5.1 vs 7.1

dfretwell

Any insight into this debate (or lack thereof???) would be much appreciated. Setup will be used 60% TV, 20% Movies and 20% gaming. Watch mostly sports on TV. Will be running the setup with a Yamaha RX-A2000. Polk PSW1000 sub. Not sure what the 7.1 will add to the equation...

Syndil

It adds a channel directly behind you. I'd say whether or not it would add anything significant to your listening experience would depend on the size of the room and how it is set up. With 5.1, the surrounds should be directly to the sides of the listening position. So if your listening position is already at the back wall of a room, putting another set of speakers directly behind you is not going to add much more depth compared to having the 5.1 surrounds take care of it. However if there is some room behind you to put the rear channels at a distance behind your listening position, then maybe consider it.

dfretwell

It's a pretty large room, so might make sense. Should I be getting the same speakers for the side and rear speakers?

dorokusai

What size room exactly?

Yes, you would typically match the speakers to your mains and center channel.

You're less movie than music so 7.1 is not going to be a big factor here. Most mixes are 5.1 so you'll be artificially adding the conversion. I'd stick with 5.1 as I have and I've never missed anything musically or home theatre wise.

dfretwell

Hi Dorokusai!
25' x 45'. All 45' isn't the TV viewing area, but the speakers can really go back as far as necessary to create depth as they will be in the ceiling.

dorokusai

dfretwell wrote: »

Hi Dorokusai!
25' x 45'. All 45' isn't the TV viewing area, but the speakers can really go back as far as necessary to create depth as they will be in the ceiling.

What's your listening area? 45' is a haul and I'm sure you're not listening as if you live in an alley. Is the area closed or just open? You need to add as much information as possible Dfretwell, since my attention span is like that of a canine. I'm sure others can add more and further augment my comments but please add as much info as possible.

Keep your surround speakers as close to and above your actual listening area as possible in this case.

You should download this and read it tonight:

http://www.polkaudio.com/downloads/hthandbook.pdf

dfretwell

The couch will be essentially the end of the listening area. The back of the couch will be 22' from the wall that the TV will be on. How far behind the couch will the rear speakers go in a 7.1 setup? The back of the listening area is open to the rest of the greatroom. Sorry to hear about your attention span

dorokusai

Move your couch closer, mount your speaker behind you and above the couch. 22' is ridiculous unless your running a 100" screen. Do you have side walls all the way to the end of the couch as it sits now?

Quite honestly I'd go 6.1 and leave it. Get a monster center channel and mount it above and behind your couch if possible, otherwise, on the floor and behind the couch. Polk makes a Wireless Surround speaker that would work great here and you just need an outlet behind the couch.

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/fx/

dfretwell

Fireplace on one side of the couch, Kitchen on the other side. 60" TV, so I will scoot the couch a little closer. What is optimal distance for a 60" TV? No need for a wireless rear speaker as I will run everything in the ceiling.

dorokusai

"The general rule of thumb is to place your TV at a distance of three times the height of your screen (3 x H) away from your sofa."

If you get eye fatigue from that distance, move it further away but its an excellent quick reference.

dfretwell

Seems a little close, but I will give it a try. Thanks!

burts

I was running 7.1 then upgraded to yamaha a2000 and emotiva xpa5, now i redid everything to 5.1 but added 2 presence speakers today. The front stage is so much more fuller, the whole front is a wall of sound. I have only 2 feet behind my couch, im going to add rear channels and do 9.1, overkill, who cares sounds freakin incredible....

dorokusai

Burts - I've also done the presence loudspeaker idea using two SurroundBar50 and it really does create a wall of sound....pretty neat effect. My setup is not at all conventional but it worked.

Dfretwell - You have to have an AVR capable of doing this, so don't start thinking about it unless you have that option. Burts is trying to get you to upgrade, lol.

dfretwell

Presence speakers go where? Outside of the front main speakers?

dorokusai

Stop....get your normal setup squared away before this even enters your mind. It's a totally different idea and application.

dfretwell

HA! Ok. Thanks for the advice.

burts

He does have the same avr that i have, so he can 5.1 with presence or 7.1 with rear surrounds, he must pick rears or presence. I got a external 5ch amp so i can do 9.1 i think, i just wrote a email to polk to find out.

dorokusai

Burts - Ok, cool. I did the 9.1 setup with my Onkyo. I think that based on his room size that he's best served with rear channels instead of a front stage.

Syndil

motabag wrote: »

I have the typical 5.1 surround sound setup - in a 7.1 setup where do you place the 2 additional speakers.

Behind the listening position.

5.1


7.1


Images from http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/speaker-setup-guidelines/home-theater-speaker-layout-an-essential-guide

mufsoman

dfretwell - I had a 7.1 set up with in-ceiling rear speakers. Didn't work too well just because the in-ceiling's pretty much drove the sound straight down and were a non factor. If your in a smaller room where the seating position is close to the back wall, ceiling might work better. In a larger room, I think rears would be much better served by direct firing bookshelf's or larger dipoles. You could check out the OWM5's for an easy ceiling mount of direct firing speakers or bookshelf's on speaker stands. If your only 20% movies, as stated by Doro, the 7.1 isn't going to do much for you. No TV signals in 7.1 or music. I've notice more blurays are in 7.1 or 6.1. My 2 cents....

kuntasensei

I'm running 9.1 using DPL-IIz Height. The rear surrounds are quickly becoming a necessity to properly reproduce theatrical mixes, so I would definitely do 7.1 if you have the room. Contrary to what dorokusai said, most modern mixes are NOT strictly 5.1, even if they're in a 5.1 bitstream. The vast majority of modern mixes since the year after Star Wars: The Phantom Menace were done with Dolby EX in mind, meaning the only proper way to reproduce them is with either one or two rear surrounds. The problem with using a single rear surround is that point sources directly behind the listener can exhibit a psychoacoustic reversal, wherein they sound like they are coming from in front of you even though they are directly behind you. (Note: The suggestion to use a center channel for 6.1 is valid, as the center channel's D'appolito array somewhat minimizes reversal... but it's still preferable to have a 7.1 setup if you can place them correctly.)

Psychoacoustic reversal was a big problem with DD-EX on 6.1 systems in the home, hence the reason 7.1 was initially created for home use. Having two speakers behind you eliminates the possibility of psychoacoustic reversal because the rear surround data is reproduced from two speakers at once. Alternately (and according to Dolby, more preferably), steering methods such as Dolby Pro-Logic IIx not only steer the EX channel's sound to the rear surrounds, they also steer cross-channel sound smoothly between the 4 surrounds for pinpoint placement, with ambient sounds still played out-of-phase in the side surrounds as the mixer intended. This lets the home theater reproduce the same sound as theatrical 6.1, where the listening space is large enough for sound from each channel to propegate, giving better placement. In my opinion, a 7.1 setup is the only way to reproduce 5.1 tracks mixed for EX (which, as I said, is the vast majority of them in recent times). We won't argue this too much, 'cause if you do a search, we've beaten that dead horse to a bloody pulp already... but don't let anyone kid you - there are a TON of 5.1 mixes on Blu-ray that were mixed with rear surrounds in mind, and they are not flagged as EX/ES tracks the way they were on DVD. Those same 5.1 mixes when played back on cable/satellite still contain the matrixed rear surround data, so it's ideal for that as well. Television is typically mixed for 5.1, but as the mixing standards for panning sounds across the side surrounds work with the DPL-IIx steering algorithm to properly place sounds across the surrounds, I have found it very useful. In fact, I leave DPL-IIz Height engaged full time unless I'm playing back an older movie with mono surrounds (because they collapse to the rear).

With the recent trend toward theatrical 7.1, a 7.1 system is at the very least good future-proofing. The Transformers movies are normally powerhouses of sound, but man, the 7.1 mix on the Blu-ray of Dark Of The Moon uses every channel to jaw-dropping effect. With movies like Cars 2, Toy Story 3 and today's release of Super 8 having 7.1 tracks straight from the theatrical mix, it's a good idea if you care about proper reproduction of the intended mix.

tommyt21

5.1 with heights/wides... Its a known physical fact that we hear sounds comming from infront of us better than behind us.

dfretwell

Tommy,
What do you mean by heights/wides? Really good info, Kuntasensei

kuntasensei

tommyt21 wrote: »

5.1 with heights/wides... Its a known physical fact that we hear sounds comming from infront of us better than behind us.

Yeah, according to Audyssey. And to a certain extent, they're correct... and I won't lie, Audyssey DSX does a really good job. However, specifically towards recreating theatrical sound in the home, I would take rear surrounds over heights/wides any day of the week so long as they're well-placed. Having those two extra channels recreates the array effect you get in the theater and is just generally more enveloping. It's also important to note that movies are actually MIXED with those channels in mind, whereas nothing is mixed with heights/wides in mind. These technologies (Audyssey DSX and DPL-IIz Height) work very well with existing mixing standards, but only Dolby's implementation of height actually falls into line with how movies are mixed, because it uses the out-of-phase audio in the side surrounds to judge what should be ambient sound. DSX, however, attempts to use the data from all channels to approximate what a larger listening space would sound like. In that, it does a great job, because DSX Height does give that massive wall-of-speakers effect in the front.

So really, it depends on which you like better. For me, since 7.1 mixes are starting to become the standard, I think rear surrounds should come before height/wide in any system so long as the rear surrounds can be placed at the proper angles and distances (or at least a good compromise can be found, as in my room).

chadam44

Room is big enough to make good use of the extra channels, so I say go for it.

Lietuvis91

burts wrote: »

overkill, who cares sounds freakin incredible....

HAHA! That's how I feel about my dual M60 center channel, lol! I say if you have the money and the time, do whatever your ambitions drive you to do. You can always scale back and sell some stuff off later, if you decide it wasn't worth it. But you will have been there, done that, you can come tell us on how you think it worked out and you will have no regrets or wonder "what if"

soundfreak1

I've done both with seperates and a processor and went back to 5.1 . 7.1 just didn't add anything to the " quality" of the sound just kind of muddied


the detailed of the sound tracks. Like going 4 ch. Stereo vs. 2 ch. Adding the 2 extra speakers dosent make it sound " better" .

Lietuvis91

I guess I should also mention that I'm in the same camp as those who went from 7.1 back down to 5.1 because in my particular room it was hard to setup towers as surrounds and the "improvement" in sound was not woth the extra clutter/wiring.

If I had to do it over again, I would go with m30s or m40s for rears and surrounds in a 7.1 setup, this probably would work better, but I am just speculating at this point.

Non-the-less, now I am very happy with my current 5.1 setup, and don't feel any need to try 7.1 again, in this particular room anyway

burts

Well I added two satellites for my rear surrounds, back wall is 2 feet away fom my couch. Im running 9.1 now and the difference is worth it too me, people say too small room blah lah, BS.

Jurassic park 9.1 is amazing in my small room

Lietuvis91

That doesn't surprie me, I think the speaker used and the placement of the speaker has a lot to do with it. I am pretty certain that I wasn't too impressed with my 7.1 because of setup limitations and the speakers I was using. But if the right equipment, is placed correctly, I'm sure it can sound pretty amazing. Glad you like it!

Would be cool if you could post pics of how and where you setup you speakers.

polkfarmboy

7.1 for gaming is awesome for games and really ads to the experience. When I had my flying drones on killzone I could hear it clearly panning from the front then right beside (sides)me then moving into the rears and fading away into the background .....awesome