Amp setup

Wassy

I have recently purchased 2 luxman M-117 amps I plan to run them with my luxman R-117 receiver what is the best way to run these amps with this receiver any help would be appreciated

zingo

You would either have the run each amp bridged as monoblocks (if they can support that), or you would have to run them both stereo, and bi-amp your speakers (if they support that). Your receiver would also have to support two preamp outputs to run both the amps in stereo. Would any of those suggestions work?

Wassy

Well I do no that the receiver has 2 pre outs but sorry guys I am new to amps i am not sure how to wire theses things safely how would I determine if the speakers and or amps can be bridged or bi amped?

Tour2ma

Welcome to the Club...

If your speakers each have four speaker wire binding posts, then they are bi-ampable. Just be sure remove any jumper wires or plates that may be in place before wiring them. Assuming your speakers are bi-ampable, then the question becomes how to best utilize your amps.

There are two ways to bi-amp. One way is called vertical; it is where one amp is used to power both sections, i.e., the bass/ low frequency (LF) and the tweeter/ high frequency (HF), of one speaker and the other amp is used for the other speaker. The second way is called horizontal; it is where one amp supplies the LF signal to both speakers and the other amp feeds both speakers' their HF signals.

With two identical amps, as in your case, IMO, vertical is the far better choice. This is because LF amplification is where the vast majority of the "work" is to be found. Vertical bi-amping distributes the workload as evenly as possible. By contrast horizontal bi-amping places disproportionate load on one amp, the LF one, while the HF amp 'loafs' along.

One side note, if your Pre only had a single pair of output RCA's, you could use Y-splitters to allow bi-amping.

Tour2ma

Frickin' edit timer ran out on me.... :frown:

Does your receiver have 2 pre-outs total or 2 pair of pre-outs? If two pair, you're good to go, but if it only has a single pair of output RCA's, you can use RCA Y-splitters to allow bi-amping.

As for bridging... I have no first-hand knowledge of your M-117's, but someone here does...
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?76079-Luxman-M-117-2-channel-amp
And someone at audiokarma tested one bridged...
http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=123601

While I sure help will come along, I suggest you spring for an owners manual. There may even be a freebie in some corner of the web...

Wassy

My receiver does have 2 sete of pre outs and the speakers do have 4 wire bindings.I am currently running 4 of these speakers with the receiver no amps.i have these speakers running in parallel to run these this way I have removed the plates from the bottom set of speakers and left the plates in on the top speakers so for wiring these i ran wire from the top speakers using 2 of the wire bindingsMy guess is to run these with amps is to pull the top plates from the top speakers and run 4 seperate wires to each amp and plug each amp into the pre outs can it be this simple?

quadzilla

I'm trying to understand what you're asking, so sorry.

You have 1 receiver, 2 amps, and 4 speakers.

You want to run all 4 speakers off the 2 amps.

You have 2 sets of pre-outs on the receiver.

If that is all correct, then one run set of pre-outs to one amp, and run one pair of speakers off that. Run the other set of pre-outs to the other amp and run the other pair of speakers off that.

On both sets of speakers, leave the jumpers between the binding posts in place.

Tour2ma

wassy,
qz may have you wired...

If I understand you, you have one pair of speakers stacked atop another pair of speakers and have wired them in parallel... Yes?

You may realize that wiring speakers in parallel drops the effective impedance the amp sees [ I_parallel=1/(1/I₁+1/I₂). For example two parallel 8-ohm loads present a 4-ohm load. Not sure about your Luxmans, but it is often the case that bridged amps do not like low impedance loads.

What speakers are you stacking? Are all four the same make/ model? Just asking to see if another alternative makes sense.

Wassy

Yes the speakers are all the same brand and model they are nuance 440 about 200 watts each the reason they are stacked this way is because this is the way the rep had set them up I have owned these things for about 20 years just getting back into the stereo world just trying to figure out how to set everything up? All your suggestions are greatly appreciated?The amps are are recent addition just not sure how to get the best sound with what I have I also have apair of cerwin Vegas vs 150's I can through into the mix

Wassy

Also can I run a sub with this set up?

Wassy

Sorry for rambling on but this is why these speakers were wired the way they are when I originally bought the first pair of speakers they would clip badly at hi volume so the reps solution was to sell me another set with the guidance of the speaker rep this how they ended up stacked and wired this way?

Tour2ma

Nuance? You north of the border? I guess the Nuance Forums weren't of any help... :cheesygrin: Heard some small-ish Nuances a long time ago, but no idea what model.

Wassy wrote: »

...when I originally bought the first pair of speakers they would clip badly at hi volume so the reps solution was to sell me another set with the guidance of the speaker rep this how they ended up stacked and wired this way?

Wow... a second pair of speakers wired in parallel to solve a clipping problem??? Great salesman... Lousy Electrical Engineer. Are you saying this solved your clipping problem? I ask this out of curiosity only.

More important questions include:
- What size is your listening area?
- How far is your listening position in front of your speakers?
- Are your 440's on stands or directly on the floor?

If you can post a pic of your speaker set up, that might help.

Wassy wrote: »

The amps are are recent addition just not sure how to get the best sound with what I have I also have apair of cerwin Vegas vs 150's I can through into the mix

Add more speakers? Unless you are in a room approaching the size of a small dance hall, I'm inclined to recommend exactly the opposite approach.

I'd recommend that you start by going back to a single pair of your Nuances fed by one of your new Luxman amps and then go from there. Run a RCA IC from the R-117's unused pair of Pre-Outs to one amp, and one speaker wire run from the amp to each 440.

Wassy wrote: »

Also can I run a sub with this set up?

Yes. You can route the speaker wire for one pair of speakers thru a sub, but let's not even think about this for a while.

Wassy

No this absolutely did not solve the clipping problem yes I am in canada.Listening area is 400 sq feet.I sit roughly 15 feet away from the speakers and yes the speakers are on stands just so you no the salesman was really good because that second pair of nuance did not cure the clipping problem so he then sold me the cerwin Vegas at cost and that sure cured the problem but the cerwins just are not that clean great for pounding but that's about it and maybe this is part of my problem wanting speakers that can pound on occasion and still be crisp and clean

Drenis

1. Where in Canada do you live? (If you live in Winnipeg, I'd be glad to assist)
2. Get rid of the Nuances. Bose sounds better.
3. Detailed setup and pictures of your setup will help us help you. I think what we need to start with is 1 PAIR of speakers correctly wired into your output source and go from there...

dudeinaroom

How can you say bose sounds better, that is you opinion. In my experience I have had farts that sound better than bose, butt that's just me. Bose is a very well regarded marketing company for sure.

Drenis

dudeinaroom wrote: »

How can you say bose sounds better, that is you opinion. In my experience I have had farts that sound better than bose, butt that's just me. Bose is a very well regarded marketing company for sure.

I've owned and been around Bose and 5 different products including the 901's. I'm allowed to make that statement. I would take it with a grain of salt. It's just my opinion. We had a store here (now closed) that pushed Nuance hard. But critical listening found a preference to the Bose.

Wassy

I live in Calgary Tour2Ma has a picture up with my exact receiver in this post I unfortunately don't no how to post pictures I have since rewired speakers 2 on channel a and 2 on channel b I do seem to be getting much better performance out of the speakers again but I am still having clipping issues at higher volume that's why I thought a sub might help with the clipping but now that I have the speakers on 2 different channels would I need 2 subs ? Or maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction again I would be willing to replace the speakers if there is something that work better for this set up!

Drenis

Thing is Wassy, receivers (most, not all) don't put out what they advertise for power. For example, some claim 110w x 7 for 7 channels. That's a combined power of 770 watts but if you looked at the back of the receiver to see its maximum power draw, it might say 400 watts which implies that the receiver will only use 400 watts at full tilt. Divide that amongst 7 channels and you get your max output which will probably be distorting quite heavily.

As suggested on here, separates or an external amp utilizing pre-outs are the best way to achieve clean clear high listening levels. Clipping just tells you that you've run out of power and more volume will not equal more db's or the sound to be louder. If you really want to run 4 speakers effectively, you will want external amplification. Period. What I would suggest us hooking up just 1 pair of speakers and turn speaker b off. Listen with just 1 pair. Does the sound have more dynamics? Perhaps a little more headroom? When you enable your other set of speakers, you're essentially cutting the power in half.

Your AVR has pre-outs so you could utilize external amplification if you choose that route.

Tour2ma

Wassy wrote: »

No this absolutely did not solve the clipping problem yes I am in canada.Listening area is 400 sq feet.I sit roughly 15 feet away from the speakers and yes the speakers are on stands just so you no the salesman was really good because that second pair of nuance did not cure the clipping problem so he then sold me the cerwin Vegas at cost and that sure cured the problem but the cerwins just are not that clean great for pounding but that's about it and maybe this is part of my problem wanting speakers that can pound on occasion and still be crisp and clean

wassy,
Not sure how a third pair of speakers solved the problem, but I'll live with that question going unanswered...

Axe the CV's... as you say they are just thumpers.

You are trying to fill a lot of space, ~3200 cubic feet is pretty big, and 15' is fairly far away. And to boot, it would seem you are going for some fairly high listening levels.

Wassy wrote: »

I live in Calgary Tour2Ma has a picture up with my exact receiver in this post I unfortunately don't no how to post pictures I have since rewired speakers 2 on channel a and 2 on channel b I do seem to be getting much better performance out of the speakers again but I am still having clipping issues at higher volume that's why I thought a sub might help with the clipping but now that I have the speakers on 2 different channels would I need 2 subs ? Or maybe I'm heading in the wrong direction again I would be willing to replace the speakers if there is something that work better for this set up!

Again, let's forget the subs for now...

Not sure what you are saying about how you are wired. Does your "a and b" wiring scheme utilize either or both of your new M-117's? Your terminology makes me think you are still on the R-117.

What you want to do is pull the jumpers on the back of your R-117... the ones from the lower pre-out jacks to the "main in" jacks immediately below them. Use a RCA interconnect to route the top pre-outs to one M-117's inputs and wire that amp to one pair of speakers. Then route the other pre-out pair to the other M-117 and wire it to the other pair of speakers.

Try the above and update the thread with your impressions.

Drenis wrote: »

As suggested on here, separates or an external amp utilizing pre-outs are the best way to achieve clean clear high listening levels. Clipping just tells you that you've run out of power and more volume will not equal more db's or the sound to be louder. If you really want to run 4 speakers effectively, you will want external amplification. Period. What I would suggest us hooking up just 1 pair of speakers and turn speaker b off. Listen with just 1 pair. Does the sound have more dynamics? Perhaps a little more headroom? When you enable your other set of speakers, you're essentially cutting the power in half.

Your AVR has pre-outs so you could utilize external amplification if you choose that route.

Drenis,
What model Nuances did you sell and when? General consensus seems to be that modern models are trash, but that vintage models, like the 440's wassy owns, are pretty good.

I'm not sure you read the thread closely. Wassy is running a 2-ch Luxman, a pretty beefy receiver. Yes, it has video management, but it's not an AVR. He started the thread by asking how to best use the two Luxman amps he recently bought. But even if it was an AVR, your "cut the power in half" statement is incorrect for all but the cheapest AVR's, and it's nowhere near true for his old R-117.

Wassy

What brand of RCA interconnect cables do you guys recommend?

Drenis

Tour2ma wrote:

Drenis,
What model Nuances did you sell and when? General consensus seems to be that modern models are trash, but that vintage models, like the 440's wassy owns, are pretty good.

Never sold them. Only demo'd. I don't remember the models. I remember they were larger towers, just didn't like them.

Tour2ma wrote:

I'm not sure you read the thread closely. Wassy is running a 2-ch Luxman, a pretty beefy receiver. Yes, it has video management, but it's not an AVR. He started the thread by asking how to best use the two Luxman amps he recently bought. But even if it was an AVR, your "cut the power in half" statement is incorrect for all but the cheapest AVR's, and it's nowhere near true for his old R-117.

Fair enough.

dudeinaroom

Drenis wrote: »

I've owned and been around Bose and 5 different products including the 901's. I'm allowed to make that statement. I would take it with a grain of salt. It's just my opinion. We had a store here (now closed) that pushed Nuance hard. But critical listening found a preference to the Bose.

You stated your opinion and I mine. No harm, no foul. 901s do not sound too bad, anything else I have heard by Blose(sorry, could not resist) either had muddy/one note bass or has fatiguing treble. Of the sat/sub systems of theirs that I have heard are even worse with lower mid and higher bass way rolled off. It is near impossible to find a bad review on bose because they will bring lawyers into the mix and it's a lot easier to retract an article than it is to fight the good fight. On my myspace page I had 3 articles linked to of bad bose reviews 2 of which have been pulled and give you a 404 error when you try to view them. The source cheap drivers for their speakers use thin resonant cabinets for their satellites and their bass modules are built of wood that is to thin for clean bass reproduction. When it comes to bose we will agree to disagree and that's that. I don't think any less of you for owning bose it's what you like. Who am I to tell you what to listen to just because it's not my cup of tea?

Drenis

dudeinaroom wrote: »

You stated your opinion and I mine. No harm, no foul. 901s do not sound too bad, anything else I have heard by Blose(sorry, could not resist) either had muddy/one note bass or has fatiguing treble. Of the sat/sub systems of theirs that I have heard are even worse with lower mid and higher bass way rolled off. It is near impossible to find a bad review on bose because they will bring lawyers into the mix and it's a lot easier to retract an article than it is to fight the good fight. On my myspace page I had 3 articles linked to of bad bose reviews 2 of which have been pulled and give you a 404 error when you try to view them. The source cheap drivers for their speakers use thin resonant cabinets for their satellites and their bass modules are built of wood that is to thin for clean bass reproduction. When it comes to bose we will agree to disagree and that's that. I don't think any less of you for owning bose it's what you like. Who am I to tell you what to listen to just because it's not my cup of tea?

Hey man, I agree with you. I ditched all my Bose for polks and will never look back.

Tour2ma

dude,
A double post 13 minutes apart? Gotta be a record... :cool:

Wassy wrote: »

What brand of RCA interconnect cables do you guys recommend?

Deep hole there... often seems like there are more opinions around here than there are cables in the universe. It seems from other countrymen of yours that post here that your being in Canada is another wrinkle to consider, e.g., import duty/ hassle and value of the Loonie... but I believe the latter is less of an issue today.

Anyway, that said... once you rise to a certain level of electronics, I think a decent, entry level cable can be a wise investment and in my mind your Luxmans qualify.

I've been a fan of SignalCable IC's ( http://signalcable.com/analog_interconnects.html ). They are solid, well-made IC's from a guy that's been around a decade or so now. Doesn't hurt that he gives we Polkies a small discount to boot; just mention you are a member. For less than $100 you should end up with solid linkage between your R-117 and your twin M's.

Another popular entry level cable around here is bluejeans ( http://bluejeanscable.com/ ). Personally I would stay away from Monster, but that's my bias showing.

Whatever you buy, I urge you to also get your hands on some cheap, stock IC's for comparison. You know, the kind the came with most every piece of gear you've ever bought; the kind every audio nut has in the back of one or more drawers, on a closet self, etc.

dudeinaroom

That's what happens when you have super slow unreliable internet that does not up date, crap it took 10 min. just for this page to load this morning.

dudeinaroom

but it took 15 sec. for that last post to post....go figure.