How to safely get the most out of my speakers

sprtdude91

Okay, so I'm sure questions like this are asked all the time so I apologize if it's a repeat, but I'm having trouble (with all the receiver settings and such) dialing in my speakers to get the most out of them, without worrying about blowing them.
First off my set up:
I have 2 pairs of Polk Monitor 60's (got a great deal on craigslist so I couldn't resist)
I have a Pioneer SC-35 receiver
Pioneer SP-C21 center, SP-FS51-LR towers, SP-BS41-LR bookshelfs, and 2 SW-8 subwoofers.

The Pioneer set up was great, I just wanted more and had heard great things about Polk and when I found some good deals on craigslist I couldn't help myself. I really wanted the Polks to push my music to another level. Where i'm running into problems is setting the Channel level for each speaker, the db, so that I can crank the music all the way up and not have to worry about damaging the speakers. Any and all help would be great. I currently have the center as a center (obviously), Monitor 60's as front right and left, the Pioneer towers are front wides, the other polk monitor 60's as rears with the book shelfs being rear height/wide. I know it's a little excessive, but hey it's all in good fun. I just want to know what to dial each speaker in as so that I don't have to worry. The Pioneer ones all say they handle 130W and the polks say 200W, the receiver puts out 140W per channel, so where i'm really confused is as to why I cannot fully turn up my receiver with just the polks hooked up? Am I wrong to assume that if the towers can handle 200W and my receiver only puts out 140W that I should be able to turn the receiver to +10? Anything past 0 or even right near 0 and it starts to sound distorted and gets to that point where you hear it and are like uh oh I better turn that down that doesn't sound good. It might just be me being naive in wanting to turn them up all the way, the math (from someone not incredibly technically inclined) doesn't make sense 140W going out, they can handle 200W why can't I blatantly without thinking just crank it?

thanks in advance!
James

tonyb

What your hearing is called distortion. That will destroy your speakers quicker than Linsey Lohan at a free bar. The volume shouldn't be turned up past the 0 mark, even less. The more speakers you have hooked up to the receiver, the harder it works too. Everything has it's limits, monitor 60's are not meant to be concert level speakers. The louder you go on the volume dial, the more distortion you are pumping out and at higher db's, that distortion can kill your speaks. If you want concert levels, try PA speakers, I can't imagine how loud it would be at 0 on the volume dial with M60's.

EndersShadow

What you are hearing is that your AVR is running out of gas and distorting the signal is my bet (not good). In addition it should be at almost ear bleeding levels at max volume so I dont know why you would need to run it that loud 24/7 unless you have a MASSIVE room.

Also you havent told us what you were listening to/watching and how everything is connected (HDMI, optical) to the SC-35 and what gauge wire your running to the speakers.

You could be getting a ground loop from a piece of your equipment, you may need thicker gauge wire, your source might be low quality. There are lots of things that can be wrong, but if you list how how things are connected, what you are listening to that is distorting we should be able to help a bit.

pitdogg2

sprtdude91 wrote: »

i'm really confused is as to why I cannot fully turn up my receiver with just the polks hooked up? Am I wrong to assume that if the towers can handle 200W and my receiver only puts out 140W that I should be able to turn the receiver to +10? Anything past 0 or even right near 0 and it starts to sound distorted and gets to that point where you hear it and are like uh oh I better turn that down that doesn't sound good
thanks in advance!
James

Yea that is called "clipping" and that is one sure fire way to ruin speakers. what clipping means is that your pioneer is way past out of gas so to speak. It is easier to blow speakers with an under powered receiver or amp than one with a greater amount of watts and current/voltage so to speak.

welcome to club Polk hang onto your wallet:)

sprtdude91

I believe I have 14gauge wire going to each speaker, the music is usually hip hop or rap type music coming from hdmi from my computer or from my iphone plugged into the ipod usb port on the front of the receiver. Right around 0 it sounds great, still clear, I was just unaware that going past 0 was bad, I just assumed if the speakers could handle 200W I would be able to turn the music up all the way. It's not normally up all the way, that is very loud I know, when I have parties or know of some I usually bring them and sometimes it is rather large and its nice to know I have them set up accordingly so that if myself, or someone else who decides they like the current song, cranks the volume I won't damage the speakers. The receiver is rated to be able to put out 140W to 9.1 channels, so I didn't think I was over working the receiver, but I guess I could be wrong. Its just hard to constantly monitor who decides to turn up the volume when they like the song, I'm in college and controlling kids during parties is difficult, so I wanted help on setting them up so that if they do get cranked it'll be okay. I know they are not concert level speakers (they still sound great though!) but just for large house parties there's usually a few times people want it cranked, so I wanted to do some research to learn how to safely dial them in to do so. Under speaker set up on my receiver I can set a channel level for each speaker + or - db and I was wondering if any of you had suggestions? Should I leave the polks at 0 and turn my pioneer ones down since they can't handle as much? I'm not trying to go deaf and won't leave it at 0 volume all the time, I just don't want to risk blowing up all my speakers when someone decides to crank the volume. I already (just recently) figured out how to set a volume limit of 0, so that it can't go higher, and from there I wanted to dial them in to get the clearest, loudest form of music I can get when they are turned up all the way.
thanks!

sprtdude91

Pitdogg2, thanks for the welcome! It sure is addicting and I'll have to watch out! So should I look into getting an amp that can put out closer to 200W to truly get the most out of the towers? Even when I have just 2 monitor 60's hooked up to it, it still distorts or clipps past 0, is that normal? Up until 0 and even at 0 it's still crystal clear, very loud, but clear. Should I just avoid trying to go higher with my current receiver? And would an amp make them louder or not noticeable enough that it'd be worth it?

djperez81

First of your pioneer may be 140wpc but thats not all channels driven at the same time, when you run all your channels at the same time you may get half power if that. You can get an SPL meter to calibrate all your speakers to the same level but i really dont think your gonna make them sound any better they will all just be at the same decibel level when playing. I think the only way to get the most out of your speakers is to get an external amp with some raw power.

sprtdude91

So when I want to just play music would I be better off in terms of sound quality and volume just having one pair of polk monitor 60's hooked up so that they're getting more wattage from my receiver? So it's only powering 2 speakers rather than 9?

EndersShadow

You have a couple of problems.

1. Source: You might just be noticing the low quality of the compressed files (itunes, pandora) that your playing from your iPhone/computer at louder volumes where you cant hear it at lower volumes. You should probably check the settings on your computer to make sure your soundcard isnt modifying the sound as well.

2. Wattage: Your Pio doesnt have the power to drive that many speakers that loud without distorting/clipping. You dont have to disconnect them, just change the setting on the Pioneer to "stereo" or "direct" so it will only play out of 2 of the speakers. That saves you from disconnecting your speaker when you want to listen to it loud.

I am hoping you have a video game console of some sort as well. If so a way to see if its the source is to play a cd in your video game console (Xbox 360, PS3, Wii) and play it through your speakers. Then play the same file from your iPhone or computer. If the CD doesnt have the distortion but your computer/iPhone does you need to fix your source. If both still distort at high volumes you've got a wattage problem.

What do you have the settings on your Pioneer set to? With as many speakers as you have I would suggest setting the crossover for the Front Speakers to 80hz, the wides/surrounds to 100hz (or even higher). Set the low pass for your sub to 80.

By not sending as large as a frequency range to your speakers you should get a little bit better sound quality. Your sub will be picking up the slack below 80hz.

sprtdude91

Thanks for the help i'll have to try all that out! I think my biggest problem was expecting too much sound from speakers that weren't designed to break windows. haha

sprtdude91

just using stereo didn't seem to make any difference in clarity, just was quieter not having as many speakers. I still have to try a CD, but for now what seems to be working was turning down the db in the channel setting on the receiver to -6db for each speaker and setting a volume limit of 0. At 0 they are incredibly loud, but still clear for all my music even the spikes where the song will get exceptionally loud for a few seconds. I'll have to try the other stuff and am for sure going to look into getting an amp. Most of all you guys have helped lure me away from the delusion I need the volume turned all the way up when where I have it now is not only safe, but plenty loud!

tonyb

You don't have to turn the volume dial all the way up to get the rated 140 watts into the 2 front speakers. Your most likely getting that at around 0 or a few notches less. Anything above that will be loaded with more distortion, bad. You want to prevent kids from turning up the volume ? Tell them not to touch your stuff or you'll break their fingers. That or a strict you break it you bought it policy.

EndersShadow

sprtdude91 wrote: »

just using stereo didn't seem to make any difference in clarity, just was quieter not having as many speakers. I still have to try a CD, but for now what seems to be working was turning down the db in the channel setting on the receiver to -6db for each speaker and setting a volume limit of 0. At 0 they are incredibly loud, but still clear for all my music even the spikes where the song will get exceptionally loud for a few seconds. I'll have to try the other stuff and am for sure going to look into getting an amp. Most of all you guys have helped lure me away from the delusion I need the volume turned all the way up when where I have it now is not only safe, but plenty loud!

Something to do for your knowledge (and future hearing needs) go to RadioShack and get a SPL Meter and measure how loud it actually is where you listen when you have it cranked. You might be surprised.

If you have a smartphone most app stores have free SPL meters.

More than likely based on your post you were distorting/clipping the reciever. If your looking for chest pounding club bass, go to the club or spend more on subs and turn the gain up really loud lol.....

cfrizz

While your speakers might be able to handle it, your receiver cannot. Most receivers can't handle it. However, you do have a good receiver that does have preouts, so get yourself a 5 channel 200wpc @ 8ohms and hook it up.

What you will get will be greater clarity across the board and better bass. Your speakers will be getting enough power to operate to their full potential.

Now that being said, you can still damage them by going crazy with the volume knob not to mention what you are probably doing to your hearing.

Amplifier brands to look at are Parasound, Outlaw Audio, Rotel, Sunfire, Emotiva, B&K, Nad, Adcom.

Welcome to Club Polk.

pearsall001

First off, set them to small in the AVR at 60/80Hz (whatever sounds best to you) this will free them up from killing themselves trying to produce bass that they simply can't. This will free up the midrange & increase the AVR's headroom. And as cfizz mentioned pick up a nice multi-channel amp & you will be future proofed no matter what speakers you have down the road. There isn't a pair of speakers out there that won't benefit from a nice pair of subs.

sprtdude91

thank you guys very much, I'll definitely start my hunt for a 5 channel amp and make the suggested changed in my AVR settings. One last thing, could anyone, in easy to understand terms, explain how not enough power is bad for the speakers? I just don't understand how it can harm them.

B Run

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 135.7 watts
1% distortion at 171.9 watts

That's PLENTY of power for M60's, I have the same avr on my Rti12's which are very power hungry and do not have that problem. I think it's the source and the quality of the music that is the problem. I've had mine turned up plenty of times and never once heard any distortion. If you were running a regular avr i'd agree, but as far as finding the weakest link in the system, it's not the SC-35.

disneyjoe7

Sounds too me you need a 2 channel amp and not a 5 channel amp.... Save yourself some coin. That is if you're driving just to M60's in music modes.

Steve

pietro944

my god.....I have the pio elite 74TXVI....140 wpc with Polk M70's...In pure direct with no sub,My listening level is -32,
sometimes I go -26 with hard rock,but even this volume level is near ear-splitting.I can't imagine setting the volume level anywhere near 0 or +10.Somethings wrong here,these are 8ohm speakers,you should be able to drive them with chipmunks on a treadmill.....Those are dangerous volume levels,my friend,you're going to fry that amp or your brain,imo.

sprtdude91

B Run, are you going past 0 when you turn it up? I'll have to try and find a better source of music to test the theory. I had hoped it wasn't the receiver, my girlfriends dad works for Pioneer thats why I got that receiver off of his recommendation.

sprtdude91

Pietro, i'm just not sure what you consider loud, cause around 0 yes it is incredibly loud, but not hurting my ears or anything. I watch tv around where you're suggesting, but to bump for a part with 50 or so people they get turned around -10 only going higher for certain songs or if it's a song everyone wants me to turn up. It's not painful to listen to by any means. I was just trying to understand more about the speakers and why they distorted if I went too high.

B Run

If i'm listening to music is stereo or pure direct, i consider -30 a normal volume, and -20 a pretty loud perfect level for my listening. On certain songs i'll go up to about -10 and its very loud, but crystal clear and the woofers are hitting hard! On blu rays I usually keep it around -12. Those are just my settings but i've never needed to turn it up to 0 or anything +.

What's weird is I used to have Monitor 60's running off a Pioneer 1120 which isn't even close to the SC-35 and never had that problem either. It was the same numbers and experience as listed above, just lacking the detail, bass and dynamic range at higher volumes.

sprtdude91

I think maybe I'm just expecting too much out of them, in terms of comparing them to DJ equipment or concert level speakers. They sound great at 0 don't get me wrong, they just get distorted after that, which I know now is because I shouldn't turn them that high. What I did was turn the channels down on all of them to about -6db to -8db and now when cranked to 0 it's the perfect level of loud and clarity all without me worrying about them blowing up. Just so everyone knows, i'm not crazy they are very rarely turned this high only for major parties and it is in a pretty big basement. For a normal party it's between -10 and -25 sometimes less depending on how many people. I just wanted them set up so that if we do decide to turn them up I won't have to worry.

EndersShadow

sprtdude91 wrote: »

I think maybe I'm just expecting too much out of them, in terms of comparing them to DJ equipment or concert level speakers.

That right there is your problem lol. DJ Equipment is meant to go loud without distortion, but "quality" of the sound is lacking.

If you want that DJ gear feel I would suggest Cerwin Vega equipment or Klipsh. They get louder with less wattage than the Polks will.

sprtdude91

I'll have to look into those! Again one last time though, how does not enough power hurt a speaker?
And would I have any benefit to bi-amping or bi-wiring? I have heard the terms, but would love someone to explain to me what they actually mean. haha

rebuy

I've been reading this, thinking this is a prank. Maybe he really does not get it.

Ok, you have AVR rated 1 million watts.
You turn Knob UP till it's putting out 1.5 million watts but the distortion is 50% and that's what burns up your speaker that's rated for 10 million watts.

Once you hit the most an AVR will put out at it's rated power, does not mean it might not put out any more power. It might but it will be DIRTY POWER

---

sizzle tweeters.--burnt them up---and maybe other stuff too like crossovers etc.etc.

rebuy

When you burn your speakers up it will be because you turned it up too loud and the AVR tried to put out more power than it was designed for, try running 5 speakers instead of nine, bet it will sound more powerful. I won't run more than 5 speakers on my AVR because I want more power to the five I'm using.

evhudsons

great explanation rebuy. I think some people think the power rating is the max the avr puts out, not realizing you can continue to push/force the volume past it's rating. It's like trying to go up a steep hill in 5th gear, it's not easy and can damage your car. Adding an amp would be like dropping down in gear and would give it some needed power. It doesn't matter if you are driving a Porsche or a VW Bug the logic is the same. First gear in a higher power car may be like second gear in the bug but you still need more power to adequately push speakers and cars up a hill. Having nine speakers would be a steeper hill than two speakers. Once your speakers are powered adequately, you will smile with the sound you hear. It's not just dj equipment issues or comparisons. I see dj's all the time seriously distorting the sound thinking they need to be louder. They needed more power too.

You might get an amp that has 12volt triggering if you have friends coming over messing with your stuff. I remember my college days and back in 1996 a Tupac Shakur album caused me to take one speaker in for repair, for this very same reason. The trigger will allow your amp to come on whenever someone turns on your avr to start bumping.

And welcome to Club Polk!

decal

sprtdude91 wrote: »

thank you guys very much, I'll definitely start my hunt for a 5 channel amp and make the suggested changed in my AVR settings. One last thing, could anyone, in easy to understand terms, explain how not enough power is bad for the speakers? I just don't understand how it can harm them.

Here's a short article from JBL that explains your query.I hope it helps.
Low power distortion

sprtdude91

thank you guys so much for the help, i'm sure my questions seemed silly but I promise they were legit. This is all new to me, as I said my girlfriends dad got me the system and I just recently explored into getting new more powerful speakers and that's why I came here. Because my receiver puts out more than enough for the Pioneer speakers I have and obviously my assumptions about power when concerning the polks were wrong and it's starting to make sense now.
Could someone point me in the direction of an amplifier? I know there are a vast variety of amps out there and I don't need or want anything crazy just good enough for my purposes. Should I get a 2 channel amp to just power 2 of the M60's or maybe a 4 channel 1200W amp to power all 4 M60's when it's music time, leaving my receiver just to power the Pioneer speakers?

sprtdude91

decal the article was great and definitely cleared up a lot of my incorrect assumptions! I for sure will start hunting for an amp. The last thing I want to do is ruin my nice equipment!