Am I under powering these speakers?

MalVeauX

Hey folks,

So I'm a headphone guy. But recently built a film room. It works. Sounds good. But I have this feeling that I'm not powering the speakers properly. So I wanted to run it all by you experienced folk to let me know if I'm just not putting enough juice into my speakers.

Currently have:

2 x Monitor 70's (fronts)
1 x CS1 (center)
2 x Monitor 40's (surrounds)
2 x PW505's (subwhoofer, on y-splitter to run two)

My receiver:

Onkyo TX-SR308

So from what I'm reading, here's what we have from that receiver:

"65W x 5ch (8 ohm, 20 Hz-20 kHz, FTC)"

And from the speakers:

Monitor40's are 8ohm and 89db/mw
Monitor70's are 8ohm and 90d/bmw
CS1 is 8ohm and 89db/mw
The subs have their own built in amplifiers (right?) so do not draw from this (right?).

I'm not sure what the power ratings mean. The 20watts to **** watts. Does that mean it takes a minimum of 20 watts to properly power and can handle up to ****?
Also, is the "65w x 5ch" 65watts per channel or is that 65 watts divided into 5 channels so that it's 13 watts per channel (and thus very under powered for the M70's?)?

Problem is, I have no idea if that's enough.

Here's what I'm experiencing from the Monitor 70's: I hear treble out of the tweeter, and muffled mids and some muddy bass from the rest of those 4 drivers. Not very loud either. It gets louder when I turn it up of course. But I don't hear all the frequencies coming from each driver. The Monitor 40's sound fine, like they always did. The CS1 sounds fine. The Subs do what they do regardless of the receiver's power output (right?).

So am I under powering these things?
Do the 70's need more juice?
I currently have them wired on the bottom bracket on it's plate. Does this matter?

Any suggestions if I am under powered what I will need to sufficiently push this setup?

Any other suggestions or advice that I'm missing?

Thanks so much for your time and consideration.

Very best,

dorokusai

Yes, the subwoofers have their own amplifiers. They have nothing to do with your problem.

Have you tried just using one pair of speakers, like the MON40 since they're simple, nothing else, and really rocking them out? If your soundstage changes and the sound is better, than YES, you need more power. If nothing changes and the sound is still muddy and not what you're expecting, it's a deeper problem. You could also hook up your center channel to the left or right and see if the condition changes and/or sound improves. You may have blown a tweeter or two....who knows.

You can use either the top or bottom set of binding posts to power them but ensure you have the plate installed between them both.

MalVeauX

dorokusai wrote: »

Yes, the subwoofers have their own amplifiers. They have nothing to do with your problem.

Have you tried just using one pair of speakers, like the MON40 since they're simple, nothing else, and really rocking them out? If your soundstage changes and the sound is better, than YES, you need more power. If nothing changes and the sound is still muddy and not what you're expecting, it's a deeper problem. You could also hook up your center channel to the left or right and see if the condition changes and/or sound improves. You may have blown a tweeter or two....who knows.

You can use either the top or bottom set of binding posts to power them but ensure you have the plate installed between them both.

I'll try that in the morning, since it's mid-night here now. I'll hook up just the Monitor 70's and nothing else and see what they do.

Very best,

Glowrdr

I would say yes, you are probably underpowering with that receiver. One thing that you can do that should help, is change your speaker settings to "small" if they aren't already. I'm guessing they are currently set to large.

By changing this setting, you will use your receivers power for mids and highs, and let the subs take care of the lows. This will take some load off the receiver since the lows are really what take the most power. I'd start with the standard 80hz crossover setting and go from there. Using your M70's in full band mode really isn't an option until you get into something with some heft to it (Pio Elite or comparable) or external amplification.

Edit - almost forgot... check your sub settings in the receiver, and choose the sub setting that says LFE Plus, or something similar to that. This will allow the sub to take over the bass, not just the LFE soundtrack for movies.

Welcome Aboard!

MalVeauX

Glowrdr wrote: »

I would say yes, you are probably underpowering with that receiver. One thing that you can do that should help, is change your speaker settings to "small" if they aren't already. I'm guessing they are currently set to large.

By changing this setting, you will use your receivers power for mids and highs, and let the subs take care of the lows. This will take some load off the receiver since the lows are really what take the most power. I'd start with the standard 80hz crossover setting and go from there. Using your M70's in full band mode really isn't an option until you get into something with some heft to it (Pio Elite or comparable) or external amplification.

Edit - almost forgot... check your sub settings in the receiver, and choose the sub setting that says LFE Plus, or something similar to that. This will allow the sub to take over the bass, not just the LFE soundtrack for movies.

Welcome Aboard!

Thanks!

I'll try that small setting (yes, they're set to large) and take crossover from 150hz to 80hz and see what happens. I have not seen an option that says "LFE plus" for the sub, unfortunately.

Do you have any recommendations (model numbers) for receivers that would provide the power needed, and perhaps some overhead (or simply an external amp that would suffice for the M70's at least, the rest seem fine).

Very best,

cfrizz

Welcome to Club Polk Mal. All speakers sound better when you give them more power. I will never have less than 200wpc @ 8ohms in an amp driving my speakers.

When I got a Parasound 1500A my 21 year old RTA-8Ts speakers came alive with greater clarity across the board. I now have a Sunfire 405wpc 5 channel amp driving all my speakers & it sounds great.

In order to get an amp, you would first have to upgrade your receiver to one that has preamp outputs, yours doesn't.

You have put together a very nice system, you should get the most out of it by making sure your speakers are operating to their full potential.

Glowrdr

I can't comment much on amps since I have none. But for receivers, there are lots of choices out there. The ones that I can personally recommend that would give you more than enough power would be the Pioneer Elite series - try looking for an SC-07/35/37 or the new 55/57. Best bang for the buck though would be a used 07 if you don't need 3D HDMI, otherwise you are looking at the 35 or newer.

You may also want to check into Harmon Kardon as they tend to have some good amplification behind them. Granted, it varies by the models, but generally speaking, I'd prefer a 100w H/K over most other 100w receivers.

EndersShadow

Personally get a NAD AVR w/ HDMI. Put in the money up front realizing your good for a long time. I had a 5 channel Carver amp hooked up to some Magneplanar MMG's and while it sounded good it was TROUNCED by a NAD amp WITH LESS WATTAGE (per spec's).

My next avr will me a NAD with Audyseey MultiEQ and I might be done with those upgrades for a long time

Personally when my first big piece of gear was an Integra DTR 5.9 AVR that I overpaid for (799) but its been the one piece of gear I cant justify replacing yet since besides having the latest EQ, its still decodes everything else. It was the smartest decision I made since it has pre-outs.

Anyway you look at it, get an AVR with the features you want with pre-outs so if there is an issue with to little power you can add a used dedicated amp later on to fix it.

MalVeauX

Heya,

So I did some additional reading around to see what people with the M70's thought about the power requirement to make the speaker sound like it's potential. Looks like most people are citing 100watts to 120watts being where it needs to be. Also read the same response, a muddy sound, exactly like I experienced. So between the advice here and the reading I've done, I'm sold on the idea of getting something more powerful to put some higher current/wattage into these things.

So looks like I'll be getting a new AV receiver, and potentially looking at getting an amp. I'd really like to get something that is 7.1 this time so that I can get some side surrounds (I'm thinking M60's) in the future.

Based on that, any recommendations for something that can do 7.1 channels with roughly 100watts~120watts per channel? Or perhaps something that can do 7.1 but has pre-amp outputs? Would really appreciate links to said receivers/amps, as I'm having trouble pulling up good information on them at the moment. Anyhow, would appreciate it if possible.

Thanks for the help so far everyone.

Very best,

EndersShadow

Throwing out the suggestion of a Pioneer SC elite model of some sort with ICE power. Those AVR's are MUCH closer in real world measurements to their listed spec's per channel. Just make sure to get one w/ pre-outs.

NAD stuff is good to, but its all dependent upon what your willing spend, so you might want to give us a number to work within

MalVeauX

EndersShadow wrote: »

Throwing out the suggestion of a Pioneer SC elite model of some sort with ICE power. Those AVR's are MUCH closer in real world measurements to their listed spec's per channel. Just make sure to get one w/ pre-outs.

NAD stuff is good to, but its all dependent upon what your willing spend, so you might want to give us a number to work within

Thanks.

I'd probably like to stay under $1000 for now.

Anything that can do the 7.1, 100~120w per channel, pre-amp output in that range? Or would it be more economical to get something that simply does 7.1, has pre-amp out, and get a separate amplifier for the 70's specifically and allow the weaker receiver to push the 40's and center?

Very best,

MalVeauX

Heya,

Thoughts on this model (RX-V2600) (Yamaha link)?

Does the wattage. Has the 7.1. Price is good. Has pre-amp output on everything. I can get it used too, so like $300 or something.

You guys think that would do it for me?

Very best,

Glowrdr

That's a tough call, probably someone else here will have to chime in. Let's say your budget is 1000 as stated. You buy a $300 receiver, that leaves you with 700 for amp and cables. Perfectly doable without much hesitation.

I myself opted to spend it all on a receiver and go without the amp. I always have the option down the road since it has preouts, but it is plenty powerful to run what I have now. But either way, you almost end up with the same results in the end as long as you have the features that you want.

EndersShadow

Speak of the devil here is a used AVR from a local forum member. Its got pre-outs and decent spec's for an AVR.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?121007-onkyo-TX-SR805

Tour2ma

MalVeauX wrote: »

I'll try that in the morning, since it's mid-night here now. I'll hook up just the Monitor 70's and nothing else and see what they do.

MalVeauX wrote: »

I'll try that small setting (yes, they're set to large) and take crossover from 150hz to 80hz and see what happens.

In the first two replies you received you got some really good advice on how to check out and then begin to maximize what you have. You may have followed up, but haven't posted any results indicating you did. Had you posted results, then help on calibrating your system and locating your subs (they look to me to be placed for appearance rather than function) would surely have followed. With mains set to large you have four sources of bass in much of the LF spectrum, and they are just as likely to be fighting each other as not.

That said.... room size (volume) is a significant factor in determining power/ speaker/ sub requirements. Open adjacent areas (like your stairwell and your louvered door closet/ utility area) need to be counted in the room volume. Yours appears to have a basement HT. Dimensions? Suspended acoustic ceiling or drywall on rafters/ floor jousts? Are there other open, adjacent areas not seen in the pic?

I know it's really up to you on how you want to proceed, but just be aware that until you understand why your system is falling short now there's a chance that one, $1000 AVR later, you may end up no happier than you are right now.

rebuy

I agree with Tour. You don't have them set up properly and mixed with your room acoustics it sounds bad. Sometimes audio is not plug and play. You do have one of the less expensive Onkyo's and it not gonna sound as good as the more powerful ones because the amps designs are different. Set up properly, the Onkyo an the Polks can sound good. If it sounds muddy, it's a room-sonic-set up problem not a speaker problem

MalVeauX

Heya,

Thanks for the replies. It's my work weekend so wasn't able to go into detail quite yet.

My place is a condo, I don't really have enough space to truly just put all this stuff anywhere, so this was the most convenient place along with my furniture. It actually sounded fine to me, when I was just using some M40's (fronts) and M30's (surrounds). And yes, the subs are mainly there to keep them out of the way of the rest of the room, though I may move them soon. The sound change came when I put in the M70's. Then after reading the suggested power for them, I realize I'm falling quite short on the power output for that sort of thing. I also need to install banana plugs so I can do plug & play a lot to tink around with things. At 65w, it looks like I'm just really under powering those M70's though. I found a nice Yamaha that does 130w per channel and it's used, does 7.1 and has pre-outs for everything. It's nearly half the cost of retail and looks good. So I might nab it just to have another toy that is more powerful to play with in the mean time.

I'll try the above two things soon as report back. Thanks!

Very best,

MalVeauX

Hey guys,

So I unplugged everything except the Monitor 70's. I set the receiver to be in just Stereo mode. And started playing music and then played with the config. They definitely sound more full now. No more mud. When I set them to small, it's all mids & treble. But quite clear sounding. When I set to large, boom, the bass starts thumping. They sound a lot better, more clear, setup like this. Really nice.

I take it, the receiver does more wattage per channel when simply set to stereo, yes?

Again in this current setup, the sounds were never muddy in the same positions. So it wasn't an acoustic imbalance due to room I think. I think it's a lot more to do with simply not having enough power for the M70's.

Thoughts?

And thanks for everyone's help & patience.

Very best,

Tour2ma

MalVeauX wrote: »

I take it, the receiver does more wattage per channel when simply set to stereo, yes?

Again in this current setup, the sounds were never muddy in the same positions. So it wasn't an acoustic imbalance due to room I think. I think it's a lot more to do with simply not having enough power for the M70's.

There ya go.... good start.

First, more watts/ ch? Kinda, but not exactly... more likely a current limitation at your AVR's transformer develops when pushed in multi-ch, surround mode (especially with mains set to Large), but we still may be good to go AVR-wise. So there's room for optimism.

It's definitely premature to say that acoustics have been eliminated.

To begin checking the acoustics I suggest your next step be that you add the subs to the mix with the AVR still in stereo mode. Don't know your AVR, but I'm guessing you can program this option. If not, just unplug the center and surrounds.

With just your mains and subs in action see how it sounds with mains both large and small (with cross-over set around 85 Hz or so). If muddy happens one or both ways, disconnect one of the subs and repeat. Then repeat once more with only the other sub in play.

MalVeauX

Tour2ma wrote: »

There ya go.... good start.

First, more watts/ ch? Kinda, but not exactly... more likely a current limitation at your AVR's transformer develops when pushed in multi-ch, surround mode (especially with mains set to Large), but we still may be good to go AVR-wise. So there's room for optimism.

It's definitely premature to say that acoustics have been eliminated.

To begin checking the acoustics I suggest your next step be that you add the subs to the mix with the AVR still in stereo mode. Don't know your AVR, but I'm guessing you can program this option. If not, just unplug the center and surrounds.

With just your mains and subs in action see how it sounds with mains both large and small (with cross-over set around 85 Hz or so). If muddy happens one or both ways, disconnect one of the subs and repeat. Then repeat once more with only the other sub in play.

Heya,

Tried some more of the suggestions. I agree that sound acoustics are not ideal, but they were not the source of mud I think, since there was not mud before in the same location, simply with a change to the M70 from the M40. A lot of things are at play there, but just hearing them in stereo compared to when they were split into the 5.1, it makes me a lot more inclined to think it's power. But maybe I'm wrong, so trying more things out.

I added one sub to the mix to keep it simple for now, while in stereo mode. Same sound. Sounds great. Just added the sub bass slam of my sub to it. I set the speakers to large with a crossover of 80hz (it does 10hz increments). Sounds good. The mids are clear and the treble is great. Tested on music and movies. I like to use Avatar as a movie benchmark because the opening has a lot of nice sub bass, some interesting mids/treble and some speech to test the full range in a short span. It sounded great just as the two M70's and a single sub. Plenty of volume. Plenty of slam. No mud. Per my other post, I've unplugged completely my centers/surrounds and left only the fronts plugged into the receiver just in case for all of this. When I set the speakers size to be small, it only changes a little since the sub is there and the crossover is so low. Still sounds good. But I felt it sounded like a little less body, so went back to Large setting and liked that better.

Now if only the surrounds & center would work with this and I'd not need to get a new AVR or AMP. I'll try that tomorrow again to see how it changes when I set it back to surround sound on the 5.1 channels, for now I have to go to work.

Thanks again.

Very best,

Glowrdr

Sounds like you're making some good progress. All it takes though is one person to sell something cheap to throw a wrench in the whole project. Next thing you know, it's out with the old - in with the new.

Good luck.

Tour2ma

Good going... Don't worry about your slight preference for large at this point... you still have one sub in reserve and we may be able to "goose" them a tad to make up for the small loss in small mode.

Roughly what are your room dimensions? Size of added adjacent, open spaces? Is the HT on ground floor (concrete) or upper floor (wood frame)?

Agree we're creeping closer to a power issue, but not there yet. What we're still trying to do here is see how much your primary bass radiators (subs+mains) may have been interfering with one another. So far it doesn't seem to be the case, but we still have one primary suspect to go... sub #2. Not that the center and surrounds can't create a problem, but their bass extension is more limited.

Next suggested step:
Add the 2nd sub in the stereo, 2-ch mode test. With the X-over still at 80 compare the large/ small selection. FYI - the x-over is only in play in "small" mode.

After the two sub check it'll be time to ask how you've calibrated your HT and head toward a 5-ch large vs small test.

Ultimate goals here are to get everything working together (or at least not against each other) and then see how much load we can shift from the AVR to the subs without reducing your grin factor.

MalVeauX

Heya,

The room is roughly around 14 feet by 25 feet or so, ground floor of a condo (concrete) on tile and I have throw rugs around.

The two subs working in tandem sound great (phase set to 0 & 180). I like having two at lower volume, it just feels more impactful when it drops a low tone. When set to small speaker with crossover at 80, it sounds good. I still feel it sounds a little warmer and fuller with it set to large, but it's probably because I'm just a basshead or something.

Placement isn't ideal right now. I mainly have them there for the look and to get them away from the center of the room and all because my down stairs is a little oddly planned out (stairs on the far left of the room so can't block that off, there's a bathroom in the corner to the right, a laundry room, dining area and a separate kitchen, etc. Again, it's a two story condo. So I don't have just one big room with nothing else in it down stairs. Any ideas where subs would be ideally placed?

I guess next will be to get my center and surrounds back on and see what it sounds like.

-- Any thoughts on the RX-V2600? I can get it for $275 used and it's 130w per channel, 7.1, has pre-amp outs.

Very best,

Tour2ma

MalVeauX wrote: »

The room is roughly around 14 feet by 25 feet or so, ground floor of a condo (concrete) on tile and I have throw rugs around.

The two subs working in tandem sound great (phase set to 0 & 180). I like having two at lower volume, it just feels more impactful when it drops a low tone. Any ideas where subs would be ideally placed?

I guess next will be to get my center and surrounds back on and see what it sounds like.

-- Any thoughts on the RX-V2600? I can get it for $275 used and it's 130w per channel, 7.1, has pre-amp outs.

Heya back... (kinda cool greeting... :cheesygrin: )

Yup, next up is 5-ch check. How much flexibility does your Onk have? Can you set Mains, center and surrounds individually to small, or is it all or nothing?

Couple comments on the V2600...
- That it's price seems a bit high based on recent ebay auctions. Three of them have sold in the past two-weeks and none was over $200. Low was $145; one was $191.49; the third was a best offer of $200 or less.
- Yamahas tend to be on the bright side, especially compared to your Onkyo. Your Mon 70's also are considered to be bright. The combination might not work for you.
- Also suggest you spend a bit of time on-line reading its manual just to be sure it's not missing some feature your Onk has that you'd miss.
That said... if it's local, mint-ish with remote, manuals, boxes and you can get seller to come down to the low $200's, you won't be out much, if you don't like it.

Room size: 14 x 25 x 8.5 (a guess) = 2975 cu ft which is already pretty damn big already... plus the stairwell (maybe 500 cu ft)... plus I'm guessing there's a bedroom hall at the top of the stairs. So you're pushing maybe 4000 cu ft total... Believe it or not what that kind of room volume will really tax are your twin PSW's.

We should be able to make up for that little something you are missing with your mains set to small, by goosing your subs' volume settings each a bit. We may even find a room placement where the room gain will give us this boost for free, i.e., without turning up the sub volume. However, while I'm trying to guide you toward shifting burden from your AVR to your subs, the room size is pushing you to lean more heavily on your AVR. The room wants you to drop the x-over point to reserve your subs power for LFE. On the plus side you are reporting good experience so far, so hang with me a bit more and we'll see where this goes.

The solid floor is a good thing. The rugs are a non-issue. Rugs, wall coverings, drapes and such are high frequency (HF) tamers (generally a good thing), not LF drainers...

Time to ask you about calibration. How did you calibrate what you have? Choose to set subs at opposite phase? Choose to run both subs "cool" (volume dialed down). Nothing is necessarily wrong with any of the choices you've made, but need to understand how you got where you are.

As for placement... mosts subs default to a front corner and are moved along the front and side walls to optimize them. The easiest way (not the only way though) to manage bass from twin subs is to co-locate, i.e., stack, them (with them definitely in the same phase as each other). But there is a trick that avoids moving 100+ pounds of subs around a room... you put the subs at your primary listening position and crawl around the edge of the room to find their sweet spot. More on this later...

A corner option doesn't appear to be available in the pic you posted, but there is some wall to play with. Not that the swap would be easy given the flat screen wall mount, but is the other end of the room an option for the front stage or is that the dining room? If it's the dining room you may have to decide which is more important, HT or eating... :cheesygrin:

MalVeauX

Heya,

So I just watched a movie with all the speakers plugged in. Ran it in Neo Cinema or whatever that is. I had all the speakers set to small. Ran the subs at equal phase. Not high volume, but just under 12 o'clock on each. Crossover set to 80hz. Worked out great. I enjoyed the sound. I need to play more with the sound settings though. I actually keep everything flat except treble, I added a few dB of treble as I just prefer that sound, it gives it an edge during movies that I enjoy. The different preset settings though, some are good, some I just don't know what's going on. Like, "All channel" or "Neo Cinema" or "Direct." I really just don't know which to use, and one moment it will sound right, another I feel like it's messing it up. I suppose I should just set it to be generic.

Thanks for the help. I can probably survive without anything else for now. I'll eventually pick out a new receiver to go up to 7.1 and get some more surrounds (some M60's I think). I'll see if I can find something used that does 120+ watts per channel and 7.1 with preamp out.

Very best,

Tour2ma

Glad to read the above... A couple last thoughts...

That you like the sparkle that treble boost added, may mean that Yamaha is a good candidate for you. Be careful about boosting bass as that will just begin to take away power conservation gained by going "small". If bottom end is less than satisfying, gradually increase the subs' volume dials.

For times you do want to get a little more aggressive total volume-wise, try moving up the x-over point a bit. Try 90, 100, 110... Somewhere in the 100 - 120 range you'll find that you notice that the bass is coming from the subs. When this happens you've gone too high. With the x-over a bit higher you then may dial up the subs a bit to compensate for any impact loss you notice.

Still never got to calibration... Here's an old thread worth a read.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?8604-crossover-frequencies
There's also one somewhere detailing the calibrating of twin subs... I'll post it if I can find it. If you have any cal questions, just post them here.

If you want input when you do decide to nab your next AVR, a new thread with the specific makes and models in your sights and folks will take you from there...

Happy Holidays...

MalVeauX

Heya,

Thanks for the info; will pilfer through it.

Everything sounds great. At this point, I'm just looking to see about going 7.1 so might as well get more watts into the speakers at the same time. Will start looking at new AVR's.

Thanks for all the help.

Very best,