Digital music, the pain and the agony

tonyb

Thought I would start a thread to tackle how we all get our computer music up to snuff. What gear we all use, cables, file formats, etc. I know good sound is subjective, but hopefully we have set the bar at a certain acceptable point for SQ.
My own journey started with MP3's downloaded on a memory stick plugged into my AVR. Worst music I ever heard in my life. Took a leap and bought a Sonos system. Converted my MP3 files to apple lossless, and for casual listening, was fairly good, playing through an old Sony AVR and some TAD bookies. But on the big legacy's, left alot to be desired. Replaced the Sonos downstairs with a cullen modded unit, better, but only slightly, connected to my Pioneer Elite by way of digital coax. My computer took a dump, so I had to go buy another. Downloaded 400 CD'S to MP4 in itunes. More detail, better sound, but way too much digital glare. Added an Audio-gd dac to the Sonos, way better results, but still have some of that digital glare thats pissing me off. Phil suggested a tube buffer and hopefully Santa will think I was a good boy this year. Now, MP4, FLAC, WAV, the formats can get nuts. I have some music in flac, most in MP4, difference is slight to my ears so for ease of use I stayed with apple lossless. So as of now, I have a cullen modded Sonos ZP90 connected by a Blackcat digital cable to the Audio-GD NFB3 dac, analog outs to the Pioneer Elite. Still, this in no way competes with throwing a CD in the cdp, getting close, but no cigar. I also have Rhapsody playing 24/96 with decent sound, but still not cd quality. Have no intention of going higher than 24/96 too. My system is a dual purpose, HT/2 channel, so a tubed pre is probably out of the question, the wife is confused enough. Next up is the tube buffer for me, after that, I dunno. Have to wait and see. The convenience factor with the Sonos is off the charts, still need to get the SQ up to snuff, for me anyway, on the critical listening side of things.
So lets hear what you guys are doing and what results you have had. How do you guys get rid of that digital glare ?

steveinaz

I'm still researching network players, but haven't found one that appeals to me in the way of convenience/performance. The Cambridge audio NP30 comes close (flac support, well built, wireless, etc) but lacks in interface/software. My Benchmark DAC takes care of digital glare, so I've got the DAC capabilities covered. From what I can tell, and I may be wrong or missing something; most of these players fall apart with visual interface--IOW, you pretty much have to get up to change tracks unless you sit 4ft from your system, have the eyes of a hawk, or sit with a laptop in your lap. That's a "no-go" for me. Of course another option would be to spend as much on a graphical remote as the player itself--or change cell phones and use the "app"---another non-starter for me.

The question I keep asking myself is "what benefit does streaming offer me, that makes the expense/setup worthwhile?" I can think of a few that actually appeal to me:

1. Having all my music in 1 location (HDD)
2. Capability to play hi-rez formats, but there is a caveat*....(This is my main motivation)
3. Capability to skip around music artist/songs, without CD changes

*Most players won't do 24/96 or 192 without a hardwire connection from the modem. Well---so much for convenience, right? My CD player is already hardwired, why bother? If I want hi-rez hardwired, just buy an SACD player, right?

I rarely "casually" listen to music---for me it's an event, and I give it 100% of my attention, so sound quality is numero uno.

For other people, their motivations may differ from mine, and for them current products probably fill the bill. Just my 2 cents.

falconcry72

In order or operations:


- Source: PC.

- File Creation 1: File must be a bit-perfect representation of the original CD. This means is must be ripped to your computer using bit-perfect ripping software. I use EAC. (Exact Audio Copy)

- File Creation 2: file must be ripped to a lossless format. The lossless format you choose will not affect SQ. Lossless is lossless. Period. I mainly use FLAC. Others include WAV, SHN, ALAC, APE, etc.

- Playback: File must be played in a media player using a bit-perfect playback method; ie. WASAPI, Kernal Streaming, ASIO. I use Foobar 2000 and ASIO.

- Output: USB out if you're using a computer, not SPDIF, too much jitter.

- USB Cable: Wireworld Ultraviolet USB audio cable.

- Asynchronous USB > SPDIF converter: Audio GD Digital Interface. Some DAC's have this built in. I use a stand alone unit so that I can upgrade it or my DAC individually. It also allows me to use any number of awesome DACs that don't have USB inputs. This widely opens up the used market, and there are a ton a excellent old DAC's out there that don't do USB, but have awesome analog output sections and they can sound much better than newer DAC's that have newer chips, USB etc but crap analog sections.

- Digital Cable: Custom solid-core silver digital cable by Pepster. It beat out a Signal Cable digital coax by no small margin.

- DAC: Many good ones out there. I use an Audio GD NFB-7 for its overbuilt power supplies and excellent analog section, including truly balanced output.

- IC's: Signal Cable Analog 2 XLR's for now, Shotgun S3's coming.

- Preamp: Audio Research LS-15 preamp. Tubes rule. 1964 Amperex PQ 6922's.

- IC's: Signal Cable Analog 2 XLR's for now, Shotgun S3's coming.

- Power Amp: Parasound HCA-2200mkii. Bryston 4BSST coming.

- Speaker cables: MIT Shotgun S3's.

- Speakers: Magnepan 3.6R's or SDA-1C's


This is a very revealing system. This PC-based setup sounds as good if not better than my Parasound CDP-1000 as a transport going to the same DAC. It's not a boutique CD transport, but it does a good job. I'm in the process of acquiring a better CD transport purely so I can evaluate my PC setup better.

PC-based all the way for me. Once you get it good, it's hard to go back to CD's.

heiney9

Steve see my post in the other thread regarding your music server woes.

I use a Windows based computer as the server and a Squeezebox Touch as the "interphase" for my music server (generic term). My first question to Steve is, is using your computer as the storage vehicle not an option? You seem to be looking for an all-in-one box solution, which is fine. But as you've found out, the inexpensive units lack a lot and the others are very expensive. My comments to you are based strictly on using an existing computer (everyone has one in their house these days) and adding something like a Sonos or Squeezebox.

Why is this not an option? What are you perseiving as an obsticle using your current PC?

Beacuse I bought a new PC I use my old one strictly for music server duty, you don't have to do that, but it's better than throwing the old PC out. It is hooked to my Wireless router and it streams music to the Squeezebox Touch wirelessly. I am in the process of moving the music server PC down in the basement and then I can have it communicate wirelessly with the router which in turn will communicate wirelessly with the SQB Touch. I have made the 2nd PC a "slave" on my network so I can continue to "rip" music on my main PC and have it saved on the music server PC.

I use a stand alone modded DAC and I also use a stand alone linear power supply for the SQB Touch. I can visually see all artwork and text on the SQB LCD screen or I also use an Android app on my Droid to access the remote functions of the SQB Touch as well as have all the visuals in my hand. You could use Apple's i-Peng app on any Apple product to also run the SQB Touch.

The convenience is off the charts, having all your music at your finger tips. No more getting up to do anything related to changing music. The future has been here for awhile, it's time to embrace it.

H9

P.s. This type of PC based rig is completely different than one that is used via a USB port and generic music player. That type of music player has to be optimized and can sound compromised if proper steps and precautions aren't taken. Perhaps that's where Steve's and others confusion is coming in. The PC is the storage and the interphase to the SQB or Sonos which is the player. There is no sound degredation, I've tried to hear a difference between streaming FLAC files and a cdp transport and I can't................and I'm about as pure and anal as they come.

heiney9

Steve I guess if you don't mind getting up and changing cd's you're golden.

For me, I sit in the sweet spot and have my entire catalog at my finger tips, instantly. If I want to go from Etta James to AC/DC to Rush to The Beatles I can do it right there, no getting up, not swapping cd's and waiting for them to spin up. No fumbling with cd cases or trying to find something. It also allows me to look at my entire collection by scrolling and I can tell you I've listened to a lot more variety than just going to the cd cabinet to pick a few artists.

It's all about convenience and having everything right there. I am NOT a casual listener either and the server makes even more sense in that regard. No interruptions to swap tracks.

Expense isn't an issue $299 for a SQB Touch and you already have a PC. No other costs involved, well maybe another cable and the app if you choose that route and perhaps a small expense $20 for the best ripping program for you PC.

Oh yes, no compromise in sound quality at all if you use FLAC files.

Like I said, only down side is the time to rip your discs onto the server (HD)

H9

steveinaz

I'm using a USB 800GB HDD (FAT32) attached to my laptop, for storing all my *.flac files via EAC ripping; in the \Music folder. I planned on going wireless via my Motorola surfboard cable modem, as the office is quite a ways from the livingroom. I would then have the network player running into my Benchmark DAC.

Brock, is the remote useful enough to navigate without a ton of frustration?

You're picky like me, are you satisfied with the fidelity of the setup? I'm not concerned with cost, if I can find a system that is intuitive, and of high quality.

heiney9

Steve, PM Ricardo or Doug or Rich. They were much the same as you are, hell, even I was. Now nothing but happiness.

steveinaz

What do you use (software) to do your song selection/navagation and what not?

falconcry72

heiney9 wrote: »

...It also allows me to look at my entire collection by scrolling and I can tell you I've listened to a lot more variety than just going to the cd cabinet to pick a few artists.

This was huge for me. I don't mind getting up to change CD's at all, but being able to scroll through my entire collection in a matter of seconds and custom-make new playlists instantly has led me to be much more diverse in my listening. That's a personal reality.


I also want to add that even strict CD listeners would be benefited by at least ripping their music to a hard drive or 2, or 3... That's one good thing about digital music, you can make perfect copies of it as backups just in case. I have my whole collection on multiple drives stored in different places.

falconcry72

steveinaz wrote: »

What do you use (software) to do your song selection and what not?

I just have a logical folder-based system that I click through. No software. I HATE software or media players that want to manage your music for you (ah hem, itunes). I can manage my own damn music, thank you very much! I'll post some screen caps when I get home this evening.

SCompRacer

steveinaz wrote: »

Brock, is the remote useful enough to navigate without a ton of frustration?

If you are asking about Squeezebox remote apps, very easy. Once connected, you view music by artists or by albums in alphabetical order. Click on an artist, all the albums you have are listed. Pick one, push play or select an individual track. On the play screen you can do volume, pause, move anywhere in the track, etc.

I've been to Brock's and Doug's place and no glare with digital music from flac on the 'putie. I don't have any, and all the RAS guys are honest about what they hear. Not a one of them are bashful by any means.:cheesygrin:

Try the tube buffer Tony.

steveinaz

Falcon--
Your system is clientless though, correct---you are playing directly from your computer to a DAC right?

bikerboy

I've been messing with computer audio also and find it trying at times. All the music ripped from my cds is converted to flac. Some of the music is mp3 that I get from my itunes using friends. Someday they'll realize mp3s suck. I use a Twisted Pear Audio Buffalo III dac so I have all the inputs needed except usb. Waiting for the TPA guys to make a usb module to add to the Buffalo III. I've been trying to use a teradac teralink x2 usb to spdif/I2s coverter with little success. I use Mediamonkey as a player in the pc. When using MM4, the teralink and wasapi the sq was excellent but I cant get the pc, mm4 and the teralink to play together at all times. It's so much easier to spin a disc on the shigaclone and listen. Still sounds better than anything I can use in my setup. I still use a juli@24/192 sound card that has spdif out that doesnt sound as good as the teralink usb/wasapi connection. I still need to setup the computer to network to all the pcs in the house. I have about 800 hours of music on the pc so it would be nice to have it available to the whole house. Maybe this winter I will find the time to get it all working well together. It would be nice to control the pc with the droid phone from anywhere in the house. I read the computer audio and mm website to get my learn on. Lots to learn still.

SCompRacer

I do hard wired via Cat5 to a router with my SB Touch, but have done wireless. When I built this place, wireless sucked and I was a gamer, so three walls in every room (except the bath) has a Cat5 jack. Routers are in basement, and wireless doesn't suck now.

Brock was and is currently wireless, IIRC.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

What do you use (software) to do your song selection/navagation and what not?

Squeezbox has it's own software for navigation and running the SQB. It comes with a standard remote control much like you'd see with your cdp. Or if you have an Android based product of Apple product you DL the app and now you have a remote with full color screen, etc. It's easy.

As an add'l accessory Logitech sells a rechargeable remote with an LCD screen built in. You operate the SQB just like you would a cdp. You can also stream 1000's of internet radio programs from all over the world. Music or talk or sports or what ever. I have a Squeeze Radio upstairs that doubles as a network player and clock radio. I can stream thousands of radio stations or from my music server. Completely wireless. I can take it out on my deck and either plug it in for power or use the optional battery pack.

I sense you are making this harder than it is. There is very little obsticle to overcome. You don't have to be a computer wiz to set this stuff up at all.

H9

heiney9

Keiko wrote: »

I can't add a whole lot at this point since I'm only about to get my feet wet here with digital media, but the AIOS media player looks promising. I've been eyeballing and comparing these devices to what I've seen on the web, Iomega and Western Digital and the AIOS seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck in a simple device. Check out the vids on youtube and this link. It appears to have a simple to use interface and miles ahead of the WD TV Live and Iomega. I'll post my thoughts once I get it and have some hands on use with it.

http://www.pivosgroup.com/#!vstc2=products

Mike,

You being a Apple guy , it's much harder to use Squeeze products since the software is really designed for PC's. It can be done for Apple but it's a little more involved.

SCompRacer

The Controller.



My smart phone.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=60914&d=1316994889

Hard buttons control the action on the Controller, touch screen on the phone.

You can also navigate to the Music folder if you wish.

steveinaz

I was curious if you were using SB server--ok, cool. I like simple, I'm a simple guy You know Brock, I was trying to find that remote you are speaking of--but couldn't find it.

heiney9

falconcry72 wrote: »

I just have a logical folder-based system that I click through. No software. I HATE software or media players that want to manage your music for you (ah hem, itunes). I can manage my own damn music, thank you very much! I'll post some screen caps when I get home this evening.

The Sqeezebox software that manages the music sever is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like i-Tunes. I detest i-Tunes and the SQB interphase is user friendly and allows you to manage your music anyway you want. One thing to mention is it will only access one directory so once you set up the directory in the software all the music has to end up there or it won't recgonize it. Not a problem once the user realizes this.

I have mine name "music server" and then all the sub-folders go under that directory. When you are ripping music you need to be sure and set you "output" to that directory and it will automatically create sub-folders, etc.

H9

steveinaz

Yep, that's how I have EAC setup---ripping to \Music folder. Wicked. I hate itunes as well. Maybe the SB controller is the missing link I was looking for. I'm a blind/deaf cantankerous ****, I appreciate the help fellers.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

I was curious if you were using SB server--ok, cool. I like simple, I'm a simple guy You know Brock, I was trying to find that remote you are speaking of--but couldn't find it.

Steve they may have discontinued it. It's really a world of smart phones and apps. You can probably pick one up as a close-out or slightly used.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=logitech+squeezebox+remote+control&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&oe=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=7589404452326423630&sa=X&ei=owe8TpsigYeyAvflnd4I&ved=0CFIQ8wIwAw#

It's as expensive as the Touch. The above link is just to show what it is. Some digging on the net might find a better deal.

H9

SCompRacer

I have no love for Itunes either. I have Media Monkey...and it will convert files to mp3 and export to dear wifes ipod.

I got my Controller used for $140 or $150 from Blake.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Yep, that's how I have EAC setup---ripping to \Music folder. Wicked. I hate itunes as well. Maybe the SB controller is the missing link I was looking for. I'm a blind/deaf cantankerous ****, I appreciate the help fellers.

Steve,

I can't tell you all the apprehension I had to this product three years ago. I was in the same boat as you. But once I took the plunge it was easier and better than I could have imagined. I can't even stand using cd's anymore. Too slow, too much hassle comparatively.

H9

heiney9

Steve, I wish you were closer to one of us RAS guys we could chat and discuss and see it in actual use. Not sure I would have taken the plunge if my brother's hadn't been so cool to use and listen to. The Benchmark is the perfect mate to a wireless streaming music system. The most expensive part of the equation for stellar sound is already in your rig.

H9

cnh

Interesting discussion! Am also considering moving in this direction. Pretty primitive at the moment though. My usual response to digital glare is just to find a pair of speakers (usually vintage) that don't accentuate the high end.

I rarely listen to such music 'critically'. For critical listening it's a tube integrated and a 'good' tube CDP (one that has weight, is well built and that you can swap out some tubes on--to get the equivalent from a DAC based system you'd have to up the ante on your spending).

cnh

steveinaz

heiney9 wrote: »

Steve, I wish you were closer to one of us RAS guys we could chat and discuss and see it in actual use. Not sure I would have taken the plunge if my brother's hadn't been so cool to use and listen to. The Benchmark is the perfect mate to a wireless streaming music system. The most expensive part of the equation for stellar sound is already in your rig.

H9

Well, Santa will get my list tonight..(hehe) you didn't really think i was gonna pay for this thing, did ja?

I still have 1 open coax input available on the benchmark, so it's just a matter of stepping up my ripping game. Man EAC is SLOW.

heiney9

Keiko wrote: »

I looked at the squeezebox, but it didn't really seem like it would fit my needs. Basically, I wanted something with more storage space so I can play lossless audio through my rig via analog. Been using a 30g iPod, but the files are lossy of course. This AIOS looks like it'll fit my needs nicely and it's been getting some really good reviews since being introduced. I'll be using it's built-in DAC for now until I can save for a better external. I'll probably go with one that Steve recommended from audioadvisor, unless something else pops up in the FM. I'll hit you guys up again for DAC advice later on. God, I love to hate and hate to love this place sometimes.

The storage space comes via your PC. Add another drive or a larger drive, storage issue solved. I just don't understand having a completely stand alone unit when we all have PC's in our house. But different strokes for different folks and needs, etc.

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

Well, Santa will get my list tonight..(hehe) you didn't really think i was gonna pay for this thing, did ja?

I still have 1 open coax input available on the benchmark, so it's just a matter of stepping up my ripping game. Man EAC is SLOW.

Steve I don't use EAC anymore, too slow. I use another program ($20) I think and it's actually better, IMO. But for the life of me the name escapes me. Rich, a little help

SCompRacer

Keiko wrote: »

I looked at the squeezebox, but it didn't really seem like it would fit my needs. Basically, I wanted something with more storage space so I can play lossless audio through my rig via analog.

I don't follow.....just get a bigger hard drive in the 'putie. I have hi-res vinyl rips and the Touch and my modded DAC plays hi-res files.

SCompRacer

heiney9 wrote: »

Rich, a little help

That would be dBpoweramp! It rules! At least we think it do.

http://dbpoweramp.com/

Of course, ripping also depends on the CPU...got a quad core, rip multiple tracks simultaneously.

falconcry72

steveinaz wrote: »

Falcon--
Your system is clientless though, correct---you are playing directly from your computer to a DAC right?

Yes. Off the grid, so to speak. I don't need the internet.