Thinking About Vinyl...

IRLRaceFan

It's been since the mid-1980's since I owned a record player - guess I need to say "turntable" now, otherwise it sounds like I'm talking about a kids toy... Anyhow, all five of the albums I have left from those days are probably not worth listening to, so going vinyl would be a complete "tooling up" process.

The majority of my music is in digital format - 90% lossless (Apple & FLAC). Most of the time I play the files on my desktop computer, which is connected to my receiver through a digital coax (S/PDIF output from sound card). It sounds pretty good, but of course it could be better...

Last month I started buying a lot of SACD's and some HD Tracks - mostly Rolling Stones & Pink Floyd. I use my Oppo to play these and it really is a step up, especially when I use the Cary preamp I picked up from fishbones, with my LSi9's & Carver amp.

As I go further down the "hole", I'm now wondering if it's worth it to invest in a turntable for listening to my favorite, NON melt-your-face-heavy-metal, albums. Of course that also means I need to buy 180-g records, because those are better too, right?

So what should I expect to spend for a good turntable and is it really all worth it?

Would a reasonable price DAC, $500 or less, get me to within 90% of vinyl?


I know there are a lot of strong opinions out there either way, but keep in mind that I don't have the best hearing (deaf in one ear & some high frequency loss in the other). If most say the only difference between vinyl and high resolution digital is subtle, then I'll stick with digital.

Thanks,
Shaun

chumlie

In my opinion you would have to be totally deaf not to hear the differance. 5 or 6 hundred gets you a pretty nice turntable.

gudnoyez

Get you a Music Hall MMf-2.2 it comes with a halfway decent cartridge, you can always upgrade the cartridge at a later time, I have a freind who purchased one and is quite pleased with it, needle doctor has them for $450 with the cartridge thats a pretty good deal, you could also look at goodwill, or craigslist, or your local pawn shops for used ones.

SCompRacer

Good question. Being a subjective thing, you decide in the end. I grew up with vinyl and have more records than CD's. Not all vinyl is recorded well, but the odds are usually better than with CD's. With interest in vinyl continuing to grow, competition is growing to find the used stuff and folks are asking more for it.

It just starts with a turntable, tonearm and cartridge. Then you got your phono stage, it needs to be good. Like with digital the more you spend, the better your playback becomes. Turntable setup is critical to get the best out of the format. You don't need to spend a fortune for either to sound good or really good. With DAC's, I find upsampling options help poor sounding CD's. In the end, the two formats will sound different, and you decide which you like better.

thsmith

Not all 180g is better.

nooshinjohn

Vinyl is not something to think about really. To quote Yoda... "do, or do not". I got back into it after being away from vinyl for more than two decades. It is expensive, frustrating, time consuming, and at the same time, the single most rewarding path I have taken on my journey to better sound. If you are not prepared to commit yourself 100% to the dark path, it will be an agravation. Given the attention and care vinyl deserves, and your ears will be rewarded 100 fold for your efforts.

I prefer the path of vintage tables mated up with excellent cartridges as my path for sonic bliss. Rega, Music Hall and others are a good place to start as well.

Buckle up and enjoy the ride.:cheesygrin:

SCompRacer

thsmith wrote: »

Not all 180g is better.

+1 to that! 120g-140g is the norm. First and foremost is the quality of the vinyl itself; the sound quality is also dependent on the recording, mastering and pressing. I've had many 180g pressings that I sent back for replacement. And there is more than one record label that produces quality recordings. Don't overlook overseas pressings for sometimes as good or higher quality than US pressings. Holland, Japan, Germany, etc. Used to be they would cost less until the word spread. The Steve Hoffman forums is a great place to research recording quality for both vinyl and digital. There are folks over there more passionate about recordings than they are about gear.

SCompRacer

Once you get a table again, you can have fun with the terms, like VTA, VTF, Azimuth, overhang, lateral tracking angle, vertical tracking angle, bias, and loading. You can argue whether direct drive, belt drive, or rim/idler drive is superior. Heavy or light platter, suspended or rigid chassis, single, constrained layer or slate plinths, AC or DC motors, speed controllers, tonearm damped or undamped. Pivoted (single or dual) or linear tonearms, air bearing or mechanical linear arms. Stevenson, Baerwald or Lofgren B alignment. MM or MC cartridge, high or low output MC. Tube or SS phono stage. Diamond or Ruby stylus. Elliptical or conical stylus. How you clean your records, what you use. Favorite record and outer sleeves. Dry brush before and after play. Method used to clean the stylus. Anti static procedure. Us vinyl folk have more fun than a monkey in a mile of grapevine.:cheesygrin:

brgman

SCompRacer wrote: »

Once you get a table again, you can have fun with the terms, like VTA, VTF, Azimuth, overhang, lateral tracking angle, vertical tracking angle, bias, and loading. You can argue whether direct drive, belt drive, or rim/idler drive is superior. Heavy or light platter, suspended or rigid chassis, single, constrained layer or slate plinths, AC or DC motors, speed controllers, tonearm damped or undamped. Pivoted (single or dual) or linear tonearms, air bearing or mechanical linear arms. Stevenson, Baerwald or Lofgren B alignment. MM or MC cartridge, high or low output MC. Tube or SS phono stage. Diamond or Ruby stylus. Elliptical or conical stylus. How you clean your records, what you use. Favorite record and outer sleeves. Dry brush before and after play. Method used to clean the stylus. Anti static procedure. Us vinyl folk have more fun than a monkey in a mile of grapevine.:cheesygrin:

If that doesn't scare him off nothing will!:eek:

chumlie

It puts the record on the table, it does this whenever its told. Not really that scarey.

thsmith

SCompRacer wrote: »

Once you get a table again, you can have fun with the terms, like VTA, VTF, Azimuth, overhang, lateral tracking angle, vertical tracking angle, bias, and loading. You can argue whether direct drive, belt drive, or rim/idler drive is superior. Heavy or light platter, suspended or rigid chassis, single, constrained layer or slate plinths, AC or DC motors, speed controllers, tonearm damped or undamped. Pivoted (single or dual) or linear tonearms, air bearing or mechanical linear arms. Stevenson, Baerwald or Lofgren B alignment. MM or MC cartridge, high or low output MC. Tube or SS phono stage. Diamond or Ruby stylus. Elliptical or conical stylus. How you clean your records, what you use. Favorite record and outer sleeves. Dry brush before and after play. Method used to clean the stylus. Anti static procedure. Us vinyl folk have more fun than a monkey in a mile of grapevine.:cheesygrin:

All of this is what makes vinyl fun and rewarding. I enjoy cart alignment more than anything.

Add clamp vs weight to the list.

IRLRaceFan

Keiko wrote: »

I'm biased, but I do like my Technics SL-1210M5G. You get a lot of bang for your buck with any of the 12xx tables right out of the box and they're easy to tweak. Used records can be had at a reasonable cost, but the venture can get pricey depending on how much you want to put into it.

Cartridges, cleaning machines, brushes and supplies are things to consider also. I went without a RCM for awhile, and now, I wouldn't spin a piece without one. I got about 3k invested in my entire vinyl setup alone. A pretty modest figure considering some of more elaborate rigs out there. Some guys here have that invested just in their cartridges alone.

Vinyl's a pita, but on the other hand it can be a very rewarding and worthwhile experience if you put the effort into it.

Why are some cartridges so expensive? This is basically the needle section or what holds the needle (in alignment), right?
I'll assume the more expensive ones use better materials, but what else would justify spending $3k? Or even more than $100, for that matter.

Is there a standard cartridge design for most turntables? Or asked another way; when buying a turntable, are there models to look for that use a specific cartridge design that can later be upgraded with a "good-guy" cartridge?

From a quick search, a lot of the newer turntables (to me) look alike: Denon, Music Hall, Pro-Ject...
I'm not saying they are the same, although I wouldn't be surprised if one company is making the majority of the turntables that then get customized and re-badged, but I'm wondering if they have standard parts that can be upgraded.

IRLRaceFan

thsmith wrote: »

All of this is what makes vinyl fun and rewarding. I enjoy cart alignment more than anything.

Add clamp vs weight to the list.

Ok, let me ask this now - are you talking about two methods for keeping the needle in contact with the record? As in using a "clamping" or latching device vs. adding mass to the arm?
Does this have to do with "The Clamp" that I've seen mentioned, or am I off base here?

doctor r

The clamp has nothing to do with the arm or stylus. it is used over the center spindle to apply additional contact force to the record itself onto the turntable platter. Helps reduce certain resonances between the vinyl and the platter. Some are just weights that passively apply down-force on the record and some actually grip the center spindle and apply pressure down (weight vs clamp). "The Clamp" was an excellent clamping device designed and produced for a time by one of CPs members.

Toolfan66

thsmith wrote: »

Not all 180g is better.

Boy is this true!!! I for the most part stick with mofi for 180g vinyl when I buy new. Every "Back to Black" vinyl I have picked up just sucks..

SCompRacer

thsmith wrote: »

All of this is what makes vinyl fun and rewarding. I enjoy cart alignment more than anything.

Add clamp vs weight to the list.

A little help from my friends...yup, I left out clamps and weights. I use a periphery clamping system, or outer ring weight along with a weight that goes over the spindle. You don't need it to enjoy vinyl though.

IRLRaceFan

Keiko wrote: »

Edit: How much are you willing to invest in a turntable, IRL?

VERY GOOD QUESTION!
I'm not sure how much I'm willing to commit yet. I do know that I have no plans to re-purchase everything I own in vinyl. I've been going in the digital music server, via computer direction and the convenience (for me) can't be beat; not to mention virtually no maintenance and nothing wears out.

This is for times, like when I listen to an SACD, where I just want to listen to music and get lost in it (without doing anything else). This would account for 20% (MAX) of the time that my system gets used, between my gf, daughter, and myself. So it doesn't make sense for me to buy the best of the best.

Without factoring in the cost of records, can I get a really good "bang for my buck" with a total equipment investment of 1k?

That would (I hope) include any cleaning devices, tools, and other extras I would need to keep everything sounding a good as possible.
It would also be what I would work up to, with the initial investment under $500.

IRLRaceFan

A few more questions for you guys:
How long do the cartridges usually last for?
What other parts typically wear out or need adjusting?
How important is isolation? Do I need a granite slab on top of an air table? <-- That would be extreme, but do people go this far???

SCompRacer

Cartridge life can be in the 5,000 + hour range with proper setup and the records and stylus are kept clean.

With belt drive tables, belts can wear out over time. Direct drives are pretty much maintenance free. Tonearm bearings can be damaged if handled roughly. I routinely check my cartridge tracking force and platter speed, though it never changes. Anyone there that might mess with it while you are not around?

Isolation depends on room acoustics, the floor it is on, where it is placed, etc. I have a suspended wood floor (hardwood on joist construction) so any foot falls and vibrations are transmitted directly into the rack and can cause skipping. I've had to resort to special isolation for that. Concrete floors are best for turntables. Wall mounted racks are one solution.

In regards to cleaning, vacuum is best, however you will find many folks doing hand wash and dry with microfiber towels. A new or used RCM (record cleaning machine) can be a future addition. Main thing is you clean the records in some way. KAB does have an inexpensive EV1 cleaner where you supply the vacuum.

Table wise, belt or direct drive, you decide. The tonearm determines what cartridges you can put on it using a word called compliance. That is a resonance at a specific frequency (or frequencies) due to the interaction of the cartridge and the weight of the arm. Plenty of info out there for what are the best cartridge/arm combinations.

In regards to used tables, like with anything used, buyer beware but even more so. I've bought many used tables/dealer demos and know how to check them out so used does not scare me. Buying used/demo has allowed me to move higher up the food chain versus buying new. Local is best for used rather than having to ship something if there is a problem.

Do you have any local audio dealers that sell new or used gear? Do you need a phono pre amp?

DON73

I know I'm in the minority here but I think you can get into vinyl without taking a second loan on the home. I have about 400 albums and I've been using a Technics SL 1700 with a Stanton 681 EEE cartridge. I bought the TT in 1977 and it's still working fine and with the Stanton cartridge it sounds very good to me. I've also used a Dual 1229Q with a Shure M97 cartridge. Neither of these setups cost me more than $375. If I'm not mistaken the SL 1200 has been discontinued but I think B&H Photo has them for around $1200+. They are always available used on e-bay but the 1200 was a favorite of DJs and you may want to know that before you buy one. Personally I think some of the lower priced Technic TTs would serve you very well and if you decide vinyl is something you really want to get into you can always upgrade. My Technics 1700 is a semi automatic TT requiring me to place the arm on the record and it shuts itself off. There are totally manual TTs preferred by purists, semi automatics and fully automatics preferred by us lazy lower class guys. Good luck with whatever you decide on! VINYLENGINE has a great forum on turntables and they have free downloads for most used TTs.

IRLRaceFan

SCompRacer wrote: »

Cartridge life can be in the 5,000 + hour range with proper setup and the records and stylus are kept clean.

With belt drive tables, belts can wear out over time. Direct drives are pretty much maintenance free. Tonearm bearings can be damaged if handled roughly. I routinely check my cartridge tracking force and platter speed, though it never changes. Anyone there that might mess with it while you are not around?

Isolation depends on room acoustics, the floor it is on, where it is placed, etc. I have a suspended wood floor (hardwood on joist construction) so any foot falls and vibrations are transmitted directly into the rack and can cause skipping. I've had to resort to special isolation for that. Concrete floors are best for turntables. Wall mounted racks are one solution.

In regards to cleaning, vacuum is best, however you will find many folks doing hand wash and dry with microfiber towels. A new or used RCM (record cleaning machine) can be a future addition. Main thing is you clean the records in some way. KAB does have an inexpensive EV1 cleaner where you supply the vacuum.

Table wise, belt or direct drive, you decide. The tonearm determines what cartridges you can put on it using a word called compliance. That is a resonance at a specific frequency (or frequencies) due to the interaction of the cartridge and the weight of the arm. Plenty of info out there for what are the best cartridge/arm combinations.

In regards to used tables, like with anything used, buyer beware but even more so. I've bought many used tables/dealer demos and know how to check them out so used does not scare me. Buying used/demo has allowed me to move higher up the food chain versus buying new. Local is best for used rather than having to ship something if there is a problem.

Do you have any local audio dealers that sell new or used gear? Do you need a phono pre amp?

The closest places to me, that I know of, are in Ann Arbor & Royal Oak. They sell high end new & used, and from what I've heard, they're prices are pretty high. Still, it is a good suggestion to go check some out.

Both of my receivers have phono preamps (I'm pretty sure), but I'm hoping to use the Cary tube pre that got last month. I need to read the manual, but that one might need a phono pre - another thing to consider and check into (thanks).

IRLRaceFan

Hey Keiko,
Didn't you post in another thread that you rip all of your vinyl at high sample rates?
Have you compared the results to a HD Track or SACD?

I can see my self going deeper "down the hole", if I could get similar quality...

Upstatemax

I went to the used market to get into vinyl. I picked up a Thorens TD 166 MKII TT from Craigslist and put a Shure M97xe cart on it for right around $200.

So far, I'm very happy with the setup.

Vinyl was an experiment for me, I wanted to make sure that I could get most of my money back if I decided it was not worth it.

As of right now, you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.

SCompRacer

Mike, I leave my vinyl rips at 24/96. The flac file size is over twice the size of a standard redbook rip. My SB Touch and DAC are hi-res capable. It sounds real good but never quite matches the vinyl, especially in note decay IMO.

I connect the record out of my pre amp (with built in phono stage) to a laptop and record with the free program Audacity. I have Vegas 4.0 but never tried it with vinyl rips. I just use that for video with sound. No expensive sound card is added to the laptop, but it does a great job.

chumlie

Save yourself alot of headaches. Go to post #3. DONE

IRLRaceFan

Keiko wrote: »

I've ripped some vinyl at 96/24 with good results and I can get kinda close to SACD quality. PCM vs DSD, so SACD still has the edge. Much of it still depends on the quality of the recording. Most of the stuff I rip from vinyl is 96/24 then dithered down to 44.1, 16bit redbook tho. A lot of factory CDs suck from a sonic standpoint. Ripping my own from vinyl blows away the crappy commercial CDs the record industry is putting out today. I rarely buy them unless it's SACD or on the MFSL/Audio Fidelity label.

Thanks for all of the info Keiko.
For me this becomes an added bonus, since I'd be able to also upgrade the quality of my digital library (for what I buy on vinyl), without spending $$$ on HD tracks. I can accept slightly less quality from the vinyl rip compared to SACD, knowing I can always pull out the vinyl and have better than SACD (or as good as). It's better than standard redbook CD and of course, blows away .mp3.
I don't put all of my (digital) music on my iPhone, as I like to switch it up, so I could also create Apple lossless copies of vinyl rips and upgrade what I listen to in my car.
This obviously takes more time to do than ripping a CD, but I can see myself doing it for certain music.