem.

Of course, the sound is also affected by the listener's location. I happened to be sitting in the exact middle of the room, and the room was a perfect rectangle with no open doorways or windows. (These people at HT take their listening seriously.) From this location, I definitely preferred all dipoles with a dual-rear-speaker configuration. However, I also thought the sound was good with monopoles on the sides, as long as dual dipoles were used in the rear.Brandon Dahl

I showed up at the studio on a sunny Saturday afternoon, ready to sacrifice my day to the cause of better sound. After eating a Carl's Jr. Superstar and fries (Mike's bribe to get us there), I was ready to sit back and let my ears do the work. We compared the common 5.1 speaker setup with 6.1- and 7.1-channel configurations and then compared both dipole and monopole versions of those arrangements.

Unlike the other listeners, I liked having just one speaker for the back channel, although I did like the sound of the dipole more than that of the monopole. With two speakers in the back, there was almost too much going on. Sound seemed to bounce around. In a room larger than the one I was digesting in (which was 21 feet by 15 feet), two speakers may be necessary. But in a room the size of HT's listening room (or smaller), one speaker was just fine. With one dipole, I thought the sound was clearer, but not to the point of being distractingly obvious. It seemed to add a more even flow when sounds traveled from the right surround speaker to the left. I'd say that you can't really go wrong either way. Two surround back speakers are better than none, but, in my opinion, one was simply more satisfying.John Martorano

Apparently, we didn't have any die-hard Quadraphonic fans on our listening panel. Whenever I espouse the benefits of dipole speakers for surround sound, I'm usually yelled at by some older (or, shall I say, more chronologically experienced) gentleman who says that Quad was the best. These folks always insist, sometimes violently, that surround systems should, like old Quad systems, consist of five identical full-range loudspeakers. These people seem to forget that five full-range speakers are impractical for the vast majority of users and that Quad was, like 8-track, a colossal failure.

That being said and having witnessed the outcome of our direct-versus-diffuse, single-versus-dual Surround EX speaker configuration Face Off (by far the most wordy Face Off title ever), I can continue to recommend dipole speakers for the majority of installations. Sure, for the handful of action movies that utilize discrete effects for a small portion of the film, monopole speakers might be better. However, to me, the benefits these speakers may add to those scenes don't outweigh the distractions they cause with other, more-ambient sounds. Dipoles, on the other hand, only soften the more-discrete effects while enhancing the majority of diffuse sounds. Besides, since the people who like the bizarre or, as Jason put it, "creative" mixing of some 5.1 music CDs are likely the same people who liked Quad stereos, I don't care if they complain. They were going to anyway, assuming they even made it past the first paragraph. For the rest of us, dipoles will offer enveloping sound that won't distract from the action onscreen. Mike Wood

Of the various surround setups we listened to, I preferred the dual rear Surround EX speakers, as opposed to the single one. I liked the fuller, more-enveloping sound. Even though the EX channel is a decoded mono channel, the two rear speakers seemed to create a rear stereo effect.

In the dual-rear-surround speaker configuration, I preferred monopole side surrounds with dual dipoles in back. This seemed to offer the best of both worlds on software that has discretely placed surround information and software that has diffused ambient surround sounds. However, the all-dipole surround system came in a very close second and seemed to do almost as good on making the discrete/localized information just as aggressive and exciting. More tests with other EX software might be helpful.

I preferred monopoles for the multichannel music software that was "creatively" mixed with a different instrument in each channel and dipoles for the traditional "ambient/audience/ reverb" surrounds.

All things considered, I'd go with the monopole side surrounds and dual dipole back surrounds, as this setup offers more flexibility. And, if you can switch your speakers like the M&Ks, all the better.Jason Koehler

Fastmerc · October 2003

Big,
I stand corrected

on the 15s....Im not quite sure where my head was today....but im sure we can all get an idea...

spitting out Sand....petuey......

gshisme · October 2003

Clock,

Musically, once you have listened to the LSi's mated to Rotel, B&K etc., you will want to place the H/K back into it's box. I went from H/K to Rotel and there is just no comparison. With the Rotel the sound is much more defined..natural..not forced at all. Find a Rotel dealer and put on a listen..

Just my quick .02 worth.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

gshisme,
if you read the post, he's already got the HK 7200 on the way and can't get out of it even if he wanted to, so it's really all a moot point now anyhow. IMHO, HK is also a "musical" receiver, more so than say Denon (which is probably better for movies than music). Don't get me wrong, I know Rotel makes fine prodcts, but it wouldn't be so much better than the HK he has on the way as to justify well over twice the cost, especially when his primary interst is movies only.

Clock, do you already have the speakers also, or have you not got them yet? If you haven't, and you are into movies only, why don't you consider Polk's RTi line with an SVS subwoofer instead? That would probably actually be better on movies anyway.

gshisme · October 2003

bigsexy,

I agree the RT's would and do make excellent H/T speakers with the Harman. I have the 600s front..25s rear and 30 center wired to my H/K AVR. And no I am not a Rotel dealer. Just giving a member my .02 worth of experience.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

gshisme, what HK do you have?

gshisme · October 2003

bigsexy,

I have the 320. At one point I was using the preamps with a Rotel 1055 120x5 amp. Sound quality did not change much but as soon as I added the 1066 processor to replace the H/K the improvement in sound quality was very noticable. I firmly believe that the Rotel gives the best sound per dollar available in my opinion.

I love my H/K and RT setup for H/T but again I say the Rotel is one step up over the Harman, especially musically.

Greg

clock245 · October 2003

One more question for you all kind of a different subject, though. I currently have a 5.1 system that I am replacing with the one that i described in the first post. This one will be 7.1 and I was wondering how much difference there is between the 2? I mean just 7.1 in respect to 5.1. Do movies sound significantly better with this system using the HKAVR7200's 7 channel simulation? Are there any movies out there that take advantage of this format? Thanks for the help. Also i think I have decided to forego the LSi'25's for the back and just got with 4 LSiFX's instead of just 2.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

gshisme, well no damned wonder you felt the Rotel is better! Rotel doesn't even make a receiver comparable to the HK 320. The 1055 (the lowest in their line) MIGHT could be considered as comparable competition in the same class to the HK 525 (and even that is doubtful), but definitely not the 320/325! The 320/325's class competition would be more along the lines of like the Denon 2802/2803, etc. Not ANY Rotels! The Rotel combo you had should be considered more than just one step up over the HK 320, musically or otherwise!

I'm also pretty sure the analog preamp section in any Rotel is probably better than those in HK (even their top of the line flagships). However, for the difference in price, you can simply get a quality 2 channel preamp such as those from Adcom, etc. and integrate it into the system, and be even better, while still being cheaper.

I do agree that Rotel is top notch and definitely should be on anybody's short list of consideration, however, I'm not convinced that they are the best sound per dollar. You do get very high quality, but you do have to pay for it too. That said, you do get what you pay for though. I mean, I'm sorry, but the 1055 is about the same price as the HK 7200, and for my money, I'd get the 7200 every time between those two. Also, I'm pretty sure that the 1065 wouldn't be worth more than twice the price over what you can get the HK 7200 for. Plus, all of that is not even beginning to factor in that you would still have to have an additional 2 channel power amp with either Rotel receiver for a full 7.1 speaker set up.

If I were going to buy new Rotels for myself, I belive the biggest bang for the buck would be to get the 1055 receiver, and the 1075 power amp. Then you would have 10 powered channels for 7.1 plus a zone 2 pair of speakers and driving a passive sub, or bi-amping your mains and/or center, etc., or whatever. It would give you some options and flexibility.

clock245 · October 2003

i received an email from H/K about my 7200 and they told me that it could handle 4 ohm loads, but some speakers go significantly below this 4 ohms when handling a lot of bass or explosions at high volume. This may cause it to shutdown. They did however mention that i could purchase an impedence matching system seperatly from a place called niles audio that may help. Have any of you had experience with this? Does it ruin the sound quality or anything? Here is the link to the product.
http://www.nilesaudio.com/products/hp_impedance_matching.html

Tour2ma · October 2003

Would not go that route...

If you route deep bass to your sub, you should avoid the loading HK warned you of...

bigsexy1 · October 2003

clock, I agree with T2M. If you set your center, and 2 pairs of FX surrounds to small, you will be OK. The 25s, even when set to large, will still be OK because they will handle all of the low bass that is sent to them with their own amps, and thus your HK won't have to deal with any of the high power usage low bass because in effect, it will still see a "small" load to drive the 25s. You'll be OK that way without bringing the Niles into the equation.

BTW, have you at least considered a set of RTis plus an SVS sub instead of LSis, especially since your primary interest is in movies only? I honestly believe that considering that you are receiver based instead of seperates, and the fact that you claim you will mostly use the system for movies only, this would be a better route for you go.

clock245 · October 2003

hmm.. i didnt consider the RTi's because for me I work at a small retailer that sells Polk and H/K as a part-timer which is why i am limited to harman kardon. I could go with Onkyo, but they do not offer an accomodation option. My plan is to purchase the H/K and Polk before i quit in about another month. The difference between the two systems at accomodations prices are significant. However, I just assumed that the LSi would perform better for Home Theater. If cost was no option in the Polk line and you only watch movies what would most of you do? If the RTi line would be that much better for movies i would probably go with that then. Are these 8ohm speakers? Also what system would you all recommend if confined to a HK AVR 7200 and anything in the POLK line, cost not being a concern? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

bigsexy1 · October 2003

Oh, ok. Well, I don't blame you then for getting the LSis in that case.

Definitely HK over Onkyo (IMHO, especially with no accomodation from Onk).

Maybe think about getting LSi 9s on stands for mains then, forget the Velo., and get an SVS PB2 ISD sub at a price of about $900? The money you save on getting 9s instead of 25s plus the Velo. should more than offset the SVS.

*****************EDIT**************************

Hell, something else to consider, maybe a set of 15s would actually be cheaper for you than the 9s plus the cost of a set of good stands for them as mains, and just set the 15s to small, especially since the HK 7200 has a bass management system second to none. Maybe later on down the line, pick up an HK PA 2000 (100 watts per X 2) power amp for about $200, and use it along with the main 2 channels on the 7200 to biamp the 15s and run them on large. Just something to consider.

LSi's and HK system Please help

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