Bi-wiring/Bi-amping explained
Comments
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I don't understand your question. You will need a xover. I think you must have misread my post.anhchungdoan wrote: »Please enlighten me about bi-amping. If my pre-amp has only one set of pre-out and I want to use one amp to drive my woofer and another amp to driver my electrostat panel, what is your configuration without an external active cross-over?-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
I don't understand your question. You will need a xover. I think you must have misread my post.
I am sorry that I misread your reply to my post.
It can be done without the external cross-over as in case with B &W tech recommended due to their internal cross-over but if it is a case, it 's not a-true bi-amping.
I will recommend a follow-up reading for polk posters who has issues with bi-amping. Please google SOUND.WESTHOST.COM/BIAMP.HTM for more details. Bi-amping is not a simple tweak. Life is a learning process as I am continuing learning everyday. I hope that reading will help to clear up some confusion. -
I may need VC69 help on another issue that I would like some polk posters be aware of, especially the ones who want to tweak their gear.
Besides the hype about the bi-amping from some of the AVR maufactures, please be careful with the XLR hypes from some of the high-price AVR and mid-end pre/amp manufactures.
Their selling point is " we have XLR output ( pre) and XLR input (amp) to lure in some less-informed customer to buy their the hi-price products. Most of these XLR connections are just HYPE. Yes, they look impresssive but these XLR are not true balance output/input at all. They are simply single-ended connections with a XLR adaptor. You will not be benefit at all with these type of balanced connections.
Look at some XLR inout/ouput from Adcom, Rotel, Parasound, Emotiva....products , they are there for nothing but cheap gadgets. Call them up and ask them if their products have true balanced input/ output or not. If they say they are, then simply ask them what is their pins configuration, if they do not have a clear answer then you know the answer.
I know this is not the same topic but it could be a side benefit to some new comers to the audio world. Welcome to the HYPE and buyers beware.
Now I finish my rant.
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That site definitely covers all of the commonly misunderstood concepts of both bi-wiring and bi-amping.
Good linkage!
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#common-question-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
On the opposite, you should feel good about this, we seen the question coming back over and over and I wished people would actually done this through this discussion (which has many good leads to understand the process) instead of starting the process all over and this with so many wrong pointers.Seeing a post from yourself 6 years ago, is like the first time you heard your voice on a cassette recorder
you sound like a dork...
LOL
Now, we have to realize there is 2 differents reasons for bi-amping and it seems people confuse the 2;
1. When people speak of improved SQ, power gain isn't necessary the goal and should be used differently in the discussion. Improving the SQ through bi-amping is oriented toward isolating the High and Mid bi means of seperate channels and this should be the true goal for bi-amping.
2. The use of bi-amping through seperate amps with the goal in mind to gain power is achievable but the ideal unless you intend to achieve both power gain and High/Mid isolation otherwise it is preferable to simply use seperate amp with High/Mid jumpered.
3. Then you can talk about benefit of bi-amping through an AVR... The gain would be simple isolation of High/Mid but forget about any power gain improvement and if you do talk about SQ, don't talk power gain!
Looks like most realize the concept of buying AVRs with pre-outs and using seperate amps to achieve either/or/both gain and isolation. Part of the reasonning is also that while using seperate amps what ever power which isn't used from that AVR is the freed for the other channels that are actually hooked-up to the AVR.
Last but NOT the least, when one is talking about power gain, he/she must realize that in order to gain 3db, power must be doubled therefore, the same retoric question about extra power "Should I hear any difference or gain power" by using my AVR to provide extra power to my speakers should be answered once for all. If you want to hear substantial gain power coming out of your speaker, your external amp should provide at least twice as much juice than the original one. Improved SQ does not mean power gain either.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life
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Effectively you should start a different thread with this topic as your comments may divert this discussion totally out of wack. I will not comment any further in order to keep this discussion on track but would love you to start a different discussion with this because I think you might have some mis-conception about the manufacturers/suppliers in thinking they would provide phony technology.anhchungdoan wrote: »I may need VC69 help on another issue that I would like some polk posters be aware of, especially the ones who want to tweak their gear.
Besides the hype about the bi-amping from some of the AVR maufactures, please be careful with the XLR hypes from some of the high-price AVR and mid-end pre/amp manufactures.
Their selling point is " we have XLR output ( pre) and XLR input (amp) to lure in some less-informed customer to buy their the hi-price products. Most of these XLR connections are just HYPE. Yes, they look impresssive but these XLR are not true balance output/input at all. They are simply single-ended connections with a XLR adaptor. You will not be benefit at all with these type of balanced connections.
Look at some XLR inout/ouput from Adcom, Rotel, Parasound, Emotiva....products , they are there for nothing but cheap gadgets. Call them up and ask them if their products have true balanced input/ output or not. If they say they are, then simply ask them what is their pins configuration, if they do not have a clear answer then you know the answer.
I know this is not the same topic but it could be a side benefit to some new comers to the audio world. Welcome to the HYPE and buyers beware.
Now I finish my rant.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Effectively you should start a different thread with this topic as your comments may divert this discussion totally out of wack. I will not comment any further in order to keep this discussion on track but would love you to start a different discussion with this because I think you might have some mis-conception about the manufacturers/suppliers in thinking they would provide phony technology.
Cheers!
TK
+1
Start another thread.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
On the opposite, you should feel good about this, we seen the question coming back over and over and I wished people would actually done this through this discussion (which has many good leads to understand the process) instead of starting the process all over and this with so many wrong pointers.
Now, we have to realize there is 2 differents reasons for bi-amping and it seems people confuse the 2;
1. When people speak of improved SQ, power gain isn't necessary the goal and should be used differently in the discussion. Improving the SQ through bi-amping is oriented toward isolating the High and Mid bi means of seperate channels and this should be the true goal for bi-amping.
2. The use of bi-amping through seperate amps with the goal in mind to gain power is achievable but the ideal unless you intend to achieve both power gain and High/Mid isolation otherwise it is preferable to simply use seperate amp with High/Mid jumpered.
3. Then you can talk about benefit of bi-amping through an AVR... The gain would be simple isolation of High/Mid but forget about any power gain improvement and if you do talk about SQ, don't talk power gain!
Looks like most realize the concept of buying AVRs with pre-outs and using seperate amps to achieve either/or/both gain and isolation. Part of the reasonning is also that while using seperate amps what ever power which isn't used from that AVR is the freed for the other channels that are actually hooked-up to the AVR.
Last but NOT the least, when one is talking about power gain, he/she must realize that in order to gain 3db, power must be doubled therefore, the same retoric question about extra power "Should I hear any difference or gain power" by using my AVR to provide extra power to my speakers should be answered once for all. If you want to hear substantial gain power coming out of your speaker, your external amp should provide at least twice as much juice than the original one. Improved SQ does not mean power gain either.
Cheers!
TK
Theorically, To gain 3db the power must be double. It 's a simple fact but I aslo like to add that for human ears to really feel the impact of the difference in SPL, it will take some where between 5/10 db. I forgot the name of the study so take it with a grain of salt if you will.
Bi-amping is a nice approach, let say I want my electrostat panel sound like tube but I want tight bass for my woofer. So, tube amp for the Hi and SS amp for the low. That's when tube meets SS and I gain the benefit of both by bi-amping my speakers.
As you say, to gain more power just to buy another external multi-channel amps but the pre-samp section remains the same. If the pre-amp section is "suck" then the amplification part just amplify the" suckness". I agree with you. -
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IIRC 1 db gain requires double the output power. 3 db increase = noticeable increase in volume.
Am I confused?-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
IIRC 1 db gain requires double the output power. 3 db increase = noticeable increase in volume.
Am I confused?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculatorVoltagePower.htm use this calculator and you will notice that every time you double your power the db increases by 3 every time.Find decibel power gain by entering before and after power:
Not used in sound engineering.
You probably confuse it with the volt:
which doubles when you add an extra volt at the output IE: 1 volt in w/2 volts out = 6db but if you increase the same o/p you will notice that while your o/p power is dubled, your db increase is 3 dbs every additional volts at the o/p.Find decibel voltage gain by entering input and output voltage:
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Ok. But I seem to remember this formula. Somebody please chime in as I am getting old and may be wrong here.
Say speaker efficiency is 89db (@1 watt @1 meter)
90 db requires 2 watts
91 db requires 4 watts
92 db requires 8 watts
93 db requires 16 watts
and so forth.
Generally speaking a 3 db gain (in output) is required to "hear" a noticeable increase in volume.
This has certainly strayed off topic. But I wanted to get a consensus.
-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
Here it is. I found the old study. Valid or invalid, it's your call.
1. Imperceptible change : 1db increase
2.Barely perceptible change: 3db increase.
3.Clearly noticeable change: 5db increase.
4.About twice as loud : 10db increase.
5.About 4 times as loud: 20db increase.
*Statistic for the Decible comparison chart were taken from a study by Marshall Chasin M.Sc, Aud(c), FAAA, Centre for Human Performance and Health, Ontario, Canada.
You all have a nice week-end. -
anhchungdoan wrote: »*Statistic for the Decible comparison chart were taken from a study by Marshall Chasin M.Sc, Aud(c), FAAA, Centre for Human Performance and Health, Ontario, Canada.
A Canadian? What the heck do Canadian's know about audio
I mean; we all live in IGLOOs and travel by dogsled? Media Room 7.1
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Need some cable's? Just ask
-
sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »A Canadian? What the heck do Canadian's know about audio I mean; we all live in IGLOOs and travel by dogsled?
Hey, take it easy on the Canadian! My beautiful lady and my "the one and the only" female pianist and jazz singer, Diana Krall is from where you already know. -
We Canadians don't know dip $h1t about audio thus the reason for coming out here, right?sTiLlLeArNiNg wrote: »A Canadian? What the heck do Canadian's know about audio I mean; we all live in IGLOOs and travel by dogsled? DARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
Please correct me as I am not an electrical engineer or electrician, but when researching bi-wiring and looking at the electrical diagram, it appears that all bi-wiring does is move the effective jumper from the speakers to the amplifier.
What I think I see is in non-bi-wired the circuit is amplifier terminal to speaker terminal A to Speaker Terminal B and in bi-wired the circuit is speaker terminal A to amplifier terminal to Speaker Terminal B. -
We Canadians don't know dip $h1t about audio thus the reason for coming out here, right?
Hey! take it easy. Now you guys spoil my week-end. Iggloo and dogsleds? Another attempted shot at another pretty woman from Alaska. I know what you guys are doing. I do not care if she sees Russia from her house, I like pretty woman.
Diana Krall, Jazz singer ( Canadian) & Sarah Palin ( Alaskan) = 2 beautiful components. -
You are right, with jumper = split occurs at the speaker while bi-wiring (jumper removed) = split occur at the amplifier not much difference unless you are using extreme lenghts of cable. I can not comment on the remainder of your post as I do not really understand your A/B talk (I guess not seeing the block diagram you are talking about...).Please correct me as I am not an electrical engineer or electrician, but when researching bi-wiring and looking at the electrical diagram, it appears that all bi-wiring does is move the effective jumper from the speakers to the amplifier.
What I think I see is in non-bi-wired the circuit is amplifier terminal to speaker terminal A to Speaker Terminal B and in bi-wired the circuit is speaker terminal A to amplifier terminal to Speaker Terminal B.
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
FYI, I just recently did a bunch of trials with my set up (see my review of the Tsi500 demos in the "Speaker" section). I originaly had my Rti8's biwired because I was convinced there was an improvement in the sound. After reading a couple of threads about how the little metal jumper bars can be a crappy way to connect the speaker terminals, I tested using single wire with wire jumpers instead....and got what I percieve as the same improved sound. Even went back to the single wire and metal jumpers to compare and got what I percieve as less quality sound. I'm still a newbie and figuring all this out, but could the percieved sound improvement that people say they get from biwiring really be just the improvement of two wires feeding the speaker terminals vs. using a crappy jumper plates??? Just a thought......Parasound HCA-2003A & 2205A
Front: Rti12's
Center: Csi A6
Side surrounds: Polk Rti A1's
Atmos: Mirage Nanosats
APC H15
Power cords by Pepster, Morrow MA4 IC's, AQ Midnight, AQ Chocolate HDMI's[/SIZE]
The rest is TBD. -
Valid point as crappy/good connections goes a long way, maybe this what you actually experienced.FYI, I just recently did a bunch of trials with my set up (see my review of the Tsi500 demos in the "Speaker" section). I originaly had my Rti8's biwired because I was convinced there was an improvement in the sound. After reading a couple of threads about how the little metal jumper bars can be a crappy way to connect the speaker terminals, I tested using single wire with wire jumpers instead....and got what I percieve as the same improved sound. Even went back to the single wire and metal jumpers to compare and got what I percieve as less quality sound. I'm still a newbie and figuring all this out, but could the percieved sound improvement that people say they get from biwiring really be just the improvement of two wires feeding the speaker terminals vs. using a crappy jumper plates??? Just a thought......
Cheers!
TKDARE TO SOAR:
Your attitude, almost always determine your altitude in life -
I can not comment on the remainder of your post as I do not really understand your A/B talk (I guess not seeing the block diagram you are talking about...).
Cheers!
TK
You got it - I guess the example wasn't needed anyway. -
FYI, I just recently did a bunch of trials with my set up (see my review of the Tsi500 demos in the "Speaker" section). I originaly had my Rti8's biwired because I was convinced there was an improvement in the sound. After reading a couple of threads about how the little metal jumper bars can be a crappy way to connect the speaker terminals, I tested using single wire with wire jumpers instead....and got what I percieve as the same improved sound. Even went back to the single wire and metal jumpers to compare and got what I percieve as less quality sound. I'm still a newbie and figuring all this out, but could the percieved sound improvement that people say they get from biwiring really be just the improvement of two wires feeding the speaker terminals vs. using a crappy jumper plates??? Just a thought......
That is my suspicion. I think that doing away with the plate jumpers and using wire is where the most marked improvement can be had.
As for hi-end and rather expensive bi-wire cables, I am still undecided in my setup. I have some, so I use them. But I don't think they are giving me a justifiable return on investment. I think that may change as I move up to an amp that can reveal those subtleties. I am reserving judgment till then.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
No, it would look like this;
89dB - 1 watt
92dB - 2 watts
95dB - 4 watts
98dB - 8 watts
101dB - 16 watts
104dB - 32 watts
107dB - 64 watts
110dB - 132 watts
113dB - 264 watts
116dB - 528 watts
So, for every 3dB increase it takes double the power.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
No, it would look like this;
89dB - 1 watt
92dB - 2 watts
95dB - 4 watts
98dB - 8 watts
101dB - 16 watts
104dB - 32 watts
107dB - 64 watts
110dB - 132 watts
113dB - 264 watts
116dB - 528 watts
So, for every 3dB increase it takes double the power.
Ok, I was confused.:o
Thanks.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
anhchungdoan wrote: »Hey, take it easy on the Canadian! My beautiful lady and my "the one and the only" female pianist and jazz singer, Diana Krall is from where you already know.anhchungdoan wrote: »Hey! take it easy. Now you guys spoil my week-end. Iggloo and dogsleds? Another attempted shot at another pretty woman from Alaska. I know what you guys are doing. I do not care if she sees Russia from her house, I like pretty woman.
Diana Krall, Jazz singer ( Canadian) & Sarah Palin ( Alaskan) = 2 beautiful components.
No worries man! In case you didn't notice TECHNOKID and i are both Canuck's lolWe Canadians don't know dip $h1t about audio thus the reason for coming out here, right?
Yup! I'm sTiLlLeArNiNg Media Room 7.1
Sharp lc37d64u | Sanus vmsab-03 | Sonax ZX8680 | Yamaha htr-6290b | Emotiva xpa1 x 2 & xpa5 | RTiA 9 & 7 | CSiA 6 | FXiA 6 | Sanus NF30B-03 | Velodyne dls-3750r | Dual 505-3 m97xe | Monster avs2000/hts5100
HTPC
Intel e5300 | Asus p5q DLX | LG ch08 BD | OCZ 4g reaper2 | WD 1TB | Sapphire 4890 VaporX 1g | Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 | OCZ modXtreme 700w | Antec Fusion remote MAX
A fool and his money are easily parted
I don't drink Koolaid
Need some cable's? Just ask
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Welcome to Club Polk Steve!
I just can't figure out where i set my 1.2's to large on my Adcom GFP-750!!!! ARGH!!!!! :mad:
IMS, I set all my full range speakers @ small/ 80hz for movies. IMHO, if you have a GOOD sub , it works better that way. If your sub does not go down ,say to 20hz you may want to tried both way and see which way sounds better to your ears. -
Give it a try Sal! I am going to try setting my 1.2tl's to small and crossover at 120 hz. I will let my center handle the low end.
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from the lack of response I figure that must be a bad idea. Guess Ill start bidding on some expensive, 20 year old wiring harnesses on ebay:
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What are you talking about?Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk
