jl 500/1 and mm100

paul mx3 · September 2003

will a jl 500/1 be ok for 1 mm100.....the specs say it has max rms of 400...ive heard the 500/1 puts out approx 605 watts....will this be too much for the mm100...

Jstas · September 2003

Is the 605 watts peak power or RMS? I know a few people have over-powered the MOMO subs with success. But 605 watts may be too much.

paul mx3 · September 2003

ive heard the 605 is rms....it should be 500 but jl underestimate there power.....if i use this do you think i should just be carefull with the volume...or i have just bought an alpine pxa h700 media manager....i might be able to tone it down to the sub with that....ive not read all the specs on it yet......have you had much experience with the h700.

Jstas · September 2003

If you already have it, go for it. You can keep the gain turned down a bit. That should keep it from eating the speaker up. But really, feeding a speaker too much power is OK as long as the power is clean power. That JL amp is fairly clean and should be able to power your Polk without issue. You aren't going to want to turn the volume up all the way because then you will just tear the sub apart. Then again, at 600 watts, you won't have to turn the sub all the way to get the amount of boom that you are most likely looking for. I wouldn't worry about it, just use your head when you are setting it up and watch the performance. If the sub starts to sound like it is going south, it's too much power. Then you may want to consider a different amp. If that turns out to be the case, that JL would be pretty easy to unload for pretty close to what you paid for it.

paul mx3 · September 2003

they are expensive over here in the uk....the 500/1 retails at about £600 probably about 8 to $900....i got it for £300:D .....still expensive compared to what you get them for in the states though.

PoweredByDodge · October 2003

JL didn't under or overestimate anything.

the 500/1 is a regulated OUPUT amplifier. it will not - willll nooottt - unless the world comes to an end - put out more than 490 to 510 watts rms at any load (within the 1 ohm to 6 ohm range).

below 1 ohm or over 6 it gets screwy according to JL literature. but that's only because its designed for a 1.5 to 3 ohm load.

whoever told you 605 is a funny guy. if a regulated amp put out 600 watts when it was sheeted at 500 watts the customers would probably throw a holy fit. when u buy an regulated amp that's listed as XYZ power, you damn well want it to be that.

if it only had a regulated power supply then you could say "well it does 500 watts at 12.5 volts / 13 volts / and 14.4 volts all the same" which is all fine and well... but the regulated output also slams it into 500 watts at 1 ohm, 2 ohms, and 4 ohms. give or take a small error, its not doing more than that.

if the 500/1 was doing 20% over sheet, they'd have called it the 600/1

paul mx3 · October 2003

http://www.talkaudio.co.uk/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47091&highlight=500%2F1

heres a link this might interest you.....

Systems · October 2003

you should also tell PoweredByDodge that Geoff Dutch the poster of those figures is the 'Director of Communications' at 'BBG'.
BBG are the UK importer and distributor of JL.
And that info COMES from JL themselves....

He is a Funny guy.... a Funny Guy that knows his stuff.

Jstas · October 2003

Oh great, here we go.

sntnsupermen131 · October 2003

if he knew his stuff he wouldnt be working for JL
-Cody

MTXMAN · October 2003

I second that Cody

C-Man · October 2003

LOL am I the only person who ever disagrees that JL is crap?
I wouldn't own it, don't get me wrong, I think it is way overpriced.
I've actually seen reviews of the 500/1 and it did put out a little over 600 watts burst power... but the rms like pbd said in everyday driving conditions was something like 508. I believe this was an old Carsound review so I know it was accurate, but Paul, in your car you won't get a whole lot over 500 watts from that amp.
Now I gotta clarify. If the JL amps weren't so damn expensive I'd get one. They're decent if they were about $200 cheaper. The only subs/speakers I like from them are the W0. I've said this before, I think they're good starter subs and they're the only reasonably priced equipment JL sells. If I had my small truck back I'd put my JL 10's back in there and run them off about a 400 watt amp. Sounded great before.
That is all.:)

sntnsupermen131 · October 2003

well my definition of good is the product needs to "agree" with the price
bose is good to by your definition...theyre way overpriced too
hell, if sony sold some of their $300 amps for $100 i might even consider them good if you take price into consideration
-Cody

paul mx3 · October 2003

you sure youd by a sony amp......:rolleyes:

C-Man · October 2003

Yes you do take into consideration the cost of something. That's exactly why I said I wouldn't buy most of their stuff. My point is just that if someone out there had the money and wanted to spend it on a JL amp for some reason, they aren't gonna get a pile of crap. Sony is a pile of crap. JL is a good brand but overpriced.
I don't wanna start any argument with anyone or anything so we don't need to go any further than this. It's just an opinion thing.

PoweredByDodge · October 2003

this is the part of the thread i find most important -->

_________________________
For the purpose of the comparison the load is irrelevant.

However this thread is to try and help people to set their amplifiers "safely" in a speaker friendly manner ...... the main thing is regardless of brand.

Im working on a more precise experiment to show how much effect the power supply voltage has over the output power.

There are SOOOOOOO many people saying "yeah, man -meez got a 1000wrms amp into Xload, innit", thing is they don't understand that 1000wrms is on a "good day" not real world performance.

What would be would really cool is ask people to post the power supply voltage readings at their amp terminals as follows :

1) Engine off / System off
2) Engine on / System off
3) Engine on / System on (normal listening volume)
4) Engine off / System on (normal listening volume)

Then we can look at "real world" performance.
_____________________

i'm sure with sine waves the 500/1 can do well over its rated output.

however, that is not "true" rms power over the full subwoofer bandwith range (ie - 20 to say 100 - 150 hertz) -- neglecting talking about the entire frequency spectrum as we are stipulating already that it is a sub amp - only to be used on subs.

cuz you know i can sit here and say "well if i put a 1khz wave into it, i get ZERO watts of output power (assuming you remove the output crossover circuitry and are being limited by the clocking of the class D design to under that 200-ish hertz glass ceiling)."

... but that's a bunch of **** -- just like a whole lot over 500 outa the 500/1 under normal conditions is.

in addition, the way the gain adjustment is set up, having the output be more than a smidge above its sheet rating would be "not so kosher" if you were running a 500 watt rms sub that wasn't too happy with anything above its rms.

sntnsupermen131 · October 2003

not trying to start an argument either:)
just saying that IMO, for something to be crap, you take price and product into consideration, not just product
why buy JL when you can get better stuff for cheaper
but i understand what your getting at c-man:D
-Cody

C-Man · October 2003

Yeah, I'm not about to argue with any of the people who've helped me about a hundred times... that just doesn't seem like the smart thing to do. lol

sntnsupermen131 · October 2003

agreed
-Cody

Rotarydude · October 2003

Okay I just have jump in here. I am here on the Polk forum because of my home stuff...but seeing that JL is being talked about...I must add my comment.

I run 2x500/1 to 2x10" W7. 500watt to each. I have to admit that it is definately a great setup. I have witness SPL up to 142db in my car.

Actually if you were to compare higher end stuff ie Zapco, McIntosh, Brax, etc... JL isn't that expensive. It's just want you have in your budget. Plus it comes down to what you looking for. You can get US AMP that has a .80$/watt(or cheaper in some cases), but what type of electronics you are getting?

Plus I just love the way the JL amps handle loads. 1.5-4ohms is within the rate power regardless of voltage, RMS. Not many amps you can say the same.

If any is interested, here is my car.

C-Man · October 2003

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I run a Zapco 750 on a single Orion H2 15 and my car hit 147.5 in my Db Drag. So basically I'm running a little less power than you, less subs, spent a shitload less money, and still hit harder. That's my main problem with JL. Like I've said, I'm usually the first to stick up for JL Audio on these boards, but there is eqaul or better equipment out there for a much cheaper cost.

By the way, my amp puts out the same amout of power as your two 500/1's combined...(actually about 60 watts less...940 rms@4 ohms) and I'm willing to bet that unless you work in a shop and got a great discount or bought online, I paid less than you did for one of those amps. Oh yeah, and the specs on my Zapco will put any JL amp to shame.

Nice car though.;)

Rotarydude · October 2003

Thanks for the comment.

However it depends on the setup, and how the box are tuned and what you are trying to accomplish. W7 are not db SPL speakers. Nor are they SQ. But somewhere in-between. I have my car setup towards the SQ, so booming isn't exactly what I intend it for. My box is sealed, you are probably running a ported box which can dip way down.

I wouldn't say you have a less sub. Because of the 15, they are able to play lower freq, which makes higher SPL. 10s are more in the upper 80hz freq.

If you mean the total surface area of the combine 10" = 20" being a better sub...But still it wouldn't be able to play down low as a single 15". The 10" will make the upper freqs, but with the added second 10" it only brings +6db to the overal respond range.

Specs, IMO it's just bunch of blah-blah and yadi yadas. There isn't a "standard" way to look at them, so every manufacture claim something.

I'm not dissing your setup anyway. I personally have used Zapco(along time ago, back in the early 90s). Nor am I saying JL is equal to Zapco by any means. I don't know how much they retail in stores, since I didn't get mine retail, however from what I see, they are about $1/watt. I could be wrong.

In anycase, I have them. I probably will keep them. Will I change them? Probably not, I haven't had any problem, and they have worked as advertise. Will I buy them again? That depends.

C-Man · October 2003

Wow... you're a very civil person... lol
I just reread my post and realized it looked like I was trying to be an ****, which I wasn't. Just didn't proofread like usual. I have to apologize for that.
Like I've said before, I've owned JL and liked what I had. Same question I ask myself... would I buy again? My answer would have to be the only way I would is if I worked for a dealer and got a great discount.
I will say this though, I have a friend who's running one of those amps on two Alpine Type-R 12s in a '97 Camaro, and it does sound great. Those are some power hungry subs and I honestly have no idea how his system hits so hard on just 250 per.

I've got my system geared toward SQL... more SPL, but judging from most of the other 15" subs I probably wouldn't be going our on a limb by saying that it is the best I've heard musically, even in the ported enclosure. Anywho, it's late and I'm tired... last thing I'm gonna say is I hope these guys unsubscribed from this thread a while ago or they are liable to tear us both a new one.

sntnsupermen131 · October 2003

im not a big fan of JL...i think their subs arent made very well and their amps have regulated outputs...thats ok but not for me
thats just my opinion
i rest my case on the fact that you can get better stuff for cheaper
-Cody

Jstas · October 2003

Originally posted by C-Man
... last thing I'm gonna say is I hope these guys unsubscribed from this thread a while ago or they are liable to tear us both a new one.

Why? Because you like JL? I know many people who like JL and even Bose. That's fine, like what you want. I do have issue with this thread. There is a good deal of mis-information in this thread that I really don't have time to correct right now but I will post about it later.

C-Man · October 2003

Cody, I agreed with you the whole time on that one.

Jstas now you got me interested.

Jstas · October 2003

It isn't about your post at all. Just a few glaring things that I just can't let slip by.

"However it depends on the setup, and how the box are tuned and what you are trying to accomplish. W7 are not db SPL speakers. Nor are they SQ. But somewhere in-between. I have my car setup towards the SQ, so booming isn't exactly what I intend it for. My box is sealed, you are probably running a ported box which can dip way down."

I'm not quite sure what the frame of reference is here or what "way down" means exactly but it isn't true. Maybe for home audio where space is readily available for a port box's sound to expand but not true at all in a car. By far, a sealed box, unless the ported box is tuned for it, will dip much lower in frequency than any other enclosure. For a ported box to reach lower than a sealed box, you would need a great deal of space for not only chamber size but also port length. Both factors determine how low a subwoofer will play long before the fact that it is ported or not will.

In a home theater, something like a ported sono-tube will dig really deep. But look at the environment it operates in. It has a steady, solid power source so there is no need for worry about power levels. A regulated power supply can be more robust because its power source is virtually constant. Not like a car. The listening area will have much more room than a car. That allows for low frequencies to expand properly. A home also does not color music the same way as a car. Gievn all that, a ported box in a car cannot typically be made large enough without modifcations to the car to give more low end extension than a sealed enclosure. The whole idea behind a ported box is harmonics. It is a more efficient enclosure than a sealed enclosure but it needs a large expanse to let the soud waves reach distances and levels that hamonics can be exploited to make the speaker sound like it is performing better than it is physically capable of doing. Those same3 harmonics can be exploited to limit a speaker's effective playing range, hence a bandpass enclosure. Harmonics can compliment each other or cancel each other out. In an automotive environment, there is typically not enough room for harmonics to play well enough together to dip down into the lower reaches of the frequency range. In all cases that is not true. There are exceptions but that is exactly that, exceptions. Most people have applications that are likely the rule rather than the exception.

I wouldn't say you have a less sub. Because of the 15, they are able to play lower freq, which makes higher SPL. 10s are more in the upper 80hz freq.

This is totally untrue. A 15 inch automotive sub is heavy. Hell, any 15 inch sub is heavy. While common sense and physics says a larger sub should play lower and louder, things like cone weight, cone excursion, voice coil weight and even magnet size say otherwise. A huge sub may be able to reach a lower frequency but if that sub is not constructed light enough to move accuratly to create those lower frequencies, it is just not happening. It will get muddied and inconsistient which is why most 15 inch or larger subs sound like total crap. Again, it works well in a home environment because, it is a different environment.

The major benefit to a 15 inch sub is, in most cases, power handling. A large sub can typically take more power than a smaller sub. But alarger sub is harder to control. It;s apower to weight ratio thing. Think of a pair of cars drag racing. One is a 1976 Cadillac Eldorado with a 500 cubic inch 300 horsepower V8. It's fast, right? Well, yeah, especially since it has about 500 pound feet of torque. Doesn't handle too well though, kinda like a pig on rollerskates to be exact. But wait, what's that in the other lane? A 74 Vega with that same motor? Geez, that Caddy don't look so fast anymore! I'll bet that Vega is way easier to control too! Why? a 2000-2500 pound weight difference with the same power level.

Common sense and basic physics tell us that Caddy (15 inch sub) is a power house but reality shows us that physics is a sneaky **** and that Vega (10 or 12 inch sub) is going to be way better and getting down that track faster than that Caddy, even if the Caddy was having a good day.

If you mean the total surface area of the combine 10" = 20" being a better sub...But still it wouldn't be able to play down low as a single 15". The 10" will make the upper freqs, but with the added second 10" it only brings +6db to the overal respond range.

Now I used to think that was true too. Then I decided to sit down and figure out the math. It's complicated because dust covers and surrounds play a part in it too. But take a 15 inch sub and put it next to two 10 inch subs. Look at how much taller that 15 inch cone is. Look at how steep the sides of the cone are compared to the 10 inch sub. Granted this may different for other subs but, the above statement about conical surface area is only good for a very vague ballpark figure. If you take the total surface area of that 15 inch sub, including the dust cover cause that does move air too) and add it all up, you'll be quite surprised at the number you get. Especially if you take a pair of 10's and add up thier area. Depending on how deep the cones are, that 15 inch sub can have more surface area than the two 10's combined. More surface area means more air that gets contacted. More contacted air, more moving air. Move more air, you can play louder, not necessarily lower though. If that 15 inch sub moves as little as 2% more air than the two 10's, it'll mean the difference between a win or a loss at a DB DRAG event. Then again, if that 15 inch sub has the same degree of angle for the cone as the two 10 inch subs, those 10's are going to bring at least twice as much volume as the 15 at the same power level. The benefit to the 10's is the fact that they are more compact and have and cause less of a strain on the over all system. They merely distribut work loads to achieve a greater response.

Specs, IMO it's just bunch of blah-blah and yadi yadas. There isn't a "standard" way to look at them, so every manufacture claim something.

On the contrary, the specs do mean a great deal. There isn't a "standard way to look at them", no. But what there is you may not see. Those standards are governed by physics. You can't deny physics. So, looking at a "white sheet" that most companies put in with thier promo material, doesn't tell you jack squat. You have to look at the conditions that those "specs" were achieved in and be able to understand those conditions and the measurments taken to arrive at those specs. To the common joe, they mean absolutly nothing and are just a bunch of numbers for all those "geeks and nerds". They all mean something and just because you don't understand what they mean doesn't mean you should poo-poo something. It really bugs the hell out of me when people poo-poo specs and say they don't mean much because they do. If you read them correctly, you can actually get a good idea of how a speaker will sound without actually listening to it. It is by no means the sole determining factor and doesn't have to be a factor in purchasing equipment at all. If you know about specs, they will most likely be a huge factor in your decision making process. If you don't know about specs, they may not be a factor at all. That is fine, you should be listening to what your ears tell you anyway, not hype.

That is the rub though. Hype from companies like Bose and JL is what sells thier equipment. JL puts out some nice equipment. Thier amps are worthy candidates for consideration for any stereo. Thier subs are not bad either. Are they the best? Far, far from it. Can cheaper be found? Oh hell yes. So what's the deal? JL is not worth thier price tag in most cases. It's hype. It's all hype, just like Bose. Very few companies that have that kind of hype can actually back it up. Alpine is one of those few companies. There are quite a few companies that goods deserving of that hype but no one knows about them. The bottomline to all the JL/Bose bashing is that hype sells speakers but physics is the truth. You can't hide from physics.

My comments were not directed directly at Rotarydude at all. They were not directed at anyone in particular. I just read the posts and saw some common pitfalls that people take and just inaccurate information that I wanted to correct for the good of everyone. I only used Rotarydude's post because they were good examples.

I don't think anyone really bashes JL equipment for the equipment. I think they bash JL equipment because of the hype that is behind it. Since there isn't really a face to put with the name, there is no outlet for the frustration and overpricing that is driving the hype so it gets put on the equipment. No, not all JL Audio equipment is junk. A good portion of it is far from junk. The problem is, some JL Audio stuff is not fit to prop up my coffee table and the prices do not reflect it nor does the hype. While it is kind of silly to hold such disdain for the company, it is not the company's fault. The aggravation stems from those kids (you ahev all seen or heard them) that spout from the mouth without anything to say really except to bow down to thier JL Audio shrines. Add that to the typical "brand ****" that you see everywhere on the internet and you can see the source of frustration. Add to that that those "kids" rarely have any clue what they are talking about will willfully tell you to ditch your Polk Audio or Image Dynamics or Hifonics or Soundstream or whatever and go with "real stuff" just because they never heard of your equipment before. Hell, you might as well just forget the European companies or Japanese companies with component sets that cost as much as thier cars.

Jstas · October 2003

But anyway, I probably pissed everyone off by now and I'm sure that there are going to be more than a few people who will flame me because they misunderstood a statement from me. Rather than ask me to clarify, they'll just bash me or get offended and get all pissy. So take it for what you will. Nothing but good intentions here.

PoweredByDodge · October 2003

Originally posted by Rotarydude

Plus I just love the way the JL amps handle loads. 1.5-4ohms is within the rate power regardless of voltage, RMS. Not many amps you can say the same.
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the JL amps handle loads no better than any other amp... its all concept.

an amp with a regulated power supply will react the same to a 10 volt (give or take half a volt) power input as it would with a 16 volt power input (give or take a little).

why is this?

not because its any super amp, but because there are voltage regulators in teh power supply. the minimum level (say 10 volts) is set by the type of voltage regulator you use... if you use a 9 volt regulator, then 9 is the limit... a 10, then 10... an 11, then its 11... you get the point.

the top end (14 or 15 or 16 volts or whatever) is determined by the quality of the electronic parts... if that 10 volt voltage regulator can only downstep up to 12 volts, then your amp will be "regulated" from 10 to 12 volts... after 12 it'll fry, break down, or otherwise turn to ****.

in the case of most of these car audio amps, they've got 16 to 18 volt tolerant - 10 volt voltage regulators... which leaves us with a "band" of 10 to 16 or 18 volts... however, since mr. car's alternator only pumps out roughly 14, the manufacturer can then turn around and say "well, our band is 10 to 14 volts" when in reality you could probably jump 16 or 18 volts into there and not have a problem... then again, keep in mind you never want to push electronics to their absolute limits... if its a 16 volt part... 14 is probably high enough... 18 volt part....16... again, you get the idea.

now that clears up why the amp performs the same on 10 volts or 14 volts... because its being run off 10 volts all the time. its not the amp that's adjusting to the voltage change, its the power supply -- ALWAYS giving only 10 or 10.5 or whatever volts to the amplifier. NOTE: if your battery dropped to 9 volts with a 10 volt voltage regulator, the amp would only get 9 volts... V-regs act only as limiters.

So what about output stages? why can we get the same output with a 1.5 ohm up to a 4 ohm load?

same deal as the power supply - voltage regulators. only a little difft, but same concept.

at 1.5 ohms -- ah **** lets say 1 ohm so i can do easy numbers... i know the JL is 1.5 ohms to 4 ohms or whatever, but lets say it was 1 ohm to 4 ohms, just so i dont have to get a damn calculator out.

at 1 ohm, to get 500 watts, we need 22 amps.
at 2 ohms to get 500 watts, we need 16 amps.
at 4 ohms to get 500 watts we only need 11 amps of current.

now what governs this current flow? -- a voltage regulator. current must be pulled through a device, not pushed, however we can "fake" push it by setting up a voltage regulator such that the device demands a certain voltage drop across it... the difference is this is not a static voltage regulator, its an active one... which can be dialed by the user. the gain is setup such that, when being set, the user is supposed to wire an oscilloscope up to the speaker outputs - BEFORE CONNECTING ANY SPEAKERS - dump a sine wave through the amp, and set the gain so that you get a specific voltage at the terminals.

in teh case of the 500/1 with a 3 ohm load -- this voltage is abotu 38 volts... ... radical(500 divided by 3) * 3 = about 38 volts.

(and you can quote the JL audio W7 user manual on that one.)

so we see by setting the gain to be an active voltage regulator we allow only that voltage to be dropped across the load of the speaker.

without teh regulated power supply, this regulated output setup would not be possible.

therefore, i'll conclude this whole tirade with a simple statement.

--- there is nothing special about the AMPLIFIER of the JL 500/1's or the 1000/1's ... rather, it is their "finishing touches" and add on's that make them appealing for these cherished traits of regulation.

any company can make any amp regulated if they wanted to, but it removes the ability to drive that amp to its limits.

the true limits of the JL 500/1 and 1000/1 will never be known until somebody guts the regulation portions of those amps and bypasses properly so that the amp is running off true vehicle power and putting out as much juice as it possibly can.

however most of hte rest of the car audio world allows you to drive your amps as hard as you want.

so do i think JL is anything great for having regulation? -- No.

... It's just more **** to break down.

and as far as the electronics of USamps, they use some of the most reliable semiconductors you can buy. and any amp that's made by hand is an amp that's taken pride in... or else they wouldn't bother spending the gobs of money more it costs them to have a technician build them rather than an assembly line in Taiwan.

Besides you can call USamps and say "dude, i blew transistor number such and such, i need to fix it, whatta i do?" and they'll 1) know what you're talkin about 2) help you. Try that with JL... "um.... what's a transistor... dude send it in, we'll only charge you 587 dollars to send it to our out of house repair shop in mexico to fix it"

Jstas · October 2003

HA HA! My post was longer than yours Vinnie! Mine took up two posts actually!

Rotarydude · October 2003

I just like to go on the record that I truly don't believe in amp specs. Damping factors, THD, Sensitivity level, etc...every manufacture come up with a number with different technics. To me these specs are useless to compare amps by different manufacture.

However I do believe in speaker specs using Theil-Small.

jl 500/1 and mm100

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