TT Cart ideas..

cstmar01

Well ever since I got my TT I've been using the Cart that came with it. Its the Music Hall Tracker MM cart. I bought this phono pre http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?118840-Dynavector-P-75-modded-w-Russ-andrews-PS&highlight=dynavector+phono which I love and really improved the sound.

I've been wanting to upgrade my TT but I thought before I do that maybe I should try out a different cart on my current TT to see what affects it would have.

However, I've never replaced a cart or install one and really don't know where to start. The phono pre would handle MC or MM and I guess I'm a bit lost when it comes to what I need to do the full install.

I was looking at getting a dynavector cart to go with the phono but they can run more than what my whole TT cost new. I'm not sure if it would be smart to run a $500 cart with a $500 turntable or if I should just wait until I have a better table and just get the cart then. Besides Dyna I'm not too fimilar with what carts preform the best or what to look for with them.

I was thinking of this for a christmas present to myself so I didn't want something super expensive but not the cheapest thing on the block. I would probably budget 300-400 max for it.

george daniel

If you don't want to spend alot of money--try a Denon 103R---actually,,I have one that you can try if you like.It's got a nice tone/warmth to it.

nooshinjohn

The Sumiko Bluepoint Special EVO III has served me well. also liked my Denon DL160. You can maybe find a Sumiko Blackbird with low miles on Audiogon.

dkg999

Sumiko BluePoint, the Dynavector 10x5 both are excellent carts. You'll need to research what carts are compliant with your tonearm. Installing and setting up a cart is just tedious, not real hard, but real detail orientated tedious work. I like using the MFSL Geo-Disc as my initial cart setup tool.

SCompRacer

A Sumiko Blue Point No.2 is also a good choice for your MH table. ~ $400 new. I've heard one on Doug's (dkg999) MH table.

doctor r

I would second the Denon or the Sumiko. The Sumiko Bluepoint Special is a HOMC and will run through the MM input on the phono pre while the Denon is a LOMC and need the extra amplification. I am sure your pre can handle either since George is offering the trial of the Denon and he knows your phono pre well.

CSM41

What kind of tone arm are you using? You can't just throw any cart suggested here on any arm and expect optimum results. Arm and cart have to be carefully matched for optimum results.

cstmar01

The Arm is a Pro-ject arm. Per the Music hall website "one piece alloy tonearm for superb tracking ability".

Once again its not a super high end table but was something to start out on. I want to upgrade to a VPI classic when I get a better table.

If I bought the VPI I could have a cart mounted by the dealer at the time of purchase for me. The one recommended by the dealer was a dynavector cart that ran around 650 new and he said would mate well with the system. He said he would be more than happy to mount it all for me and I would be getting a good deal on the table and cart and would trade in my current table. I just thought I might give a different cart a try first before I bought a new table.

And seeing I don't have experience mount a cart I didn't know how hard it would be. I'm enjoying vinyl more and more and know the cart can be just as important as the table but don't want to screw up a 400 cart because I mounted it wrong.

EDUBAG

if i were you, since you already know that you will upgrade the table. i would save the money of a cartridge now and do the whole table/cart upgrade when the time comes. it seems that you already have a good deal with your guy so you already are one step ahead.

save the 400 bucks for now and change everything. however, if you like the current table that you have then maybe try one of the suggested carts. call needle doctor and ask them about choices they are very very knowledgeable and can recommend and even mount on the headshell properly alligned the cartridge for you.

www.needledoctor.com

good luck

SCompRacer

cstmar01 wrote: »

And seeing I don't have experience mount a cart I didn't know how hard it would be.

Real basics here. In order for the stylus to properly track the groove from start to end, it has to be positioned properly at the end of the tonearm. This position varies by arm length. It comes down to the term overhang, which is how far the stylus should be positioned past the center of the spindle. This spec varies by table/arm and is sometimes listed in the specs. However not all tonearms will swing over the spindle where you could easily set the overhang, so you must use a protractor. Usually they are supplied with the turntable. You can download and print them (usually best done with a laser printer), but they don't always print to scale. The better ones have a scale that you can measure with a ruler to determine if the scale of the printed protractor is correct. Or buy one, like Doug suggested.

Then you have VTF, vertical tracking force. When you install a cartridge, the VTF will most likely be off. You may have less than desired or cantilever suspension damaging force at the stylus tip. You first zero balance the tone arm by moving the tonearm balance weight and then set some slight downforce before beginning the alignment procedure. If you don't have a scale, this adds to the things you need to buy/borrow.

The stylus is mounted on a cantilever. The cantilever should be parallel to the body of the cartridge. If it is, you simply align the stylus to hit the target point on the protractor, square it on the headshell snug the screws, set the proper VTF and you are good to go.

There are some videos on youtube you could search for showing the procedure. Ain't that hard, just patience.

DeadFeat1

Grado makes excellent cartridges in a wide variety of prices...

doctor r

SCompRacer offers excellent direction and advice on the general steps needed to mount a cartridge. This is something you can learn and do for yourself with patience, a steady hand (no adult beverages involved), and a good light source. The protractors can be downloaded at the "vinyl engine" website or others. You can also research your tonearms alignment requirements there if you do not have them already (mounting distance and overhang). It is the tonearm that dictates the alignment not the table itself so that is the data you need. The protractors to download will be created based on the tonearm data that you input. You can print one out and use it to compare how your present cartridge is set up to get an idea of what it looks like. Once you start getting the "lingo" like overhang, mounting distance, VTF (vertical tracking force), bias (anti-skate) and seeing how they are set on your table you will have knowledge to carry over to any future TT setups you acquire. Things you initially need and should become familiar with are a simple digital scale ($40.00) for the VTF and a downloaded alignment protractor for your tonearm. Many knowledgeable members here that will gladly give you guidance.

Fongolio

One hint in mounting a cartridge....NO SLEEVES!!! The arm you have is the same as on my Pro-ject 6.9 I think and is considered a medium weight arm. I've had good success with a wide variety of cartridges on it. Some more compliant, some less. Any of the above suggestions are very good, also consider any of the carts in the Ortofon 2M line. Very highly rated and all would work well with your current setup.

cstmar01

Thanks for the info guys. The Dyna that was recommended was the 20X which I could get for 565.00 with the classic at 2200 if I traded in my current table. I bought the table new from the same place so didn't think that sounds like a bad idea.

Thanks for the info. I'm just going to have to think about it for a bit. I don't want to short change my current table and thought it would be a good place to learn how to put on a cart. I know the VPI uses a different type of arm and was told that can be a challenge to learn on seeing its different.

george daniel

Dyna 20's and the Karat play real nice with the VPI tonearms,,I have a re-tipped 20 XL,,,and for the money the Denon 103R ain't no slouch either. YMMV.Good luck--

Dawgfish

I'm also using a re-tipped Dyna 20 XL and love it.

SCompRacer

cstmar01 wrote: »

I know the VPI uses a different type of arm and was told that can be a challenge to learn on seeing its different.

Unipivot arms do add some challenge to cartridge setup. Another term for you, Azimuth. When viewing the cartridge from the front, it should be parallel to the record's surface. With unipivots, the arm sits on a single sharp spike. To adjust azimuth, you have to carefully rotate the counterweight without moving it front or back, thus disturbing your tracking force. IIRC, I read the Classic arm now has an azimuth ring? Been a long time since I had a VPI in hand so my memory may be clouded.


Beware the upgrade path....:cheesygrin: I'm a Dynavector guy and their cartridges are a good match for VPI tables. I've had their entire line up to the Karat 17D3 Mk II so far. One thing, with really low output MC cartridges, you really need a good quiet phono stage to amplify that low voltage. The 20X is available in high (2.8mV) or low (0.3mV) output.

cstmar01

What is the difference then between the high output MC and a low output and what affect would it have on the SQ?

and I've been wanting to do a TT upgrade for awhile but I have a bonus coming in Jan, so I figured why not.

I know I can also do a step up transformer with the low output as well but don't full known what implication it would have on the SQ.

davide256

Many years ago I sold every cartridge under the sun. The Grado Signature MM is best bet in your price range... plan on spending twice that if you want a better well balanced MC from Dynavector or Sumiko. Grado doesn't have the "air" that a moving coil does and will show surface noise more... however MC's like Denon at same price point will sound fake, unconvincing in comparison. I have the Denon 103R, its a benchwarmer while my Grado still lives.

davide256

apologies, Signature was my older Grado, the current model on my TT is Grado Reference

george daniel

cstmar01 wrote: »

What is the difference then between the high output MC and a low output and what affect would it have on the SQ?

and I've been wanting to do a TT upgrade for awhile but I have a bonus coming in Jan, so I figured why not.

I know I can also do a step up transformer with the low output as well but don't full known what implication it would have on the SQ.

For most lo o/p MC's,,the dyna should be fine.

doctor r

The difference in a HOMC and a LOMC is the number of windings (forming the "coil") on the armature at the end of the cantilever. The fewer amounts of windings the lower the voltage output. This seems like a disadvantage, but for sound quality the lower the number of windings, the lower the amount of moving mass attached to the opposite end of the cantilever from the stylus. Lower mass should equate to quicker response abilities for the stylus, suspension, armature mechanism leading to a better response to the groove information.

PSOVLSK

There is a Grado cart in the latest Audio Advisor for about $150. I know nothing about it, but was intrigued when I saw it yesterday.

gmcman

To the OP, you may want to consider a new headshell when you purchase your new cart. Reason being is it's a tedious task to get the cart aligned and it's worth the $$ IMO, to already have one installed...therefore not having to re-align the cart if you want to swap carts.

This is the one I use and provides a good amount of adjustment, especially forward adj which helps with the Technics 1200 TT's if you use the Baerwald alignment. Also allows for rotation around the tonearm.

http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGZHEAD.html

davide256 wrote: »

The Grado Signature MM is best bet in your price range... plan on spending twice that if you want a better well balanced MC from Dynavector or Sumiko. Grado doesn't have the "air" that a moving coil does and will show surface noise more... however MC's like Denon at same price point will sound fake, unconvincing in comparison. I have the Denon 103R, its a benchwarmer while my Grado still lives.

I'm curious if you have tried the Denon 301Mk2? I was going to try the 103R but found the 301 at a good price new. I have heard these two are similiar but just wondering how the 301 Mk2 compares to the Grado Sig?

Not trying to hijack but feel this is good info for the OP as well.

SCompRacer

The tonearm on his turntable does not have a removable headshell.

cstmar01

Thanks for the info guys! I have a better idea of where to go and what to do with the cart. I pulled out the box yesterday and forgot they sent me a protractor with the table. So I do have that and played around for a little bit with that.

cstmar01

Woohoo, a guy is selling his vinyl collection 125+ albums for 80-100 bucks. Says everything is in good condition and jackets as well. I'll be taking a look tomorrow morning.

SCompRacer

Good score for that kind of money!

cstmar01

well turns out I scored 150 albums for 100 bucks.

All shiny and in good condition. Got some Mobile Fidelity, Areosmith, Black Sabbath, Journey, Clapton, Cash, etc. All in all a good selection.

So I've got so listening to do when I finally get some time.