LSi speakers!

Lee Bailey

What's with the prices on that new speaker line? Way too high for us Joe 6-Packs. I know, you gotta pay for that new assembly plant somehow!

Micah Cohen

No no, Lee -- YOU have to pay for more accuracy and better detail and higher quality components. Seen those RING RADIATORS? Can't get em on any other speaker in this price range at all!

(Sometimes I feel like the proud father, and I didn't even have anything to do with it. Which is par for the course.)

MC

Lee Bailey

Here's a place to get your own radiators!

AIG Imagers

I use them on my Polks, and they work great!

-justin-

DOH! Foiled again!

~JB

gidrah

I think I recall an issue of Audio magazine suggesting to do something like this with insulation strip. 1/4 or 1/2 inch I forget. Time to check the stacks. I never did get around to doing it.

juice21

did those really make an 'audible' difference?

Lee Bailey

Originally posted by juice21
did those really make an 'audible' difference?

Yes, they did make an audible difference.

schumach

Lee,

What speakers are you using them on? I have RT1000p fronts and a CS400i front and was wondering if you were using something similar. Do you notice a difference in both movies and music?

Lee Bailey

Originally posted by schumach
Lee,

What speakers are you using them on? I have RT1000p fronts and a CS400i front and was wondering if you were using something similar. Do you notice a difference in both movies and music?

I'm using them on all my Polks; R40s, CS245, and the RT15i. It did bring a more focused sound on everything. One of the cheapest tweaks I've used, other than Vibrapods.

mjk91383

i agree, vibrapods are awesome!

joe

Lee Bailey

I'm a bit disturbed by this statement from the LSi series:

Mirror imaged pairs for tightly focused highs and true three-dimensional imaging with minimized room reflections: Hear what you’ve been missing!

Is this to say that your prior products have not been delivering a true reproduction in sound?

Micah Cohen

You know Lee, you're feeding right into the things that make Paul squeamish about good copy.

The fact is, the ring radiator tweeter (along with other engineering marvels in the LSi speakers) does produce a level of detail that you just can't get in dome tweeters. That's because the tweeter material is better supported, breaks up less and at a much higher frequency. From what I understand. And putting it in a psuedo D'Appolito array with Cascade Tapered crossover settings to minimize room reflections results in a very different sort of sound.

In my living room, LSi9's revealed previously unheard detail in recordings that I thought I knew by heart from listening to my RT55i's. They were closest in response to the RT35i's actually, which I also find to be very detailed and open.

I heard more of the music that I loved with the LSi's. Thus, the copy point that you will "hear what you've been missing." I certainly did.

Do my RT55i's suck now? No. I love them. They flat out ROCK. Are they as advanced as the LSi Series at accurately revealing detail? Maybe, maybe not. The LSi Series is a completely different animal, meant for a different job than that of the RTi Series.

"We make the world's best mattress." Serta says that. Go on the Serta forum and pick a fight about it.

Chrysler makes "The best minivan ever." How do they know? Better yet, Cadillac boasts "The most powerful SUV in the universe." How'd they test that?

You see what I'm getting at? Do I have to mention that Bose is "The most respected name in audio"? (Do you respect them?)

I'm not being difficult here -- and this is all in good humor, Lee, I'm not picking a fight -- but I won't be able to produce good, enthusiastic rah-rah ad copy if you pick on this stuff.

RAH-RAH Polk Audio! That's me.

MC

TroyD

I think some folks don't realize that we are talking apples and oranges here.

For example, take George's Carvers. Those things flat out kick ****. Does that mean my speakers suck, of course not. Again, we are talking apples and oranges.

Troy

Press on Micah, you are doing a great job.

juice21

both great speakers (well, i am assuming the LSi's will be), each geared toward great home entertainment, just slightly different audiophile budgets. I think offering both of these lines is great, it gives me a polk audio product to upgrade to now(since the SRT system is no more):D

the LSi line looks very impressive, but for now i am VERY happy with my RTi's. I see it as polk offering a quality product at all levels, for everyone. thanks polk!

Lee Bailey

Thank you for your response Micah. Now, will the LSi's become available in the lower price range that most of can afford? I'm not bashing here, I too love my Polks. I just think they need to look at what they are saying to those of us who love their products. This is after all, and OPINION forum.

Micah Cohen

Paul loves to hear that -- "See, Micah? If we say they are great, someone will call us on it. So we can't say they're great." -- and I wither under the call since I deep down inside know that advertising is for the most part smoke and mirrors about image.

But I'm a firm believer in the power of the positive superlative. (Polk, as opposed to, say, Def Tech, is not.)

BUT... These are some of the difficulties of an industry that thrives on change and on the concept of "upgrade" and multiple lines of similar products: someone somewhere is going to say, Hey! You mean to say that MINE doesn't do what that one does?

LSi is not for you if you have to ask about it, that's the idea that Matt wanted to express. He wanted to get back to the time when Polk Audio was an elite AUDIOPHILE brand name. Boutique shops, demo rooms, mom & pop audio specialty shops. SDA was one of these things: something that no other speaker company had (and no other Polk line had, altho it did not impinge on the performance of other Polk lines). Now, the ring radiator tweeter and exclusive LSi crossover recipe is "that thing." No one else in our price range has it. (Making it yourself doesn't count in this instance.)

"LSi is not for you," in the same sense that compact RM speakers are not for you if you're a floorstanding full-range kind of speaker person. They just don't exist in your world. You have no need for them.

LSi gets Polk Audio back to level of sophistication and a price point that we have not been at in years and years. They are important as a flagship line, to re-establish Polk as a player (in case we had stopped being one).

It does not impinge on the rest of the Polk Audio line in any way. In fact, like the floorstanding speaker fan ignores the availablity of compact speakers, you could be a Polk fan and ignore the fact that the LSi exists -- like happy owners of RT35i's would never ever consider the RT5000 System, with those massive 4-piece mains.

What I'm trying to say I guess is this: The LSi's'll be there if you want them -- top of the line all the way. But if price is an obstacle, there is nothing at all wrong or missing from products like the RTi, R or RM Series.

Each line has its strengths and emphasis, and of course each line has its weaknesses. Hopefully you are a Polk owner because the strengths outweigh the weaknesses for you.

MC

- "The only card you'll ever need" (ARIA Visa card -- is it the only you have since they said this?)
- "The most reliable truck you can buy" (that's for the Mitsubishi Fuso... So what do all you Chevy truck owners think now?)
- "The best celebrity news on the web" (that's E! Online... Who measures what's BEST in "celebrity news"?)

TroyD

I knew you were underpaid. I think that you have squarely hit the nail on the head in terms of the biggest challenge of the LSi line. How to bring it off without alienating current polk owners or making them feel as though they have inferior products. I think that Paradigm has somewhat the same challenge with thier multiple lines (Monitor vs. Reference) And to a certain extent, I think some resent companies with multiple lines as i think it tends to create a division sort of like first class and coach.

In short, I think that is what we all have to appreciate, is that the LSi is inherently different. It ISN'T for everyone and it in no way detracts from the RT line...

Troy

Aaron

I don't know how anyone could not grasp the concept of multiple product lines. I mean, I realize there are a lot of stupid people in the world, but give me a freakin' break! There's always something better than what you have; the objective is to get the best thing you can afford. So you can't afford the LSi line? Don't sweat it. There are better speakers than those out there too. The question is, are there better speakers out there for the same money?

Aaron

rskarvan

Hey guys... I think we are missing something here.
Its called "economies of scale".
What Polk is trying to do is have their cake and eat it too.
Polk wants sales volume from circuit city sales and they want
prestige from the LSi line.

A long, long time ago... I learned that price and cost are really not all that related. I ask you this.... is the LSi speaker all that more expensive to produce and market than the RTi speaker?
The answer is "probably not".

I think the real audio solution is to push the technology envelope by offering the BEST technology at all product price levels.
You don't need (or want) fifty speaker models when you can please all the customers by offering just a few LSi speakers.

I would recommend that Polk entirely switch over from RTi to LSi (or, whatever is the best technology) and let economies of scale provide the profit and cost benefit.

In short, Polk is hurting their own image by offering both lower-grade and high-grade speakers with a common brand name. What they should be offering is unique/premium technology at whatever price level that they feel the market can maximize profit. Then, the profits should be re-deployed into yet better, more unique audio technology; thus, establishing Polk as the industry technology leader while the rest of the guys play catchup.

My 2-cents. I now step down from zee soapbox.

gidrah

Great job Micah! Maybe if Polk hadn't made their previous lines so great without exagerating the price like most manufacturers do, this wouldn't have even come up. I can't wait to audition them. I put the cheap in frugal, but I am willing to pay for quality sound. I also understand that if you want the top shelf it'll cost a little more. If they float my boat, I'll buy 'em.

Aaron

Paradigm seems to be able to able to pull off this feat of having its cake and eating it too. Why not Polk?

Aaron

Micah Cohen

I think you guys in general understand the situation. I do have to touch on just a couple of points.

I would recommend that Polk entirely switch over from RTi to LSi (or, whatever is the best technology) and let economies of scale provide the profit and cost benefit. In short, Polk is hurting their own image by offering both lower-grade and high-grade speakers with a common brand name. What they should be offering is unique/premium technology at whatever price level that they feel the market can maximize profit.

But then, Polk would be back in the small, boutique-manufacturer box we started in, ie: a tiny, specialized brand like the ones who take out those quarter-page B&W ads in the back of unreadable audio magazines: "The Most Superior Speaker Ever... Only two pairs made per year, order yours by calling toll-free..." That's not what Polk Audio is today. Today, we are the world's second or third largest-selling manufacturer of loudspeakers. That kind of size (all hats off to Polk customers who made Polk that way) demands a different business model, one that stipulates different lines for different distribution sources, who don't like to cannibalize each other.

The idea that there's a lower and higher grade is a fallacy. I'm confident when I say that both (all) Polk lines are the best technology and feature-set (and PERFORMANCE) you can get, whether it's ring radiator tweeters or real wood finishes, at the price points hit by those products. Which gets me to...

Maybe if Polk hadn't made their previous lines so great without exagerating the price like most manufacturers do

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but I don't think our prices are exaggerated at all. In fact, I don't think that you can get the performance and service we offer at the price we ask, anywhere else. I'm confident that we are fairly priced. Even our most expensive stuff is reasonably priced when you put it up against what you'd have to spend to get that performance and service anywhere else, I believe.

Polk Audio definitely wants the volume of sales provided by an outlet like Circuit City. That's what you need to keep being one of the big boys. And Polk Audio, I believe, feels a little hurt by the audiophile elite who may have disregarded us in recent years because of our appealling to the wider market, just like you forsake that cool little band when they hit it big and get popular. LSi Series is like our cool little band's "second album," a return to its roots, a re-appeal to the audiophile elite who may have turned their backs on us when we hit "the big time."

Whether it's cake, and whether we're eating it, those are other stories.

MC

Aaron

Maybe if Polk hadn't made their previous lines so great without exagerating the price like most manufacturers do, this wouldn't have even come up.

Micah, I believe you did interpret that incorrectly. Gidrah is trying to say that unlike other manufacturors, Polk makes a great product without exagerrating its prices.

Aaron

Micah Cohen

Oh.

Okay. Sorry about that.

I agree.



MC

rskarvan

Let me elaborate just a bit.

Back in the days of old, Polk introduced a new laminated driver technology that clearly was groundbreaking. Also, in days of old, Polk introduced SDA which was also clearly groundbreaking. These are UNIQUE technologies.

The LSi will certainly be a really good speaker. But, its not groundbreaking technology. At best, it will equal the quality of existing audiophile companies (example: Thiel). What made Polk great in the 80's was that they broke new ground and made substantial improvements in the old speaker market at affordable price-points.

I think the LSi's will be a really good value.
But, they aren't anticipated to be the cat's meow. I could be wrong though - admittedly.

I would love to know exactly just how much research went into developing Polk-exclusive technologies for the LSi series speakers. Or, was this just technology that was purchased from venders off the shelf and re-packaged with the Polk logo?

Don't get me wrong... I'm happy with Polk.
But, the LSi speakers don't represent the gigantic leap that the old Monitor's and SRS series speakers represented a few decades ago. The LSi's are merely evolutionary... not revolutionary.

TroyD

I think we need to realize that NONE of us have heard them so it is a bit premature to be saying the LSi's are or are not this or that.

According to some past conversations, this new tweet while others have it, none at the LSi price point and this is made by Polk, not from a vendor if memory serves.

My personal opinion is that with the exception of SDA, which (and I am just reciting, not endorsing) some dismissed as a gimmick, Polk and most other speaker companies have been essentially tweaking speaker technology that has been around for decades.

My personal opinion is that evolution is a good thing, a very necessary thing.

Troy

Micah Cohen

My original postioning statement for LSi was "The Evolution of the Polk Sound." But Paul's "Loudspeakers For Serious Listeners" is much more inclusive and better.

Let me say that the ring radiator tweeter is not something Polk made. We bought the technology when we realized that the research we were doing (into tweeter technology) was already done in the form of this VIFA ring radiator tweeter. What we had to do is figure out how to present that tweeter and its advantages in a cost-effective Polk speaker. Crossover networks had to be worked out, cabinet thingies (I'm no techy) had to be tweaked, and manufacturing had to engineered to make this speaker sound amazing, and cost Polk-ish.

How much cost effective "R&D" is going on now? Not much. The most R&D of course is done by way high end audiophile boutique companies, the ones that sell way expensive speakers that they make in their garages. What we're doing -- a lot of the time -- is simply tweaking technologies to suit our purposes: engineering crossovers, cabinets and drivers to make the Polk sound. So even if we bought all of our components off the shelf, putting them together and making them sound Polk-ish is not as easy as just building a box and sticking the stuff in there. For one thing, Matt would hear it and fire everyone!

Oh to have a specialized, unique technology like SDA... A marketer's dream... In the meantime, we have to make the best of current technologies by combining a world class innovation like the ring radiator, with the serious Polk technologies (Power Port -- it's patented, man!) and producing an accurate speaker that you and me (well, not me) can afford.

I'm going home now. Have a great weekend! BUY SPEAKERS! Watch movies!

MC

Jay M

yes yes I like LSi speakers!!!!!!!!

gidrah

I've been trying to cut down the size of my posts and it seems to have not worked. I was talking about those other companies exagerating their prices. On average, Polk has always produced quality speakers that blow away anything in their price range and some in the next price range. Quality speakers need quality components. Quality components cost money. All put together with quality workmanship.

rskarvan

Micah,

Regarding:
So even if we bought all of our components off the shelf, putting them together and making them sound Polk-ish is not as easy as just building a box and sticking the stuff in there. For one thing, Matt would hear it and fire everyone!

Response:
It sounds like if I want really good sound, I have two options:
a) Buy Polk Speakers that have tweaked crossovers and premium vender-supplied components.
b) Build DIY Speakers that have tweaked crossovers and premium vender-supplied components at 25 to 50% of the Polk LSi price.

Sure, you could argue that Polk has done the optimization of the Polk-sound. True. But, most DIY designs have been tweaked and optimized by other audiophile DIY'ers.

I want audiophile sound. But, if I can buy the same Vifa components that Polk buys... why shouldn't I build em myself from proven DIY designs at a substantial cost savings over the LSi price?

Now, if Polk offered unique, proprietary technology that is other-wise not available; that would be different. That was once the case.

When you get a chance, go ask Matt if he likes the fact that his surname-company has decided to become a follower rather than a leader in the audio industry. Don't think I'm just a critic though; mostly, I like Polk Audio. But, off-the-shelf technology is just that.... available to anyone.

TroyD

I think the same could be said for about anything though. Theoretically, I could buy all the parts and make a computer similar to what any company makes. Or, expensive maybe, but if I had the facilities and know-how, I could go buy a car part by part and assemble it myself.

My point is that speaker technology with a few exceptions hasn't changed all that much in the past few decades. Sure, you have different materials for the drivers, tweek the crossovers etc. but the fundamental principles haven't changed all that much. Kind of like cars, they are different and improved over the years but still operated under the same principles.

Not having heard them (AHEM) I can't comment but I am willing to bet that the same Polk philosophy applies, build a speaker that sounds twice as good as it's price tag. I doubt that the decision with the LSi line was conciously or unconciously to say, "OK, this is where we start **** people and charge them a premium price for a product that just doesn't justify it."

I understand Ron's point and certainly respect it, I just happen to see it a different way.

Troy