Columbine Update.....very long

F1nut · October 2003

Columbine Update

Guess our national leaders didn't expect this, hmm? On Thursday, Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. They were not prepared for what he was to say, nor was it received well. It needs to be heard by every parent, every teacher, every politician, every sociologist, every psychologist, and every so-called expert! These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating, and deeply personal. There is no doubt that God sent this man as a voice crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

"Since the dawn of creation there has been both good and evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers."

"The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. Neither was it the NCA, the National Club Association. The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain's heart."

"In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA -- because I don't believe that they are responsible for my daughter's death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel's murder, I would be their strongest opponent."

"I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy -- it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. This was written way before I knew I would be speaking here today.

Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You've stripped away our heritage,
You've outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question "Why?"
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need!

"Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, soul, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation's history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine's tragedy occurs -- politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws."

"Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. Political posturing and restrictive legislation are not the answers. The young people of our nation hold the key. There is a spiritual awakening taking place that will not be squelched! We do not need more religion. We do not need more gaudy television evangelists spewing out verbal religious garbage. We do not need more million dollar church buildings built while people with basic needs are being ignored. We do need a change of heart and a humble acknowledgment that this nation was founded on the principle of simple trust in God!"

"As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes -- He did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America, and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain.
Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA -- I give to you a sincere challenge. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone! My daughter's death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!"

STUFFMD · October 2003

Man that guy's got guts...and I happen to agree with him.....Thanks for the read F1...Stuff

Ron-P · October 2003

Excellent read and I agree 100%.

Peace Out~:D

dorokusai · October 2003

Excellent, I agree...Columbine just became a subject to use as a platform to further alot of peoples' agendas.

Loud & Clear · October 2003

Agree, we need more and more guns. And crack, too; crack doesn't kill people, just the dumb-asses that smoke it. Nuclear weapons don't kill people, just the dumb-**** that grew up in Japan.

PhantomOG · October 2003

I know you are being sarcastic but I think there is a big difference between saying "we need more guns" or "everyone should have a gun" and defending one's right to own a gun.

I've never had a gun and probably never will own one but I feel that I should not have the right to own one taken away from me.

Frank Z · October 2003

F1,
Fantastic post! Really makes you sit back and THINK!!

Loud,
Not slammin ya, but you really need to re-read and try to keep an open mind on this subject. You just might change your stance, or maybe not. Either way, we're cool, just looking at things a little differently.

PhantomOG · October 2003

very diplomatic way of putting it Frank Z. :cool:

basically I feel it all boils down to where each person feels the line should be drawn on how much control the government has on our lives and where responsibilities lie.

people die everyday from millions of things including gunshot wounds. which of these things are you willing to give up YOUR right to in order to "try" to prevent these deaths?

drugs are illegal... why not cigarettes, alcohol, or any poisonous material for that matter?

some people want guns to be illegal... why not knives, baseball bats, or any other object typically used for murder?

it all depends on how much control you want the government to have. I personally don't want the government taking away my right to own a weapon if I so choose.

Loud & Clear · October 2003

Drive by battings? Aaawww **** it, what's the point. Get your cops and robbers on kids, I'm out.

PhantomOG · October 2003

brilliant retort. my eyes are now open and I see that guns are the root of all evil and should be completely outlawed. :rolleyes:

oh well, i should have been smart enough to know after your first response not to try to have an intelligent, civilized discussion on the matter. my bad...

madmax · October 2003

Guns don't kill people. Bats don't kill people. Knives don't kill people. People use these items to kill people.
madmax

Demiurge · October 2003

I agree 100%, but the a lot of it is fabricated. Too bad, because I agree with it 100%....

Snopes

dorokusai · October 2003

Max - Vampire Bats kill people....lol

madmax · October 2003

As I said in another thread, "I'm afraid of Bats".
madmax

Ron-P · October 2003

Well, here is "web-cam" proof that guns do not kill people.

http://www.roughwheelers.com/montego/gun_cam.html

Peace Out~:D

dorokusai · October 2003

Great link, perfect idea

Dr. Spec · October 2003

Most rights and privileges are a double edged sword, and come with a downside.

The right to keep and bear arms brings with it the statistical certainty that a small percentage of the population will misuse guns.

It is no different than the privilege of driving; the vast majority uses vehicles responsibly, but a small segment routinely engages in risky and illegal behavior behind the wheel, and innocent lives are taken every day as a result.

If we are to maintain a society where rights and privileges are recognized, we must also accept the negative consequences of exercising those rights. It might sound harsh, but that's the "cost of doing business" in a democratic government.

If we rushed out to deny, revoke, or no longer recognize any right and privilege that brings with it some level of risk, society would fall into chaos.

Not everyone feels the same way about certain rights. The right to keep and bear arms is more important to me than it is to L&C. Maybe a woman's right to an abortion is more important to L&C than it is to me.

What we have to do as a society is look beyond our own little microcosm and realize that not everyone thinks or feels the way we do about any given right and that while it might not be important to you, it is most certainly important to someone - and in this case millions and millions of someone's.

There are plenty of laws in place to suitably restrict and regulate the right to keep and bear arms and to punish those that choose to violate the same.

An increase in gun violence should not be viewed as a failing of government to regulate firearms; it should be viewed as a failing of society to produce citizens who possess sufficient emotional and psychological stability and maturity to responsibly own firearms.

Gun violence is a socio-economic phenomenon endemic to inner-city neighborhoods. The overwhelming majority of gun violence is committed by drug dealers, petty thugs, gangs, and organized criminals. Contrary to what the social engineers would like us to believe, gun violence is not a hardware problem, it's a software problem. And we allowed it to happen by creating monsters like these.

Doc

burdette · October 2003

I think the point of the original post/talk is being missed.

He isn't trying to make a point on gun control either way. The point is that the problem is within the hearts and minds of individuals. People choose to not be kind, not be loving, choose to be violent.. and his point is that a lot of the reason people make those bad choices is because God and how God would have us treat each other has been removed from the American equation. He is saying that the movement to separate church and government (pretty much anything 'public') has in fact separated America and her citizens from God.

You can own a gun and follow God's will and you'll never use that gun to harm another person or commit a crime. You own a gun and fail to live as God would have you live, and you open yourself to potential acts such as the shooters at Columbine.

He is using guns and the NRA as his example because that is what is close to him, that is how he has been harmed by someone else's choice to remove God from their equation. Placing blame on guns and gun ownership is to miss the point ... that the true problem is within the hearts of people.

RuSsMaN · October 2003

Great posts guys Mark, Doc, etc...

I could care less whether people have guns or not, really.

I have a daisy pump BB pistol in the closet, for those days I want to knock some RC Cola cans off the fence.

Why are guns such an issue? I see the side that guns can result in death or serious injury - but why do the 'pro gunners' want them so friggin bad? Hunting? I can see that, I've got some buddies that hunt, some that fish - they use the tools of the trade whatever they may be.

I've never had an urge, or felt a need to own a gun, much less stand up and argue why I should or should not have the right to. What does the avg schmo NEED a gun for? Protection? If so, from whom? Is it just 'incase' the need presents itself?

I can see it if towel heads were parachuting out of the sky, damn straight I'd protect my home. I'd probably go buy one and learn to use it. Maybe the anti gun peeps feel that when a gun 'incident' happens (even accidental), the odds of it being minor are slim? You know, 'air travel' is the safest way to travel - ****. That stat is based on miles traveled. You are far more likely to walk away from a car crash, than a plane.

Not arguing, I'm not so much as even on the fence with the whole gun control issue, just curious as to the motivating factors and reasoning behind each side of the debate.

PhantomOG · October 2003

I don't think the average schmoo needs to have a gun, in fact probably a very small percentage of the population actually "needs" a gun.

for me, it's not about whether the need is there or not, it's about drawing a line in the sand about where people's rights end and the government takes over.

the fact that there are people who "need" guns for hunting or even self-defense (there are alot of people who probably live in areas not so nice as where we reside) says to me that ownership of guns is where we should draw the line. just because I don't need it, doesn't mean that everyone else should lose that right.

anyways, I agree the problem of violence and murder lies within the hearts and minds of people, and not the weapons they utilize.

hoosier21 · October 2003

Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Plain and simple, right to keep and bear arms.

And yes Russ, it is for the just "incase"

incase you find your local crackhead in your house
incase you country is invaded
incase your own goverment declares you have don't have any rights

Dr. Spec · October 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

......a failing of society to produce citizens who possess sufficient emotional and psychological stability and maturity to responsibly own firearms.

I think we are on the same page, Mark. Emotional and psychological stability and maturity are byproducts of a stable family environment which has been infused with the values, ethics, and morals common to nearly all established religions.

Russ - hunting is the primary reason for me - tools of the trade. Since Edith and I both hunt, we have two of most things:

two .22 rifles for squirrel
two 20 gauge shotguns for rabbit/small upland birds
one 12 gauge for turkey/goose/deer
one .44 Magnum revolver for deer (I use it when she has the 12 gauge)
one .30-06 rifle for big game
one .223 rifle for varmints

I do have three semi-auto handguns. One is a long barreled .22 for target practice and casual/opportunistic small game hunting when walking and scouting during pre-deer season.

The other two are suited for self defense in 9 mm and .40 cal. I have a license to carry them concealed, but I rarely do. Usually only when camping/hiking for the occasional feral dog or rabid coon or coyote.

Violent crime is not uncommon in my neck of the woods so I have (on rare occasions) carried for self defense, but the circumstances would have to clearly dicate the need. Like a trip to a known crime ridden neighborhood at 2 am to pick up a drunk friend from a strip bar because he can't drive home. That 35 ounces of insurance on my right hip feels very comforting at times like that. Conflict avoidance is paramount, though, when carrying a firearm concealed. It can get you into way more trouble than it will ever solve if you don't have the right training and mentality and approach to carrying deadly force.

In the end, the attraction for me is proving to myself and to society that I have the maturity and stability to safely own, carry, and responsibly use firearms for all legal purposes, including if necessary the justifiable use of deadly force in the protection of my own life (or the lives of those under my mantle of protection).

In this day and age when it is fashionable for wrist wringing liberals and know-it-alls to decide what is right and wrong for you and how you should run your life, I can't think of a better way to thumb my nose at them than the responsible ownership of firearms. They hate it when 99.99% of all gun owners get through each and every day without killing themselves or someone else because it is counter productive to their social engineering agenda.

Hell, look what happend in Australia, and Great Britain - guns are essentially banned for all intents and purposes and it hasn't reduced violent crime one bit; in fact just the opposite has occurred - once again to the extreme dismay of anti-gunners.

Doc

Demiurge · October 2003

Hoosier, great post man.

Doc, great post as well.

I own 2 handguns. I like to go to the range for target practice all the time. It's a stress reliever, and I enjoy marksmanship.

I have several rifles & shotguns as well. I use them when I go Duck, Pheasant, Deer, or Quail hunting.

Beyone what Doc & Hoosier said, I think it's important to note that the only problem with a gun is the person who uses it.

Are there accidents? Sure, thats a risk you take. It's a risk that comes with the way our Bill Of Rights is written.

People seem to think that just because that document is old...for some reason it doesn't apply anymore. Thats untrue. Criminals are criminals. They are the same now as they were back then.

Taking away guns from law abiding individuals is WRONG! and it will always be WRONG!

The technology is already there. I could mill a gun in my dads machine shop if I really wanted to. You'll never stop criminals from obtaining guns. Because they're illegal do you think a CRIMINAL is going to give a rats **** if he gets caught with one? He won't.

There is nothing a criminal would love more than to know that you're not armed.

Ron-P · October 2003

Great posts from all.

Personally, I own guns for fun, for sport, for hunting and for protection and a few hand-me-downs as collector pieces. Like Hoosier said, for the just "incase".

Weather guns are legal or illegal, I will always own them.

Peace Out~:D

Demiurge · October 2003

Weather guns are legal or illegal, I will always own them.

As will I. No doubt about it.

Columbine Update.....very long

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